There's some drama going on over on reddit over New Name Noah. It started on Tik Tok, a new video app that's a cross between twitter and YouTube. I'm the only one I've seen on reddit who is willing to make original posts asking people to give Mike Norton some credit and ask for proof that he has engaged in predatory behavior before they assume him to be a predator of women and not just some socially awkward Aspie, but we live in progressive times where asking for evidence from an accuser is considered man-splaining.

John Dehlin followed me. At first I was excited that maybe he'd like to hear me out. He slipped into my DMs but only to ask me if I was somebody he knew. I said no, but we've met before and I'm a huge fan. He didn't answer. I listened to his latest episode, Unlearning Mormon Misogyny, and I felt not just condescended to but punched. Cuz as I said, I'm the only one I have seen still asking for people to go look at the evidence for themselves and get a whiff of what actually happened in the tone and order that it happened in. So when John defers to one of his guests who has no expertise in anything who says, and I quote, "A lot of the time victim blaming really comes in the form of 'well what was the conversation like before he sent the unsolicited pic' or 'how were you dressed' -- 'were you flirting with them?' -- these questions trying to get to the bottom of it, I think that they're trying to be, I don't know, clever and like look for proof, which I can understand on some level but when it comes to things like this, This isn't a court of law. We don't need this airtight evidence. This isn't CSI. We need to listen..."

IDK, maybe that's not directed at me personally, but I was definitely part of the list of guys asking for evidence who prompted the statement. I wanted to know if the pic was unsolicited and if it even had a dick in it. Mike posted the damn thing on his Instagram to show everyone that it is not what this woman says it is, and I have to say it's massively underwhelming and Instagram won't be taking it down for obscenity. Doesn't John Dehlin have a doctorate in psychology now? The episode didn't get into anything about crime statistics on sexual harassment and rape or why men and women think so differently or how we approach the dating game with such different ideas. No, just, you're all misogynists, believe women ya dodos, here are some pod-casters and all of Mike's accusers save Jessica Justice. Really, John? You fucking coward.

No one even knows how this thing started. To make a long story short, New Name Noah mispronounced Kwaku's name. A lot of people did. American Anglophones are not familiar with the name, so they tend to anglicize it. RFM mispronounced the name. Those people were informed that Kwaku is a common name in North Africa, and mispronouncing it is racist, so most people shaped up right quick, but NNN was feisty in keeping with his personality until he finally gave in. Kwaku is that black college student who did those TITS shows for FAIRmormon. He's kind of an asshole, so IDK why people made his name the most important takeaway from everything going down late last year. We had FAIR greenlighting absolute smut and slander and the drama reached its peak when John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnells got what looked like death threats, although the hosts of TITS swore it was just a meme for laughs to superimpose John's and Jeremy's heads on Nazi characters in a gif who then have their brains beaten out. But anyhow, there were a bunch of Tik Tok creators, Maggie being the chief ringleader, who felt it necessary to go after NNN for this, and he wouldn't apologize to them. So they found out he had sent an exposed photo of himself to an egirl who goes by the name Jessica Justice, and from what Mike says they were using that photo as leverage to make him apologize for Kwaku's name. It's Quay-koo, not Quack-oo, ya white supremacist. It became this whole thing on tik tok and slowly started to spill over onto reddit. Another woman named Sarah, who also appears in the Mormon Stories interview, came forward and shared screenshots of some untoward advances that NNN had made on her on her Instagram photos, and she posted her story to reddit. I would not have phrased those pick up lines in the way that Mike apparently did, but after speaking directly to Mike, a lot of the context was left out from what I gather she didn't even tell him to buzz off once. I think they shared a facetime call even on Valentine's Day of all days and she still failed to tell him how uncomfortable and unsafe he made her feel, which I don't think was his intent. The best I'm getting from anybody on reddit about why it's still ok to cancel Mike over this is that he supposed to be able to read her mind and know how he is making her feel. She sat on her feelings until she heard about the Jessica Justice stuff, and then she came forward to add her 2 cents to the pot to force Mike to repent or force him out of the community if he woudn't.

