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Posted by: iplayedjoe ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:12PM

Which defector from the early church did the most damage to the organization and why?

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Posted by: shodanrob ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:13PM

William Law maybe? Was in the first presidency. Found out about Polygamy. Left and started the Nauvoo Expositor. Was going to out Joe for his idiocy. This set the events in motion that led to Joe's murder...not martyrdom.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2015 03:33PM by shodanrob.

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:25PM

Law may have been most damaging to Joe personally, but he probably helped the organization by clearing the way for Brigham's reign. The organization might have died out if Brigham hadn't run off to the desert.

Thomas Marsh leaving didn't seem to do too much damage, but the church might have turned out far different if he had stuck around...assuming Brigham wouldn't have had him killed or something.

The anti-banking fiasco combined with major defections in Kirtland over changing stories, changing "revelations", etc... had a big impact for a time, but they managed to recover.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:44PM

"This set the events in motion that led to Joe's murder"

Given his orders in a time of great sanctity for the first amendment, couldn't that be considered death by natural causes?

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:19PM

We don't know yet.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:44PM

There is no way that the people/church/doctrine that Joseph Smith's church and teachings traveled with the Brighamites. The organizations, teachings, powers of magic rocks, underwear, priesthood... Were all lost when Joseph died.

Joseph's Brother William and Mother went with the Strangites, Emma stayed and helped organize the RLDS and promoted her Sons once they were old enough. The loss of the papyrus was because Emma had to sell it for $50 to pay for food on her table, so she didn't see anything sacred in it. Yet, she kept the Joseph Smith translations of the Bible for the RLDS which is why the LDS still used the KJV of the Bible (even though they quote the JST in the Bible footnotes, they never use it or teach from it).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2015 03:44PM by dydimus.

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Posted by: Heretic 2 ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 03:47PM

I vote for William Law. He printed the paper that provoked Joseph Smith to illegally destroy the press, which landed Joseph Smith in jail and gave the mob a chance to make sure he didn't get off scot-free yet again.

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 04:04PM

But if he had not co-founded the paper perhaps TSCC would have imploded rather than consider JS a martyr.

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Posted by: Heretic 2 ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 04:36PM

It is kind of like the death of Joseph Smith destroyed the original Mormon church and half a dozen groups immediately split off. It could be argued that the Brighamite church and RLDS church were nothing like the original church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2015 04:37PM by Heretic 2.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 05:35PM

I'm with Heretic 2 on this one. In the very waning days of Nauvoo, Joseph was becoming more and more like a Rev Jim Jones or a David Koresh. He may not have been planning on mass suicide, but he was checking out Texas, and West areas to escape to.

Remember he actually did run away (again) and only came back because the "followers" this time were not going to get together a militia to body guard him and Hyrum like they did for his Missouri escape.

Joseph's death became the "martyrdom" that help secure and cement Mormonism(s) RLDS, Temple Lot (Hickites) Strangites, Williamites and of course Brighamites.

Brigham though got all of the European converts out of lying, deception and not revealing things like polygamy, the Kirkland Banking scandal, Missouri squabbles, etc... He also got to sell his property and the churches while leaving another 2/3's of the Nauvoo Mormons to either abandon their homes, farms, etc... without compensation... or to stay and try to survive against unfriendly non-Mormon neighbors.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 04:08PM

From Joseph Smith's church I think it was Brigham Young.

Snake-in-the-grass Brigham coiled up and quietly watched Joseph spiral downward and then made sure Joseph was cornered by the "right" people.

That's my latest theory anyway.

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Posted by: torturednevermo ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 05:52PM

How about Eric K, the founder of this site.?

At least 'one of' the damaging ones, anyway.
And hip hoodely hooray for that. Go Eric!

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:12PM

"How about Eric K, the founder of this site?"

The OP asked about defectors from the "early church."

Are you sayin' Eric's really old?

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Posted by: torturednevermo ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:25PM

Oops. :)

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 06:10PM

My vote goes to the Tanner's and their Utah Lighthouse Ministry. The sheer volume of primary sources the Tanner's have uncovered makes them the people who have caused the 'most' damage.

I definitely give a lot of credit to William Law and also to Fawn Brodie's masterful book about Joseph Smith, No Man Knows My History.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 06:23PM

A Defector to me, is one who knew that the premise of Mormonism was false. So the witnesses Rigdon, Cowdrey, Harris, etc... They defected. William Law and others defected because he found out that Joseph wasn't a prophet and was lying so that he could keep up the dirty secret of polygamy and polyandry.

