The problem will be not just religious organisations being allowed to discriminate against lgbt, but also religious individuals of businesses, which are many and varied.
Also many gay members of the Morg will be treated to more of victimisation, suspicion, monitoring, discipline and rejection.
All culminating in more misery and human tragedy.
In the UK, a government minister has had to resign his position for publicly suggesting that children suffer more abuse with homosexual parents. It caused public outrage.
The UK does not tolerate discrimination or bigotry against individuals or groups of people.
The USA has made a pigs ear of marriage equality and should be ashamed of the current mess that now exists state by state.
Religious organisations in the USA are given a free pass in tax exemption and discriminatory policies against targeted groups of people, especially the Mormon church.
Utterly shameful for a so called progressive and modern society.

Religion will lose any ability to harm gays in any significant way. Their fight against gays is one of the main reason we are seeing people leaving organized religion in the USA. There are many here that have left TSCC because of TSCC's anti-gay stance.

The USA is in the top 11% of countries world wide when it comes to leadership in regards to gay marriage. This is true even if we accept your rants about religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 09:35PM by MJ.

The UK has legalised gay marriage in England, Wales and Scotland with lgbt individuals and couples enjoying equal privilges with tax, inheritance, benefits, etc.
Why on earth, is a so called modern society like America allowing blatant bigotry and discrimination in some of its retrogressive states?
The lgbt community should be celebrated in a modern diverse society and given all the privileges of equality and protection on a nationwide basis.
Not the farcical circus we have been witnessing re marriage equality state by state with all the confusion and heartache it has caused for those families.
I will say it again, religious organisations, especially the Morg, are directly esponsible for the deep divisions, suspicion and victimisation of these targeted groups of people.
It is an outrage that these socially damaging religious policies may be allowed to continue in one of the most modern, freedom loving societies like the USA.
It had been an utter undignified farce so far, surely the Supreme Court will put an end to it all, and make marriage equality legal nationwide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 10:05PM by flyinghigh.

Again, the USA is in the top 11% of countries in regards to the advancement of gay marriage.

If you want to bitch about anti-gay religions and governments, there you may want to look at the 89% behind the USA and many that are nowhere near the USA's leadership positions.

The U.K. could fit neatly into one of our 50 U.S. states, and not even one of the largest states. The U.S. is a very large, very diverse country. Even the entirety of western Europe wouldn't fill up our country.

http://goeurope.about.com/od/europeanmaps/l/bl-country-size-comparison-map.htm

And if you look at Europe as a whole, 1/2 of the nations have gay marriage, while over 2/3 of the states of the USA have gay marriage.

Why do you think things will get better, especially for young gay youth in the Mormon church?
Why do you think Reyes and Herbert were grinning ear to ear like Cheshire cats, when Utah was finally forced into accepting gay marriage?
The deals have been accomplished at high levels, and religious organisations will continue with their carefully engineered victimisation. And worse, it will be entrenched in law.
The Mormon church and their brothers in the state legislature know this already.
My heart goes out to the dear and decent gay youth of the church, who will have to deal with future church persecution and the tragic fallout from their screwed up families.
God help them from these cunning and vicious church leaders and promoters of hate.
Mormonism and American right wing evangelism is a dark and rotten blot on social progress and harmony.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 11:20PM by flyinghigh.

flyinghigh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you think things will get better,
> especially for young gay youth in the Mormon
> church?

Because they already have gotten better.

Conversion therapy has stopped.

They have stopped kicking people out just for having same sex attraction.

TSCC used to prevent ANY state wide protections. They now have supported protections that cover 89% of the population of Utah. Yes, going from 0% to 89% is a huge change for the better, supported by TSCC.

The LDS members are increasingly supportive of gay rights.

TSCC has been virtually eliminated as an anti-gay political power outside of Utah.

Most of this change has been in the past 10 years which has not given enough time for the old guard leadership to change.

Society is and has changed so much TSCC will need to change or become obsolete. Already many people have left TSCC over this issue.

TSCC will change just as they have changed on polygamy and blacks in the priesthood.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 11:41PM by MJ.

So are you saying that young gay members of the Mormon church who wish to live their lives as their own sexuality dictates, will now be able to enjoy full intimate and sexual relationships with a loving partner of their choice within the church?
If not, what do you suggest they do, given that they have been spoon fed and embraced the Mormon culture from childhood and wish to continue being loved and very much part of their Mormon family?

You asked me why I thing things would get better, not if I think they are perfect. I explained why I think things will get better. The only real reason things are not getting better is because the same people have been in charge for the last 15 year, when most of the change for gays nationally has taken place. Most of the change has been with the youth, both in and out of TSCC. It will take some time for those young people to raise to power inside TSCC.

The real question is to you, why would you think TSCC would not change as society has changed, just as it has done in the past with polygamy and blacks in the priesthood?

As to what I would suggest young gays do is the same I would suggest ANYONE do, leave TSCC, since it is a fraud.

TSCC has improved its stance on gays, it will continue to do that or become irrelevant.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 12:06AM by MJ.

What is really fascinating is that the two most "conservative" judges on SCOTUS are the ones whose comments are pro-gay marriage.

Judge Roberts, brought forth the sexism question. If Sally loves Joe, they can marry. Yet, if Tom loves Joe, they can't marry. Isn't that just prejudicial and sexist? Because the only difference is gender???

Kennedy, pointed out that the dignity, promises and oaths between same sex couples shouldn't be denounced or dismissed as less than because their gender/beliefs are different.

They admitted that although Male/Female has been around for milleniums; Does it mean you're trying to join an institution? or is it all tradition?