All these things together felt like Mike's big cancellation, his MeToo moment. Only, from what I was able to gather, this is it. It's this egirl saying Mike's dick pic was not welcome, and this other girl saying his pick up lines were raunchy and his fame made her feel too unsafe to tell him to go away. There's an assumption that there are many many more, but I think they're just referring to people that Mike has been rude to over the years, especially over the Kwaku stuff. Maybe there's a whole lot more to this, but I'm not seeing it. No one is giving me more to go on or even pointing to where it may be found; they're just doubling down on gender commie rhetoric that women have been oppressed long enough and it's time to believe women cuz not a single woman in all of history has ever make stuff up or made a big deal out of nothing to get back at a man for spurning her.

Of course sexual harassment happens all the time, but why? Is it because men are all predators or is it because the sexes don't think the same way about courtship? It is now common knowledge that Mike is a predator, but no one looked into this before they just decided that. No one is telling even as much as I just told you guys. It seems like everyone is just scared to contradict a MeToo accusation, even just to put it in a tone commiserate with the gravity of what happened, because that's a regressive thing to do and the community will turn on you if you dare.

Mike has been kind to me, and he's been part of this community since I joined it. He's used questionable tactics to go after the church, but I don't care. The church dicked me over. I still haven't been able to have a rational conversation with my family about why I think what I think. My father, who was in my home stake's presidency at the time, canceled my recommend the day after I told him, so I couldn't go see some of my best friends or my brother getting married in the temple. At least someone is fighting this bullshit. At least someone is filming what they do in that building. At least someone posts his number all over social media so that suicidal people can call him. Has Mike just been doing all of this to get into people's pants? There's no evidence of that. No one accusing him of anything has said any such thing, but that's what a lot of people seem to think now because the OG posts were vague and no one was allowed to question them.

I posted something trying to aggregate the evidence. It wasn't the best, but it was something. It was getting upvotes, and the mods took it down. It was the only thing on reddit trying to get to the bottom of all this drama. The only goddamned thing. I feel like I'm the only one who gives a shit about watching a man get communal treatment commiserate with the gravity of his crimes, which are exactly none in this case. This is just drama, grade AA high school drama from the juvenile land of Tik Tok, and now on top the reddit mods censoring me, John has slapped his big stupid seal of approval on this whole thing by refusing to challenge these women even a little, even a little. I've never seen such fucking cowardice in my life. I don't need to see these women roasted or anything. Just push back to any degree to make sure that you're not being taken for a ride or that they haven't overlooked something obvious that may explain the situation better. Or at least tell the story from their point of view and tell the story from Mike's point of view and let listeners decide. What the hell even was this episode?

I re-listened to New Name Noah's Mormon Stories interview, and it is clear John was always jumpy about having anything to do with Mike, so this is how John washes his hands of the whole thing and protects the Mormon Stories brand. He can do that if he wants: it's his brand. But this episode could have been so much than it was. What it was a bunch of ladies with expertise in nothing except being ladies having a round table circle jerk about how they feel about men generally while a PhD who could contribute valuable expertise to the conversation or at least occasionally speak up for why men are the way they are and what some of these stereotypical situations feel like from both sides opines about how straight white cisgender straight men have done enough damage and it's time to believe women. In other words, he rolled up his diploma and shoved it up his ass and nodded in agreement the whole time. Who does this win over, John? Every man knows that agreeing with his woman while you are in the way with her is the quickest path to avoid contention, but it's not always worth it. Sometimes you gotta say, way a minute, Mike isn't a predator, he's only guilty of at most what so many of these other asshats have done while trying to pick up girls online. Maybe that was John splitting the baby. Maybe not letting Mike's accusers roast him by name was his grand compromise. We'll just passive-aggressively reflect this back on all men and scold them all for their failures to be good men (even though every dick-weilding human I saw in the comments of the original Sarah post on reddit was nodding in agreement with her, coming after me and others for daring to want to pause and back up and get a grip, or biting their tongues), and not once address the elephant in the room.

