I was recently in Canada, and at a gas station cashier counter, there was a basket of poppy pins being sold for Remembrance Day (the Canadian name for their equivalent of Veteran's Day). I remember when that was still a tradition in the US, but it seems largely gone now, and I doubt most people would understand a reference to Flanders' fields. Perhaps the poppy tradition died because of the disappearance of lapel button holes to stick the poppies in.

Perhaps it is also because the military affects so few people directly now. Now our wars are fought mostly by computer controlled machines. Back in 1968 at the peak of Vietnam, we had 536,000 troops there, and that was drawn from a country with half the population it has now. Just try to imagine if we tried to have similar troop levels in Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria - a million soldiers. Now our troop levels are in small thousands, sometimes just in the hundreds.

I was in the Army at the tail end of Vietnam. My draft deferment ran out and I couldn't get a doctor to make an excuse for me or I was insufficiently willing to lie - take your pick. By sheer luck I did not get sent to Vietnam. I did work at a base that dealt with munitions, and had those bunkers with the big dirt triangles piled up along the sides of the buildings, and the big 6 inch thick steel doors hanging on I-beams. (I think the doors were hollow with thick steel plate front and back, but still, they were massive doors). One morning one of the buildings blew up. Even though there was a hill between my building and the explosion, the blast wave was powerful enough to break not only the windows, but the light bulbs in the room. I was temporarily deafened, though I didn't realize that in those first instants, I just wondered what the hell was that noise, and why was it suddenly so silent?

I immediately looked out the window. Those two steel doors were still cartwheeling through the air. They landed a quarter mile away.

My hearing started to recover after several minutes. Amazingly, there were no deaths or (permanent) injuries.

When I got out of the army, there was a 4 month period before I could return to university to finish my last undergrad semester. I got a job at the VA hospital in housekeeping just to have some income. I think everyone, certainly everyone who gets to make decision regarding war, should spend three months working in a VA, and see the damage done. I saw people there still dealing with injuries from WWII, but most were young men injured in Vietnam. Some had PTSD so bad they had trouble carrying a coffee cup for all the trembling, or spent part of the day curled up under a table, crying. Working in a VA hospital really truly takes all the glamor out of war.

Most of you are old enough to remember the "Shock and Awe" campaign at the beginning the current Iraq War, in 2003 if I recall correctly - the bombing of Baghdad. It was advertised as a plan to drop bombs large enough so that the blast wave itself would be high enough pressure that victims didn't need to be be hit by shrapnel to be injured or killed. The blast itself was enough pressure to burst blood vessels and kill people.

There was a lot of high-fiveing during the televised attack. We had been seriously traumatized by the 9/11 attacks, and we needed to seriously kick somebody's ass, and this was finally the ass-kicking. Never mind that Iraq had little, if any connection to the 9/11 attack.

I was considerably less jubilant. I'd been in a blast strong enough to rain broken fluorescent bulbs down on my head, so I had a faint idea of what that was like. I also knew two things about the blasts in Baghdad. First, most of the people literally beat to a pulp by the blasts probably did not die quickly, especially those a little farther from the actual blast. Second, there were no doubt thousands, and perhaps tens of thousands of people who were far enough away that the blast destroyed their eyes and ears, but didn't kill them. My months at the VA make that a particularly chilling image.

We don't throw troops at our wars anymore, we mostly throw money. The Iraq/Afghanistan wars have cost us $7 trillion so far. That's the current administrations' figure, and while I could quibble, that's close enough for government work. There are 70 million people in those two countries more or less, so our spending per person in those two countries comes out to........... I'd tell you to calculate it yourself, because the number is pretty jaw-dropping, but I know that people frequently botch the math with big numbers, so here's the answer: the US has spent roughly $100,000 a piece for every single man, woman and child in both those countries, which are not small countries. That is about 20 percent of the US population. Did we get good value for the money? Did they? (Rhetorical questions - please don't derail the thread. Whether it was deemed necessary or not is an argument for another time and place. My point is the cost of war in both lives and treasure is jaw-dropping)

Pardon my longish rant. This turned out considerably longer than I expected. I went to grad school in Canada after about 15 years of being out of college. I was scrambling that first semester, and looks forward to Remembrance (Veteran's) Day as a chance to do laundry, get some grocery shopping done, etc. When I headed to the grocery store, I discovered that EVERYTHING was closed for the day. A few gas stations were open, and that was it. It was Christmas Day-level of stores being closed. I think their holiday is becoming more Americanized, but in the 1980s, it was very clearly a solemn national day of remembrance, and I guess I came to agree with them on that.

"The Band Played Watlzing Matilda" - Eric Bogle (a reprise for Tevai :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnFzCmAyOp8

Never Again may be too much to hope for, but Never Forget we can do.

Thank you for your service. I remember the crump of distant bombs exploding in London during WW2. Mostly though I recall the sound of shrapnel from exploding AA guns falling to the ground like hailstones. I never ever take the charge to war lightly and deplore the "let's kick their butts" attitude.

A deeply perfect tribute to the sacrifices made by good guy veterans everywhere.

Thank you for this, Brother of Jerry.

