I know the Atheists and agnostics don’t, but what about you believers?

Since we live in a world of polarities, if there is a Christ consciousness then there should be a Lucifer consciousness.

Going a little further, do you think JS literally made a deal with the devil? Could Joseph through his occult activities been offered fame, fortune and women by Lucifer himself? After all, JS presents Lucifer as “the god of this world”. Look at how his cult rolled out, causing havoc wherever they settled.

Why does religion/spirituality have to be defined in a good vs evil framework?

That's a good point. There are people who work to make the world a better place and there are people who shoot people at a shopping mall and there is everything in between.

Most people are just ordinary folks, going to work and making a living to support themselves and/or their families, or staying home to take care of them.

Everything doesn't have to be about good and evil.

No, I don't believe in Lucifer at all, but there is definitely a Lucifer conscious created by people who do believe in him.

I've studied how that character was created and developed over time. It's quite interesting.

I believe there are powers beyond our understanding that go both ways influencing evil and good in the world. All one needs to do is look around and at the news for confirmation of the great evil by virtue of the awful crimes against humanity. Three mass shootings in one week last week alone.

Hate crimes, murders, what isn't evil about those?

Police say all the time when they look into the eyes of a murderer they see pure evil or the eyes of Satan.

I've had some divine intervention in my life where I saw an angelic force preventing an evil spirit from trying to enter my room where I was staying. I felt the angelic force all around me and saw a light countenance in my room (without seeing an actual angel.) While I watched the outline of a hand trying to get past the doorway into my room. The force shield wouldn't let it enter.

I believe it was the spirit of someone I'd known who'd died a couple weeks prior from a murder-suicide. He was coming back looking for me. My neighbors had seen his spirit in their bedrooms the very night before he'd tried to enter mine. The woman downstairs had woken up in the night to see the hand trying to attack her in the dark as she laid next to her sleeping husband. The single woman next door felt his spirit in her bedroom closet. He was in their bedrooms the night before he attempted to enter my room, but the angel wouldn't let him past the threshold of the doorway.

They didn't tell me about their experience until days after I'd had mine. But the timing was one day before he tried to enter my room and couldn't. I was the one he was coming for. The angel was protecting me from him.

He was evil. He had murdered his wife, before taking his own life. His four-year old son found him the next morning, and his mother on the yard of their neighbor's where she'd crawled trying to get away from him to get help.

I could have been next but he killed himself before he could kill me. He told me two weeks before he died if "things didn't work out with his wife, then he might marry me." I was an old girlfriend of his from when I was in high school. I sadly shook my head no, because I knew there was no way I'd be involved with him again. And that was the last time I saw him before I heard about his murder-suicide on the news after it happened.

Evil is real. So is angelic intervention. I know because I've had it intercede in my life several times over. That was only one time. There have been others.

As for Lucifer a spirit? That depends on how literally you understand or interpret the scriptures. I don't really know. I just know evil exists, and is real. But that good can overcome it.

And there is much good in the world, and divine forces at work to counter evil, even when it seems evil wins. It doesn't really because there are larger forces at work we do not comprehend watching over us. The spirit world is real too. When bad people die they don't all go to heaven. Like the murder-suicide. His spirit was trapped. He wasn't free from his sin. He was bound to it. Who knows what happened to his soul after he died? That's between him and his Maker. But he didn't have any power over me. My guardian angel made sure of that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2019 10:04AM by Amyjo.

I know a guy who used to rob houses. Lots of people hide keys outside their house. He never had to look for the keys, he just “knew where they were”. He also had lots of nightmares.

If you lose your keys though, I don’t recommend praying to Lucifer. God will find your keys just fine.

There was a guy in my hometown who had a fatal heart attack on the lawn of a house he was burglarizing. The name of the family home he was robbing? The Godfrey's. The tv was there with him on the lawn when he went down.

Some poetic justice there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2019 03:02PM by Amyjo.

You don't know there is angelic force . You can believe all you want but knowing needs to be replicated time and time again with large numbers of the population That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence . Your " knowing " is dismissed .

Jimbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't know there is angelic force . You can
> believe all you want but knowing needs to be
> replicated time and time again with large numbers
> of the population That which can be asserted
> without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
> . Your " knowing " is dismissed .