The Tanners, Fawn Brodie and myself found out what we were told was lies, half-truths. So is that defecting? We all chose to dismiss the lies. Now some, Like Quinn, Dehlin, others know the history and were exed. Defection was forced on them.

Bushman, Grant Palmer, Todd Compton, they still believe... Yet they have presented "truths" that I never would have found on my own. John Hamer, he found "truths" yet he went to another Mormonism. Is he a defector?

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 09:15PM

I don't share your feeling that "Bushman, Grant Palmer, Todd Compton" still believe. Rather, they may well be like Thomas Stuart Ferguson and do not wish to face the strong backlash of public rejection and ridicule along with possible loss of livelihood and family support which would surely follow after honestly stating their real view of Mormonism.

For those deeply embedded in Mormonism, the safer and much less painful course of action is to keep one's mouth tightly closed and "play the game" while suffering in silence.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 06:15PM

In terms of anti MORmONISM = LYING about MORmONISM and making things rough for MORmON Members , Smith and Young dramatically outpaced all anti MORmON mobs combined. Young was directly responsible for (killing) the deaths of more MORmONS with his gratuitous reckless emergency MORmON exodus than any one else ever, in spite of all of the lauding that is directed to Young for the really needless and deadly effort. It amazing how effective that some one can be at leadership when they are absolutely obsessed with getting their way and they do not have a care in the world about how many people may die on the way to their getting their way.

Then there are all the other people that Young simply had executed/murdered.

Smith and Young's outrageous actions and statements are still a liability to the MORmON church even today. These two did more damage to the MORmON cause than any defector ever did.
The defectors would not have had much to talk about /cause/ justification except that Smith was such an outrageous fraud.

Brigham Young knew that he had to change venues (locations) IF he was ever going to be able to continue in his much desired Joe Smith inspired MORmON based debauchery. Smith had ended up very dead for all his outrageous self indulgence / "defections".

It is simply amazing that it worked, that the MORmON church actually amounts to anything today. It is amazing that STUPID / faithFOOL people - MORmONS have done so much to overlook and to compensate for the gross corruption of Smith and Young.

For me personally, it was Gordon Hinckley that drove me out of the MORmON church, because Hinckley was so obviously officially defecting on so many key / core MORmON doctrines, in Hinckley's effort to make MORmONISM more generally marketable. I suppose that I should be thankful to Hinckley for that. I would like to think that I would have arrived at my exit from MORmONISM on my own anyway. I never would have listened to any of the Tanners "lies" about the MORmON church, except that I knew that No body was lying about "THE" church more than its MORmON leaders were.
Are those MORmON leaders "defectors" , or just MORmON ASSpostHOLES?

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 10:05PM

I still wonder what Hinckley thought he was doing. He thought he was fooling various media people, and I suppose he did fool some of them some of the time. But he had to know that many members knew he was lying. He took for granted that they would just bow their heads and say yes. He absolutely could not identify with he thoughts and feelings of average Mormons, having been raised up to live in luxury and take their support for granted.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:08PM

No one has mentioned Frank Cannon.

He hit back hard against the Morg during polygamy's waning days.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:21PM

...you gotta mention the Stenhouses and Ann Eliza Webb too.

And nobody's mentioned John C. Bennett.

But if the question is "Which early defector damaged the church the most," the answer is none of them, because the church survived and prospered despite all the defectors and exposers. The various defectors have caused a lot of members to leave, but the church has always stuck by the fraudulent story of its origins and gained enough converts to offset the damage caused by the defectors.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:19PM

He's from the oily church.

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Posted by: sampsonAtard ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 07:52PM

We must nominate Elder Markie Hoffman who inflicted double damage to the so-called Church.

His most spectacular performance was splattering the blood of two innocent people all over a SL office corridor and a lawn in Holladay.

But his claim to the title of most damaging defector has to rest on his brilliant con of a Mormon prophet which was caught on film.

Behold the master forger humbly offering his historical fakes to Prophet Spencer who peruses them with a loupe.

The damage done to the doctrine of Divine Inspiration is some kind of serious coup.

(and yeah... how did a bloody forging killer get up there in the inner sanctum of Mormon grand poobahs?)

Some serious damage.





MARK HOFFMAN
Total Articles: 12
Topics surrounding forgerer Mark Hofmann. Hoffman was able to convince the Mormon Prophet and Mormon Leaders that documents he had were originals. A murderer, Hofman proved that Mormon leaders were uninspired in allowing a criminal within their inner sanctum.

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Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: June 11, 2015 10:50PM

GBH

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Posted by: sonofperdition ( )
Date: June 12, 2015 12:39AM

If Bryce Harper left with how good he is playing he could really do some damage. "That's a clown religion bro."

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