I thought this community was filled with the most rational people in the world. I'm so disappointed. NNN was defending us from the TITS assholes, and we've stabbed him in the back over some real hair-brained bullshit and told ourselves we had to, because he was a dangerous man who was about to pounce on innocents at any moment. NO, you stupid fucking people, he's been through a bad break up and he's in mourning and he's trying to hook up with people in his depression, and we did this to him even after all he's risked for us. What is wrong with everyone? Since when do we believe the word of any accuser and just not look into it out of "respect for the victims." Fuck this shit. No.

I've been reaching out to Mike and talking with him. I'm watching him real in and out of depression. I think he's gonna be ok, but he went to facebook jail a couple days ago, and he wasn't responding to my messages, and I was afraid that...

Just, oh my god. If he harms himself over all of this, is he still the predator here? Are his crimes that grave? Could people be overreacting to all of this out of this new culty political dogma that rational thinking is not ok in a MeToo situation? Do I need to screenshot the horrid shit that has been said to me about my biological sex and post in on Tik Tok with that dumb "oh no no no no" song playing in the background in order for people to believe that sexism is a two-lane highway?

I don't like where this is headed. I don't mean equality and justice for women who are victims of sexual assault, that I do want. What I mean is the way that John was culturally pressured into hosting this radfem tirade against his own sex and somehow failing to use it to at least add to the conversation something beyond some pro tips that sending dick pics to women who didn't ask is bad. This episode seemed more for the women out there who after watching a few people defend a "predator" (even though most people didn't) don't think the exmo community is a safe space anymore.

I'm really interested in seeing what everyone says.

Trying to find people on the planet of either sex who don't employ double standards is a difficult undertaking.

I am shocked that Judgmentalism isn't an Olympic event by now. Jesus would be so proud of whoever threw the first stone. Everyone who is horrified at the barbaric practices of some countries, choose to never see words that words can do the same.

Perhaps someday Forgiveness and Understanding will be Olympic events.

Your post triggers me, and if I started to say anymore I wouldn't be able to stop and my word count would probably top your novella style posts, so, I'll leave it at that.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am shocked that Judgmentalism isn't an Olympic
> event by now.

>
> Perhaps someday Forgiveness and Understanding will
> be Olympic events.

Speaking of double standards, don't worry!!!! whatever Olympic events are in the future, LDS Inc will still be obsessed with somehow getting the Olympic games to Utah to help promote the Book of MORmON cult .....even as they emphatically insist that they only have passing interest....at most..... in worldly things like the Olympics.

Oh, reddit drama. Some reddit forums really know how to stir things up. Tik-Tok can add fuel to the flames. Some people seem to like spending their day arguing with strangers.

I'm not going to get involved in the NNN drama, except to say that it would not be the first time that he's used poor judgment.

As for misogyny, some men are misogynistic and some are not. It just depends. Most workplaces won't tolerate it, so that helps. And women who work in male-dominated professions learn how to squash it when needed out of necessity. It wouldn't surprise me if it's somewhat more prevalent in Mormonism than in many other places, due to the highly patriarchal nature of the faith.

Slight correction re: workplace tolerance: there is such a double standard. Underlings are not allowed to harass. The business owners typically expect each other to harass with impunity.They can't be fired. So they don't care. I exaggerate some, but not much.

Yes, there can definitely be problems with smaller businesses and family-owned businesses. I don't mean to imply that the problem of harassment has gone away entirely, just that it's a lot better than it used to be overall.