"The soldier above all others prays for peace,
for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear
the deepest wounds and scars of war"

Douglas MacArthur

BoJ, great exposition. Bravo!


I don't consider myself a war-monger, but I am not a pacifist.

I'm mostly a loner who swivels his head a lot to take in all the scenery. Humans are strange beasts, and when they are gathered into herds and set into motion, the trampling can be so deadly.

What little I comprehend regarding man's ability to wreak havoc comes from literature, but I believe what I've read. And I recognize the tendency for repetition, no matter how clear the futility of it all.

I'm hoping that autonomy becomes a catch-word. I hope for the day when the basic necessities are within each individual's grasp and control; when men can turn their backs on tyrants without fear of reprisal.

I dream on and on...of humans doing good...

Thanks for you service. My Dad was in the Korean war. Had to get him pretty liquored up to get him to tell stories. 18 year old kids had to grow up fast in war. Can't imagine. Living in Texas, Cops stood in busy intersections handing out Poppy's on Remembrance day.

I had an uncle who fought in WWII. That was all I knew about it until I was an adult. He finally told me that he had been a Belly Gunner in a B-17 in the South Pacific. And he only told me that to explain why he had poor hearing. (That and that Grandpa was to cheap to buy mufflers for the tractor.)

Another Uncle was a Paratrooper in WWII. North Africa, Italy, and he wound up getting strafed by machine gun fire on his way down at the Battle of the Bulge. By the time I was in my teens he had drank himself into a mental hospital. And finally to death.

By pure luck I was post Vietnam draft, and had no desire to fight anyway.

But to those who did serve, Thank you!

There are two sides to every story and there is an ugly side to the whole poppy thing. In fact, it becomes so severe in many cases that some people call it "Poppy Fascism". Newcasters and celebrities in the UK receive abusive and threatening letters if they don't wear them on TV. I know some people will point out that the WWII troops fought Fascism, but British Fascists and Ulster Loyalists love the poppy and they are pretty much that.

The church is to the fore with this. I used to skip Remembrance Day services at the LDS. People would demand you wore a poppy if you didn't (and I had several objections including that the money raised barely goes to veterans). Then we would have a bunch of speakers tell us how grateful we should be to be free, even though we lived in a country which had been conquered and is still ruled by England. I pointed this out to an American speaker - talk about a mic drop!

At this time of year, the LDS goes full State Shinto in some countries.

One or two people wore white poppies instead of/as well as the red ones and were given abuse by members.

I spent my entire childhood being forced to wear one. It was supposed to be remembrance but ended up as political militarism instead and support for war. My father was war wounded, never got a penny off the poppy people, but even he bought into this. I despise the poppies and all they stand for. I remember the people who fell but the cult of militarism, just no.

A couple of other things...

When I was growing up, the tradition was to wear the poppy for a week. Now it's a month. Sometimes people wear them all year. Our teachers would punish us if we didn't wear one during week.

The original Remembrance Day commemorations were by veterans to celebrate the fact that they had survived.

As I got older I usually pretended to be sick or didn't turn up on Remembrance Sunday at the church.

It has a very dangerous political undercurrent to it, which has gone rapidly from a memorial to u questioning support for government military policies. Military charities have millions and yet there are ex-soldiers sleeping on our streets etc. Something very wrong there.

Not sure which country you are in that is "ruled by England". Both Scotland and Wales have their own parliaments for most internal affairs and both send members to the parliament at Westminster. Both countries representatives there can have a say in internal English affairs but not the other way around. Puzzled.

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure which country you are in that is "ruled
> by England". Both Scotland and Wales have their
> own parliaments for most internal affairs and both
> send members to the parliament at Westminster.
> Both countries representatives there can have a
> say in internal English affairs but not the other
> way around. Puzzled.

Here are the numbers of MPs in the UK parliament, broken down by country.

England: 533
Wales: 40
Scotland: 59
Northern Ireland: 18

Total: 650

The numbers speak for themselves.

The parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can all be shut by the London Parliament. The Northern Irish Parliament has been shut for years.

> Here are the numbers of MPs in the UK parliament,
> broken down by country.
>
> England: 533
> Wales: 40
> Scotland: 59
> Northern Ireland: 18
>
> Total: 650

That's how it works in a representative democracy. The fact that Provo, Utah only has one or two representatives among the 435 or so in the House does not mean Provo is oppressed.


------------------
> The parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern
> Ireland can all be shut by the London Parliament.
> The Northern Irish Parliament has been shut for
> years.

Yes, and the US federal government collects taxes in all states and can even dictate that little black girls may attend white schools. That is how it works in a constitutional republic.


-------------------
The Scots can leave the UK anytime they want. Their membership in that union is not quite the same as the Uighurs' status in China.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Scots can leave the UK anytime they want.

I don't usually post on politics, but this isn't true. It's not the USA, where any state can leave at any time. Look at what the UK did to Ireland. They would start a war in Scotland before letting it go like they did there.

NaD,

You have it backwards. The US states do not have the right to leave the union. That is the principle over which the Civil War was fought.