Yes, of course, YOU can dismiss someone’s experience, if it doesn’t comport with the experience of “large portions of the population”. But at the end of the day, “large portions of the population” experiencing the same thing doesn’t make that thing true, either.

As for the experiencer his/her self, it isn’t so easy to be dismissive. In many ways, experiencing something is knowing something more certainly than learning the prevailing opinion on something. I understand why someone feels they know something from their experience of something, even if that something is dismissed by others.

Experience is how we know anything, really. That said, I have no idea if Amyjo has experienced angelic forces or merely believes in the possibility of said thing. There is a difference.

"Evil is real. So is angelic intervention. I know because I've had it intercede in my life several times over."

She seems to be saying she has experienced angelic forces. Rather like Mormons like to claim they know the church is true because they have experienced (priesthood, angels, HG, etc.) intervention.

Pretty bold statement of fact, IMO. I believe her like I believe the Mormons.

Exactly. It is a testimony, not an observation.

No.

Lucifer is a cop-out. A dodging of personal responsibility.

Each of us have a thousand small choices every day, each choice in itself insignificant.
Cumulatively they add up and bring us to where we are.

What we choose to pay attention to, what we choose put in our minds, creates the world we live in.
People are today living in heaven, and people are today living in hell, walking the same planet.

Think about it.

What kind of world does the mass-murderer live in?
How did that person get like that?

How is it that you/I are not like that?


And no: these are not "crazy."

"Crazy" people do not have the organizational capability to systematically plan and execute mass murder.

I don't think this matter is (absolutely) necessary for my personal salvation / exaltation, there are no decisions I should make on this because of a total lack of data/evidence.


/sarcasm

I know there are people who lie, cheat, steal, rob, murder, and commit all kinds of atrocities, and then excuse themselves by saying: "The devil made me do it"! Whether or not they really believe in Satan, I don't know.
Personally, I do believe in an actual Lucifer, but I also believe in his counterpart; a supreme creator. The reasons I do are because of actual experiences that happened to me. Both stand out clearly in my mind.
The first was when I was a teenager. I was getting ready for bed, and suddenly, I had a feeling of dread. I was wide awake, I wasn't drinking, didn't take drugs, not on any medication, nothing. I saw, roughly about 2 feet above me, a human form, darker than the night. The darn thing started to laugh! I can't describe it, but it was the most terrifying sound I've ever heard. I could tell it was ready to attack me, so I was praying with all the presence of mind that I could muster, for help. Someone answered my silent cry for help because it suddenly left, up and out of a corner of my room.
Fast forward to last spring. The opposite happened. Since leaving TSCC, spiritual experiences have happened but are positive.
I had a very vivid dream which is unusual for me. Usually I don't remember my dreams. This one, was colorful, and the message was crystal clear about what I needed to do to help my family out of the church, to put our house in order, and what to use. I hesitate to describe the details of it because I'm not fond of getting flamed, but it's turning out to be true. Anyway, that's my 2 cents' worth on the subject.

Well I believe in the Bible so yes there is a Lucifer.

The conversation between Jesus and Lucifer aka Satan on the mountain top show the opposite of Jesus. Satan wanted Jesus to bow down and worship him and Satan would give him the world.

You see clearly that Satan was obsessed with ego, fame, power, control, money... With Jesus had just fasted for 40 days to connect more fully with the heavens.

Two opposites

In the sense you pose it, yes.

Milton wrote the literal truth about the power of our minds when he wrote the passage from Paradise Lost that includes:

“The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.“

(It’s somewhere in Book I, after Satan and his Angels have fallen and are assessing their new home, away from the Light.)

Sorry, no Devil or Lucifer. No 'magic' excuses for what humans call 'bad behavior'!!!

Sounds like a good 'story' too bad no one has written a book about it ----- oh I guess they have the bible!!! I am waiting for the movie that explains the logic of it all in human terms!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2019 02:45PM by spiritist.

After my encounter with the dark dude, I had insanely evil thoughts pop into my head for no reason. I finally had to call on Christ to make them go away.

I am not saying there is not 'negative energy' around.

I really haven't experienced it so I don't know how powerful it is or much about it.

I used to know a guy who could touch objects and know their history. Kind of like the TV show “Dead Zone”. Emotions get imprinted on matter whether good or bad. That’s why some places feel special and some places creep you out. Mormon temples feel good to me, but that’s a case of intentional good imprinting. It has nothing to do with the church’s truth claims, which are paradoxically bogus.