I watch all the news about these things and I have worked with all kinds of men. I was the only female with 20+ male scientists and chemists. Some of them are the nicest people I've ever met. I told one of them recently, "All I wanted is to marry someone like you guys." They are mormon. They treated me with the utmost respect. I was afraid of males up until I went to work there. I used to turn around in SS and think "Oh no, I have to have a man for a teacher someday." The first few days I was there, I thought about quitting.

I'll even post this. This was 1977. Thiokol. I worked in the lab. The taxi (bus) that delivered me to my work place dropped me off at the wrong building. When I walked in, my boss just happened to be there and started walking me back. He was such a great man. We ran into 2 other secretaries from the lab and he told me to go with them to the storage room to get supplies. In that room was a centerfold on the wall. Yep, those days. Me, the little naive sheltered mormon girl. I had on a sweater that had 3 rabbits on it. The guy over the storage room asked me if I was a centerfold. I never wore that sweater again.

And yet, he and I became best friends. He also was such a great guy. Even after I went to work in another part of the plant, I could still go get things from him. He used to call me after I left to have my twins. He was about 65 when I quit.

My boss, who was a mormon leader, liked nice looking women and he admitted it. They'd all hang mistletoe every year and tease me. My boss also admitted that he used to go to strip clubs on company trips with all the other guys. And yet, I still don't see him as mysogynyst. He will always be one of my favorite people. He died many years ago. I miss him still.

There were others who were just as great and one became my boss later, saved me from a bad situation. We still talk. He is very supportive of me even being mormon. When I see him he throws his arms around me and tells me how much he loves me and has missed me. He is 81 right now. Many of these guys.

Then there were the ones who thought I should clean their desk off for them. I never had ONE MAN ask me to get his coffee EVER. In the lab.

Then I went to another job and that guy abused me A LOT. He abused all the women. Made offensive comments to be mean. He'd call me into his office to find a file for him with a bunch of other men in the office and say, "I wish I could jump your bones." He'd corner me all the time. We ended up getting in a huge fight and until his boss caught him with a secretary in his office after hours doing who knows what, I couldn't get out of that job because none of the men in that area would believe me including HR. He was finally fired 8 years after I quit. One of the guys I worked with somewhere else called me as they ushered him off the plant.

There is a definite difference between each type of man. You FEEL IT when you are around them.

I do actually think it was very inappropriate of NNN to send a picture of his dick even if someone asked him for it. What is it with naked texting? Or sending naked pictures.

I have to say this one--and I didn't take it bad and maybe I should have. I was a nice looking young 20 year old when I started at Thiokol (waiting for a missionary--the missionary didn't like me working with all men). I was walking down the hall of the lab and a guy yelled out "do you have any naked pictures of yourself?" I yelled back, "No." He said, "Do you want to buy some?" I laughed a lot about that one.

I dealt with mormon leaders who were very mysogynystic like dealing with "saving my gay boyfriend" and using me as the guinea pig. I learned MISOGYNY from being a little mormon girl. I was in shock when I met the guys I knew at Thiokol. They changed my world FOREVER.

Nice post. You give good examples. Lots to think about like, is it okay to even joke anymore? Used to be knowing your audience was enough to banter freely. Now you need a signed affidavit agreeing to go to arbitration should you be misunderstood. Having a wicked sense of humor can cost you your life's work in a humorless uptight society.

You also answer the question and as I see it, "NO. All guys are not misogynists." And, All women are not man haters. Oddly many women are misogynists. Oddly lots of homosexuals are homophobic. And I could go on to infinity with those types of examples.

To paraphrase Twain, 'to a person( of either sex) with a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.' Judging can be addictive.


One thing I have learned in my life which your post also demonstrates, is, the words "all", "always", "none" and "never" are very dangerous words. They cause a lot of pain and hurt as they are very often used inaccurately.

>>Lots to think about like, is it okay to even joke anymore? Used to be knowing your audience was enough to banter freely.