I don't think it is that simple a choice, especially for young gay Mormons, who quite naturally wish to continue to be loved and accepted by their very own families.
This is the tragedy of socially bad and divisive religious policies that impact on society.
The Mormon church is playing a carefully crafted game, and the real victims are these young vulnerable church members, who will continue to suffer persecution from their church, but more tragically from their own parents.
I hope I am wrong, but the signs and posturing look quite ominous.

Not until you answer my question: Why do you thing TSCC will not change when it has already changed its doctrine because of societal pressure from both inside and outside TSCC?

The fact that it is a difficult choice does not mean it is not a choice people are forced to make difficult choices of all kinds not related to TSCC.

Bottom line, TSCC has changed and it will continue to change regarding the gay issue. This will come about as younger people that are more receptive to gay rights assume leadership positions, to try to stop the members leaving, to help with missionary work and to stay relevant in a changing world.

Bottom line, many gays of various ages, including youth, can and HAVE left TSCC, so it is clearly a valid choice. This clearly addresses your whining about it being a complex choice by pointing out that people can and do make the choice to leave.

Bottom line, many straight people have left TSCC over the gay issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 12:28AM by MJ.

Yes some do and may transition.
But some don't and they suffer badly with their lives torn apart.
That is the reality that will continue whilst the leadership are allowed to continue with vicious divisive policies.
The role of responsible government is to protect the vulnerable in society.
That includes young vulnerable people in the church who are being victimised and hounded out of their family homes by an irresponsible and socially divisive organisation, because of their sexuality.
These vulnerable and loving people need proper protection and assistance from government and these organisations made to redress and account for the human misery they cause.

The issues regarding leaving a cult are the same for EVERYONE. Singling out the gays for having trouble leaving a cult is intellectually dishonest, not to mention your continuously moving the goal posts is pathetic.

I have addressed your questions over and over and all you do is back away from previous stance to get to the point of saying, well maybe some can't get out. MAYBE.

It is clear that it is possible to get out of TSCC, many, many people do both gay and straight, if some chose not to take it, that is THEIR CHOICE. They do NOT have to suffer, it is well known that people can and do leave TSCC, even to the people in TSCC. If people do not follow the path out and CHOSE to stay in the suffering, that is THEIR choice.

The evidence that TSCC is not true and is abusive to many more than just gays is readily available. If people do not chose to test their beliefs and find out that they are false, that is THEIR problem and THEIR CHOICE. Many people choose to stay and suffer because they believe that the suffering makes them a better person, it is THEIR CHOICE TO DO SO.

You seem to be wanting to DENY them the choice which makes you as bad as you claim TSCC is.

What are you going to do now, try to limit what you are saying to yet another even smaller group of people in a desperate ploy to hang on to your discredited claims?

This board is testament that people CAN and DO leave TSCC, some do not, but that is NOT A GAY ISSUE, it is a CULT issue that applies to EVERYONE in the cult. There are WAY more women discriminated against in TSCC than gays.

BTW, why are you not whining about the women that are discriminated against in TSCC??? Do they not have THE EXACT SAME ISSUES? Again, the issues you are now raising ARE NOT GAY ISSUES.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 01:11AM by MJ.

Yes, there are other groups of people who are downtrodden,stigmatised and feel threatened in many ways within the Mormon church structure.
The church is a rotten and divisive institution to its core and whom habitually lies and fabricates its past history and doctrine.
They have rubbished past church leaders to save their own church positions of power and authority.
While the current leadership continues and are replaced by their elected incumbents, change as you suggest, will be painfully slow, if at all, and over many long years, but it will be utterly tragic for so many who are not, maybe, as strong as you.

I embrace "real" change of acceptance and love for all within this crazy, jacked, Utah culture. Conversations start real dialogue.. Good job to you both.

And notice that you said all that without ranting that it was all about gays. This issues with TSCC is NOT ABOUT GAYS, it is a systemic issue affecting everyone.

_The_ big day will come when a child announcing its homosexuality isn't thought less of by its parents, peers, or community for religious reasons.

Until then, it's an uphill battle. Actually, more like straight up the side of a cliff. Maybe by the end of the century, but 2150's more realistic.

But hooray for religious freedom!

Religion has weaved it's poisonous tapestries into societal communities throughout millenia.
It will take a monumental shift in public perception to accept marriage equality and equal rights into mainstream.
The biggest problem and obstacle by far, is the pandering of governments to organised religion.
This ha to be tackled boldly and decisively if tolerance is to be nurtured.
To give special exemptions to religious groups only adds fuel to the undercurrent of division and suspicions that currently exist between people.
The Mormon church is front and centre in their relentless and vicious fight against gay rights and equality for its lgbt members within the organisation.
Governments should therefore step in to protect the weak and vulnerable people within these organisations who are being constantly victimised and marginalised by these destructive policies which impact so badly on society.

I would say that the "monumental shift" you talk about has already happened and gay marriage is already accepted by the mainstream.

The problem is, as I have stated before in regards to the LDS, the change has happened so fast, that governing bodies are lagging behind.

The change in society has happened, changing the entrenched bureaucracies will follow.

Several years ago I told my TBM friend that it was only a matter of time before every state in the nation would legalize same sex marriage.

At the time several states had legalized it and a couple more states had the issue on the docket.

Now look where we are!

MJ is right.

The change happened in the past and though a dam or two or three may be thrown up, the tide of equal rights will simply flow around and then over that dam no matter the screams, no matter how much flailing, the old dogmas of the past must, will and are dying an inevitable death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 09:40AM by AmIDarkNow?.