Joseph’s innovation was to bring pre-Enlightenment values into the 19th century. TSCC can’t survive unfettered rationalism.

Would you care to give some specific examples of how he demonstrated this ability?

In remote viewing (military style) we touch an ideogram (squiggle) we draw randomly, some touch it with their finger but most with a pen to get psychic impressions. Not boasting but my hit rate on getting a 'psychic' target in remote viewing for a current study, is close to 100% ---- meaning my being able to touch the ideogram and get about 70% accurate things/descriptors about the target. This allows me to get the correct target 'fairly easy' when shown multiple pics. More experienced people can get around 80-90% accuracy. So I do use a form of 'psychometry'.

However, we move from getting a target to prognostication of some future event and my sub is only giving me around 70% accuracy there. Something to do with experience and my inner beliefs but that is the purpose of the study and in over 30 years there are 'theories' but no 100% solution for why we all can't get 100% on predictions. Best I have heard of is around 80% over a period of time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2019 04:02PM by spiritist.

Lucifer is the bearer of light, the planet Venus, also known as the morning star. The son of morning. I see Lucifer after sunset or before sunrise. It is real.

She keeps ruining Charlie Brown's punts.

Evil is as real as the morning light, which is the Latin meaning of Lucifer's name (morning light.) Light however is equated to love and eternal hope and is found in nearly every NDE recorded where people go to the other side and return to report back that they've experienced the blinding white light and love there.

If the soul is eternal, which I believe it is, and we go to a real place when we die, where love and light prevail ... then I presume there is a place for those who are evil in this life to go to when they die separated from that light and love.

Evil exists as does good in the world. No one can deny that both are real. What forces are behind them other than what we know through recorded history and theology remains a mystery.

That there are evil people and good people and most fall on a continuum somewhere between good and evil, the good hopefully outweighs the evil in most of us so that we can continue to grow as a civilization. We have the power as a society to do the most good at any time in the history of the world. With great knowledge comes great responsibilities. I'm not so sure our mental capacities have kept pace with the technological advances we've made including that of Artificial Intelligence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2019 08:52AM by Amyjo.

I really don't know, but I'm skeptical. I believe that some people choose to do evil.

Yes, and I'm related to her.

No.

Since elementary school, when this was first explained to me by kids I knew, I thought it was an absurdly ridiculous concept (and I internally questioned their sanity, even then).

Later in my life, there was a woman teacher I was friends with, and she belonged to the Brethren Church. (I don't know the formal name for this denomination.) One day I asked her if she really, truly, believed there was a Devil/Satan figure who followed her around, metaphorically "dancing in front of her," trying to entice her into doing evil of some kind or another.

She thought about it, obviously very seriously, for awhile (a couple of minutes maybe) and then said, very seriously: "Yes, I do."

That was the effective end of our friendship. I couldn't be close friends with someone who so deeply believed something I personally believed to be so absurd.

I still don't understand people who "believe in the Devil."

I doubt I ever will.

No, believeing in Lucifer would be akin to believing in

Micky Mouse. He's a fictious character invented to entertain

and frighten the ignorant and illiterate unwashed masses.

Yes, I got really close to having one of those terrifying encounters up close and personal.

Years ago when I lived down south a certain being came to someone I knew very well and announced who he was. She told me he was a white man and laughed at her. He didn't hide his name. I didn't ask any questions because I was really scared when she said who he was. I was worried what to do if the prayer didn't work. But we did the 'rites' and thankfully he didn't come back again.

It all worked...

There is an actual, living, breathing Satan. (Is that close enough?) He used to play in the NHL, but he's long retired. Here's proof –

https://www.nhl.com/player/miroslav-satan-8459534

Finally a rational answer!

I do confess, however, to feeling disappointed by that hardly-demonic goatee. The Prince of Evil should be able to do better than that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2019 12:58AM by Lot's Wife.

Cool!!

If Lucifer were smart, he would create an alter ego for himself and call it the epitome of goodness. He would try to appear as the source of all goodness while sowing seeds of discontent and discord among his many followers of his alter ego. Eventually, he would be recognized as The universal good among all while being the source of much of human suffering and evil.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2019 11:40AM by Elder Berry.