I think that why guys think of as sexual banter can contribute to a woman not feeling welcome in a workplace. I know it made me feel unwelcome in certain workplaces back in the 1980s. IMO as more women are integrated into these industries, the incidences are reduced. Also, a strong HR department won't tolerate it, because that would be a lawsuit right there.

I tolerated that crap because I was young and didn't know any better. Women are on the job to earn a paycheck just like anyone else. They don't want to be harassed in the process, or made to feel like there is no future for them in that company or industry.

No matter who did it or how it was meant. I was EXTREMELY sheltered. One of the guys told me that he wished they hadn't changed me so much in terms of being naive, that I'd learned too much. A lot of girls went out there to find a man. Two of my friends ended up having affairs with married men. One was my roommate. She asked me how I was able to keep my relationships from going further than they did. I just have a line I don't cross (although I laugh about being an adulteress now).

I had opportunities to have affairs, but I chose not to.

Any teasing can actually be misinterpreted these days and they teased me a lot, but I would never have had the strength I had to deal with what I did later in life if not for these men. They are my heroes. One was an older Polish guy, not mormon. I have his letters and all the things he'd hang by my name tag that were hilarious. He was the one who started calling me chlorine as I wouldn't let him call me "Calleen" as he was from back East.

Thinking about it all made me have a little meltdown. Those were the BEST YEARS of my life. The very best.

No, not all men are misogynists, but the men I manage to attract sure are.


Maybe it's because in some ways, I am a misogynist myself. Women with negative traits associated with womanhood DRIVE ME NUTS. Women who display their emotions for all the world to see, women who enjoy their emotions, and want you to enjoy them too, women who talk too much, women who eat too much and then natter on about how they just can't seem to lose weight.

So I wanted to be the Grand Exception -- the woman who doesn't act like a stereotypical woman. I guess I attracted a misogynist because I hated myself for being a woman, and in the end he did too.

But that was long ago and far away. Been single and alone for AGES. The very idea of men and women getting together is abhorrent. I guess I just lost all my mating hormones. I can't believe that I was once the girl that tried so hard to find and attract Mr. Right, or even Mr. Right Now

But time changes everything.

Yes
No

Guys, I’m sorry for bringing this drama here. I know Mike’s a goofball who is always sticking his fingers in the ripest drama, but the community is never turned on him before. And I’ve been looking into what the evidence is for his cancellation and it just sucks. I’m trying to post links to evidence on Reddit and the mods are smacking me down. So no one is allowed to contradict the accusers, so all anyone is allowed to think is that Mike is a total creep. I think that his social awkwardness is basically being used as an argument but he’s a predator. I have shared so much here on this website, you guys know why I take this so personally.

John Dehlin and had an opportunity with two of Mike’s accusers on his podcast to push back or at least put things in perspective, and he didn’t do it. How on earth can he get this involved and then not touch the subject and claim that he’s not getting involved? The episode was about a deprogramming Mormon misogyny in the exMormon community, and it basically accused everyone with a penis of being a terrible person who could do a lot better. There is a rationalism and an eagerness to just talk in long formats here on RFM that I don’t get anywhere else. Thank you for this wonderful website.

I’m trying to force this conversation, because I will not stand for this. I know a guy on YouTube who has millions of followers. This whole story would be like redmeat to his following. It would reflect back on the exMormon community in a really bad light. It would make us look, well, deranged to be honest. It would give our insufferably conservative TBM family members something to laugh at. But I’m starting to think that we deserve that. Intersectionalist extremism has to be put in its place. The whole reason this drama is even a thing is because some TickTockers are gaming intersectionalist sentiments and sympathies for clicks and views. No one cares about Kwaku’s name. This is how all of this started. New name Noah miss pronounced Kwaku‘s name, oh shut the country down, and force him to repent they got one of his bad dates involved. And the whole thing exploded when one other girl came forward and said she just happened to also have a creepy experience with him one time. No illegal activity, just some cringe comments under a video of her posing practically naked. One of the things they said in John Dehlin‘s brain dead episode is that women, even married women, get to plaster nudes all over the Internet, and you have to control yourself like that’s not activating the launch sequence and you’re not allowed to be mad or even interested in their logic because it’s to take back what Mormonism stole from them. Meanwhile, Mike shows one questionable photo to a woman who sent him 157 nudes for free, and now his entire exMormon life is basically over. Someone explain to me how this makes any sense.