Meanwhile, the Scots can leave the UK whenever they want and may well do so because of Brexit.




https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/11/snp-scotland-independence-referendum-brexit

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/scottish-independence-and-brexit/595234/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/14/scotland-could-leave-the-united-kingdom-over-brexit-and-green-energy/

A claim hardly borne out by the free referendum on independence that took place in Scotland a year or two ago.

The only thing the numbers speak to for me is that England has a vastly larger population than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. In 2018 the population of Scotland was 5.47 million. 3.184 million in Wales, and 1.882 million in Northern Ireland. England had a population of 55.98 million. Stands to reason there would be more English MPs at Westminster.

I'm a bit saddened that Americans have no mental connection anymore with the Great War. That is its real title, not WWI, which did not come about until after WWII. We see it as WWI, but UK and ANZAC see it as the Great War, the War to End All Wars. They are understandably still traumatized by it, considering that whole towns and villages lost all their young men. And considering that the remains of approximately 50,000 men were never recovered, having been atomized by artillery, or permanently buried by a direct hit on their trenches. We Americans, however, entered the war when it was almost finished. We lost relatively few, compared with the UK and the others, but like to gloat over having "won" the war.

I retired in 2017, after working 4 years at Ft. Gordon with four branches of the US military, and with uniformed Canadians from their respective branches; there were also a contingent of UK forces there. The Brits and Canadians there begin passing out poppies in October, asking for a donation, which they use to fund the annual "Commonwealth Ball." All the Canadians and Brits wore the poppies on their uniforms. But the Americans had no longer any recollection of the poppy tradition, hadn't heard of Remembrance Day, had no idea what it was, and only knew Veterans Day, where we honor only the Americans who were killed in all wars. And they only know it as a time to drink beer, watch sports, and hit the Veterans Day sales. So I was always embarrassed, especially when I hear them ask, "Why are you giving out poppies? What's that all about??

When I was a kid, it was called Armistice Day, and that made more sense, since it was to remember the end of the Great War.

I don't remember poppies at all in the 60s but I remember a minute of silence at 11:00. Even on TV and radio.

Ah yes, the Great War or the World War--terms from back before we learned we needed to number them.

WW1 was the great modern tragedy. Without it there would probably not have been a revolution in Russia, the destabilization of Eastern Europe, and the German resentment that fed into Nazism. It killed the idea of Europe and sowed the seeds of future disasters.

And it was probably avoidable.

Far more than 50,000 of whom no trace was found. The Mennin Gate memorial in Ypres shows the names of 50,000 just from that sector alone.

Thank you Cludgie. Do you know how demeaning it is to have someone tell you "If it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German"? I am very proud of British contributions, especially to WW2. In my mind the war was not won by any one country but by every single person who contributed not matter their country, and to me chiefly by my 21 year old cousin who lies buried in Normandy.

In my mind, WWII was won by a combination of Russian manpower, American industry, and British intransigence. Without the ridiculous, almost suicidal, stubbornness of your country we might all be speaking German.

As Churchill is reputed to have said to German ambassador Von Ribbentrop after threats: "Do you know why a British bulldog has the squashed up face it has? So it can breath without letting go."

Yes. If Britain had accepted German terms during either the Phony War or the Blitz, the Soviet Union would have been knocked out of the war perhaps as early as 1941. In fact, Stalin would probably have sought a separate peace as Russia did in 1917-1918 and as the great tyrant himself had done in 1939.

Then the United States would have lacked both the manpower to defeat Germany and the "base" on which to marshal, and from which to deploy, forces for an invasion. Without Britain and its thankfully irrational people, Germany would have ruled Europe and we would live in a very different world today.

I was raised by a mom who had lost her baby brother in WW2. He was killed in Italy and is buried there. I carry his name proudly as my middle name. Mom's other brother came back minus a leg. A myriad of other family members also served. So Rememberance Day is personal for me.

Isn’t poppy cultivation illegal? That’s why they had to rip out the flower beds of the Monticello. Growing illegal drugs on federal property was a problem. It doesn’t seem to be a problem for Brits. And they call us rebels.

The California state flower is a poppy.

Of course, it isn't the variety that is cultivated in Afghanistan, parts of Iran, what used to be called the Golden Triangle, etc. I've been in some of those places and seen the fields, the way the farmers use razor blades to drain the sap from the bulbs, how they cook that sap over open flames to concentrate the essence for transport to the sophisticated groups who distill it, package it, and ship it to the final markets. Needless to say, the farmers make very little from the drug: the big money is further downstream.

A sidelight on "i didn't forget"s comment on Poppy Fascism, about undue social pressure to wear a poppy. First, much the same thing happens in American politics with US flag pins. Politicians are pretty much required to wear one to prove their "patriotism". And of course refusals to recite the Pledge of Allegiance during WWII made it clear to the Supreme Court, which ruled that schools can't force students to recite the pledge.

Second, long-time (as in decades) fixture/icon in Canada's Hockey Night in Canada, Don Cherry, went on a rant last Saturday about immigrants to Canada not wearing a sufficient number of Remembrance Day poppies in his opinion. Don has long had a reputation of shooting from the lip, but this time it got him summarily fired. You can google any number of news stories about the incident. It was a very big deal.