"So no one is allowed to contradict the accusers . . ."

You hit the heart of it al right there.

This is where our country is right now. Not allowed to contradict, or, add more evidence, or, broaden the picture, or put into context. If you try, you will be taken down as well.

You can find proper ways to deal with issues in the obituaries when it comes to social media.

Is it misogyny when guys treat women like they’re radioactive?

C-D, you are so deep in this drama that I think you've lost perspective. Drama can tear a community apart. If the mods over at r/exmo are shutting that down, I would respect that. Mods collectively set the tone for a board, and if they've decided that it does not benefit their community to discuss a certain topic, I would honor that.

I want you to consider that you can think of issues and respond to them in a mild manner. Look at how I responded to NNN's woes above. I didn't make a judgment about him one way or another, just, that it wouldn't be the first time that he used poor judgment or got into trouble over something.

You are still free to follow him, if you wish. Let people make up their own minds. Instead of "cancelling," think of it as people deciding who they do or do not wish to give their time.

I hear you.

I keep getting the vibe that if Mike was a little more introverted and a little more respectful of boundaries and a little more ashamed of himself, he’d be exactly like me. He thinks I might be an aspie like him.

I reached out to him. He did not reach out to me. He’s not filling my head with what I want to hear. I’m just trying to make sure he doesn’t put a gun in his mouth in order to pay him back for the many lives he has saved since I’ve known him.

Thank you summer for always respecting my agency. It is very empowering that you never lose your cool. I’m going to do what I feel is right, but I’m not going to act brashly or in haste. The damage is done. There’s no hurry now. But the truth will come out whether or not I have anything to do with it.

who had offended me, I wouldn't be living with my ex. Now HE really offended me.

Women send naked pictures, too, and maybe I'm just an old prude, but you wouldn't find me ever taking a naked picture, but maybe that is just me as I do KNOW a lot of people do it. I find it interesting behavior.

In my own relationships I've forgiven more than it sounds like NNN did. I would still actually be his friend.

I'd like to listen to Dehlin's interview about this issue. Would you post a link? I actually have a much wider view of the whole issue which is really odd considering what a little prude I was and can still be. I'll say this and see what happens. I'll say that YES, women very often do ask for what they get.

I agree with Summer. One thing to consider, CD is that NNN and John Dehlin have a long history in the exmo community and a lot of people know their backstory and their baggage. I think you're relatively new to the scene and that's why you're finding their behavior confusing. Your getting deeply involved may not be the best move.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2021 02:33PM by Devoted Exmo.

they don't have any women who grew up in the church in UTAH??? That's interesting.

I also never considered the priesthood holder the one who "controlled" me. I wasn't raised that way, although my dad was authoritarian, he never made us believe that he had this special power EVER. And I never let my husband treat me that way.

Now John is talking. I never dated in the mormon world after my marriage ended. I was never going to date unless a few certain people came back, but especially one. He came back 16 years ago and it hasn't been all roses, but we keep working on it. He is not a mormon, but I met him working in the lab and the mormon men thought I should marry him back then. Single mormon men never treated me well.

I'll change my one statement, SOME women get what they are asking for. And I think that we all send mixed messages. Some things are OBVIOUS, but others not so much. Oddly, I've always been too honest in my relationships with men. If I don't like them, THEY KNOW IT. I've had bad experiences, but I do find ways to stop what is going on. Never had someone come on to me, never had anyone assault me in any fashion. I actually am someone who has a "hands off" personality. I'm what one guy said is RESERVED.

I CHOSE not to date any mormons after my marriage ended as I didn't like how they treated me before my marriage and that is probably one of the reasons I ended up married to my husband. I wanted to marry in the temple and he didn't treat me like i was less than. How's that one? He didn't treat me like he was my boss. He can be a pain in the ass, but he never acted like he was "my leader."

I couldn't read all of CD's post because the paragraphs were too long for my eyes to deal with. Paragraphs more than 5 lines long get difficult for me to scan.

Having said that, I know nothing of the current controversy. I did have some interaction with NNN in the early aughts (ETA or late 90s), some in person, some on RFM. While I had admittedly limited experience, my feeling was that he was histrionic, manipulative and bullying. I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could throw him. He did seem smart, though I don't consider that a mitigating factor. If anything, it made things worse.

Other people's mileage may vary. Like I said, my experience is limited. I found dealing with him very uncomfortable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2021 04:28PM by Brother Of Jerry.

I think I was better at that at the peak of my English degree, but I’ve grown lazy and quick in my writing.

If Mike is right and I am like he is, even a little, then he has coped with his inability to understand/keep up with other people by refusing to be bullied by them by bullying them back at the first sign of manipulation.

I coped with that same thing by turning inward and blaming myself for whatever was wrong with me, and I kept doing that until I almost exploded.

I really wish I’d done it more his way. I don’t wanna be exactly like him, but I do want to fight for my own interests and my own feelings more than I used to, which was not at all once upon a time.

What you felt as capacity for malevolence is something else, not innocuous but also not evil, just different.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2021 05:43PM by Cold-Dodger.

Proceed with extreme caution.

I don’t think he’s a psychopath or anything like that, and the worst he’s done in all of this is send a literal a 21st century whore, someone who sells pictures and live-streams of herself for money, a picture of his junk back to show her he’s not interested, because the photo was clear enough to show that he wasn’t excited. That’s the “predatory behavior” r/exMormon was buzzing with several days ago. This is all blown way out of proportion. Gen Z does worse every day with the tech at their disposal, and no one cares. This certainly wasn’t worth siding with Kwaku over Mike.

Given what you've written above, why would you want to be in the middle of any of this? Sending an unsolicited dick pic isn't going to be well received not matter who you send it to. The players in this saga are trouble. So again, why get involved with any of them?

Seen the pic. It’s underwhelming. And the things everyone is saying about him — they’re assuming much worse than what the evidence warrants. Cuz they don’t care about that. What matters is that correct forms of deference are shown in correct situations.

I’ve felt for a long time that a lot of this intersectional Marxist social issues stuff wasn’t just a useful way to break down barriers and engender peace, but it was becoming its own religion, a virulent, ruthless, and anti-intellectual cult. Seeing Mike get canceled over so little and seeing John Dehlin kowtowing to it while getting called a misogynist for asking for evidence is just a bit much; the camel’s back is broken. This isn’t ending with Mike. These sorts of rad fems have come for Dehlin before too.

I had heard that some were coming after him in one of his Facebook groups, coercing him to get involved. He’s “platformed” Mike before, so he’s guilty by association. I’m thinking his Unlearning Mormon Misogyny episode was his grand bargain. He lets them, two of them some of the people saying that Mike is a predator, say whatever unchallenged for three hours as long as they point it vaguely at all men while he sits on his degree and adds nothing to the conversation or push back as the Socratic dialectic is called a patriarchal construction to silence victims of sexual abuse. It sounds like they coerced him and coopted his platform to push their 4th wave Femmie nonsense where all the definitions of words are distorted in dangerously anti-intellectual ways.

This is all a bit much. Why aren’t more people alarmed? This has been slowly getting worse. I can’t be the only one that had noticed. I’ve tried dismissing it as a silly fad that will pass.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2021 07:19PM by Cold-Dodger.

C-D, Brother Of Jerry is correct that there is a long (and often unpleasant) history with NNN with the exmo community of which you are unaware. This is why I think you should carefully consider taking his "cause" with a huge grain of salt.

I saw the porn and the temple thing. I know there’s more. Ethical issues. Bullying.

But, he also didn’t complete a website called JessicaLied dot com simply because I asked him not to. Jessica is the egirl. He was also telling one Facebook group that he had false accounts in it that they’ll root out. The group has 2200 people in it. I told Mike it sounds like you threatened to doxx 2200 people, and he withdrew from social media at least for now to give me a chance to defend him without him going on the war path.

What do I do with this influence? Just walk away?

He’s asking me whether it’s right to do this or wrong to do that

None of this on either side of this issue needs to go down the darkest path that it seems to be going but everyone is doing the stupidest shit they could possibly do.

If Mike just didn’t go for the doxxing. If John Dehlin stood up to a radical feminist for once in his life. If everyone on the exMormon reddit wasn’t so gung ho with giving their critical faculties over to these absolute Tik tok ghouls. Maybe things wouldn’t go off the rails.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2021 08:03PM by Cold-Dodger.

"If John Dehlin stood up to a radical feminist for once in his life"

What was her name? With the glasses. A few years later and she might have taken him down. She was a bit ahead of the shift.

>>What do I do with this influence? Just walk away?

That's *exactly* what I am saying. Walk away. For your own good.

Please trust me when I say that these types of situations have a way of working themselves out. You don't need to take up the fight.

Are all men misogynists? No

Is New Name Noah, hell yes, and he is awful. I don't know why you choose to mostly believe him and mostly disbelieve the mountain of evidence of his stalking, harassing, and threatening women.
I have been on this board a couple of decades under other names, and do check out reddit. I remember when NNN had the temple videos put on line and I (and many others) applauded it. But he has become terrible towards women over the years and it is real.
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Reddit doesn't call someone out very often, they called out him for good reason.
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Some exmormons are as bad as any mormon misogynist.
He is one of the worst.

Examples, or at least the typical modus operandi?

CD,

I have not been dragged into most of the Dehlin/NNN/other fights over the years. I prefer to focus on their contributions to the ex-Mo community.

That said, I don't see why you are involved in this. It is, in my view, never appropriate to send nude photos to anyone. There may be the occasional exception, but this isn't it. Nor am I comfortable with the use of the word "whore" for a woman no matter what her "profession" is.

There's so much complexity here that I'd avoid the situation if I were you. Two cents.

SJ babe Wrote:
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> Some exmormons are as bad as any mormon
> misogynist.

There is truth to this. Most men, in the church and out of the church, may bear the vestiges of historical misogyny but try to be egalitarian and more or less succeed. That's why there are so very many wonderful men in the world and so many wonderful relationships.

But Mormonism is a deeply misogynistic culture; the bias is beat into men and women, boys and girls, from an early age. When men lose their faith and decide to embark on a new lifestyle, they face a choice between a liberal and egalitarian attitude towards women and an unscrupulous approach to life and love. A number choose the latter path, which for some reason they believe is progressive but in fact is just 1960s boorishness.

As someone who has been called "bitch," "whore," the victim of "gangbangs," and a lot of other misogynistic things on this website--things no man has been called--I have to agree that a relatively high proportion of ex-Mormon men are hostile to women, especially those women who refuse to bow to residual claims to patriarchal authority.

It sounds like NNN is a fairly prominent and exhibitionistic version of the post-Mormon boor. Hopefully the percentage of such porcine creatures Mormonism produces will diminish along with the church's overall strength and influence.

I donated to NNN years ago because I was enjoying the videos.

I would never get personally involved with him in anyway shape or form. Although I like him and I really enjoyed a lot of what he’s done, I would never want to get personally involved with him because if you end up getting on the wrong side of the equation with him – he’s a relentless obsessed person he would pursue you to the ends of the earth to get a little grain of what he would perceive as justice. But I like the guy.