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Posted by: librarian ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 01:21PM

I have been reading posts here since 1998, and have come to the conclusion that children in the LDS are tortured from an early age.
Now we know that the years from 1 to 5 are the most important in the formation of a child's' brain and character.
I am happy to say that I have only four great grandchildren who have been indoctrinated into the cult. Otherwise they have a good life with somewhat liberal parents.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 01:32PM

Probably an unpopular opinion, but if children are trapped into church indoctrination it's best to have moderate parents who are flexible.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 01:36PM

can confirm this thred ~



ziller hab torture early ~



brian is ok tho ~



~\|||/~
~(o0)
~/||\~



thx ~

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 01:38PM

librarian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been reading posts here since 1998, and
> have come to the conclusion that children in the
> LDS are tortured from an early age.

Not sure I'd use the word tortured but growing up in an offshoot restrictive religion can definitely have a huge and lasting negative effect on a person, whether they stay in or get out of the group.

You could say that all children to some extent bear the imprint of their parents, with whatever the parents teach them and model for them making an impact. Some are more fortunate than others in the type of environment they are exposed to growing up.


> Now we know that the years from 1 to 5 are the
> most important in the formation of a child's'
> brain and character.

It seems hard to believe that anything at those early ages can affect one's entire life but I do believe it's true. I got lost when I was 5 and was pushed over and jeered at by some older kids. I felt scared and humiliated. I can't remember much else from that age other than the house we lived in but I sure recall that event and those feelings. To this day, I struggle to keep my bearings and have to always look to the mountains to orient myself to north so I can figure out road directions. Which came first, chicken or egg, I guess. Maybe I have an inborn orientation defect or perhaps that early frightening experience, when I felt all alone in the big whole world, really imprinted my brain and I've felt "lost" all my life when it comes to finding my way around. For a long time I couldn't read a map to save my life. If I ever move away from the mountains, which allow me to ID north, south, east, west, I could be in big trouble! When I was a police volunteer my biggest challenge, of many in that line of business, was to report my location to officers in terms of northeast, southwest, etc, rather than left and right. It never comes naturally, even after all this time. Weird!


> I am happy to say that I have only four great
> grandchildren who have been indoctrinated into the
> cult. Otherwise they have a good life with
> somewhat liberal parents.

Indoctrinated is the word. It's amazing to me that people get out. As we know from accounts on this board, it's not easy and can bring about great loss in terms of family and friends, as well as lifelong sorrow for the way things were and the fallout of that.

It's good to read, librarian, (ha, see what I did there!) that some of your great-grands get the opportunity to grow up in at least a more "normal" environment. I'm lucky that my parents were well-read and encouraged us to explore. Despite being identified as Irish Catholic (mom) and English Protestant (dad) due to their birthplaces and times (when that was a bigger deal) they didn't impose any one strict belief system on us. That was a gift.

In that way, I'm the one who inflicted first the JWs and later the LDS on myself.

All that because somewhere along the way I got the not-so-bright idea that there was universal truth somewhere and I was going to find it. I had an intense curiosity that way. Groups that claim to be "the truth" (and especially JWs that call their faith that) got my attention, when I was young and immensely naive. There oughtta be a law!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 02:03PM

librarian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now we know that the years from 1 to 5 are the
> most important in the formation of a child's'
> brain and character.

"Early-life adversities for these children may include exposure to alcohol and other substances in utero, and neglect."
https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/effect-trauma-brain-development-children

I believe Mormonism is a machine for neglect.

My mother is a victim of severe childhood abuse. Her religion was her savior from it. She thought she needed to have a husband and family when she didn't want to. My father was neglected as a child. They went and had 10 kids most of whom were neglected and not emotionally supported much.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 05:47PM

I guess I'm fortunate that church was a Sunday thing and not 24/7 in my childhood. No scripture reading either...and my rural school mates were all non Mormon. Would have been a different upbringing had I grown up in the local Moridor.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 06:59PM

Bear in mind, Librarian, that this Board is populated by people who have been grievously hurt in and by the LDS church and environment. I neither discount their experiences, nor do I endorse the LDS religion. But there is a negativity here which feeds upon itself. Many come here, work through their issues to various ways and degrees and move on. I am in touch with a few ex-Mo Board participants who are rarely heard from now, as they have "moved on."

There are boards where loyal Mormons are very grateful for having been born and brought up LDS. I consider them theologically wrong, if psychologically functional.

Negative & traumatic childhoods (religious or otherwise) will affect different people in different ways. I was brought up in Christian Science, and certainly had issues which intensified my young-adult alcoholism. But as I entered recovery around age 30, I put the bottle, and my childhood religion, behind me. My brother, now 80, is still profoundly embittered by it all.

"Your mileage will vary," as they say.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 07:25PM

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Your mileage will vary," as they say.

Did you mean to say, "Your recovery will vary" you say?

Sometimes denial of things just leads to less overtness in acceptance of things that you find hard to articulate that you experienced in an abusive past. You still act and are acted upon by the past. You just think of other explanations for your behavior that make sense for the present.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2021 07:26PM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 07:49PM

Exactly.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 09:24PM

I hope you're not suggesting that if we're not in touch with our cult history, we're in denial. Some people do recover and move on, which is why some posters have disappeared.

I go days and weeks without a thought relative to Christian Science, and years since a troubling thought, feeling, or association. My brother, not. It's not a matter of denial, but of one's current life track.

There was a great discussion board for ex-Christian Scientists. It went to archive status because there was insufficient interest--no need!--in it. May that be the situation for RfM someday.

Thus, "your mileage (recovery) will vary."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 12:32AM

He's just commenting on your transition from one cult to another.

I noted your comment about "negativity," which strikes me as ironic. Your political idols deprived people of their constitutional rights, supported violence against minorities, sold out American allies, and encouraged an attempt to overthrow a constitutional republic, by all accounts one of humanity's greatest achievements.

Confronted by such nihilism, are we to believe you are an optimist?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 11:02AM

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope you're not suggesting that if we're not in
> touch with our cult history, we're in denial.

Nope. Our bodies keep the score for abuses, trauma, and cult control tactics. If these things happen in our formative years there might be physiological events in our bodies that sometimes take until middle age to have an effect. Most of them we ourselves can't articulate in words what is going on so our bodies do things and our brains do things and we explain these things to ourselves in the context of what we find socially acceptable.

Judging other people's recovery is like counting grains of sands and thinking you understanding something about beaches. Just because you deem yourself something (in the recovery realm) doesn't make it so. Participation or lack of it doesn't mean anything. Some people's demons take a long time in their tortures.

RIP FlattopSF.

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Posted by: Adam the Warrior ( )
Date: May 05, 2021 08:56PM

They are tortured make no mistake about it. Lived it. Unfortunately.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 03:54PM

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have questioned use of the word 'tortured' in the OP.

I took it literally, as I tend to do with language, which is a frequent thinking glitch of mine.

I realize it's not up to me to characterize someone else's experience. I'm sorry I did that.

From the many accounts I've read here over the years it's readily apparent that growing up in a repressive religion can be exceedingly harmful, intensified if one's parents are especially observant, demanding and/or punitive. I remember stating years ago that a Mormon childhood, especially with excessively faithful parents, evokes the image of a treadmill in my mind. I said that Mormons can be 25 years old, with seminary and mission behind them and marriage and children already in place, before they may get a second to think. And then they feel trapped due to having felt compelled to follow the script laid out by the church and imposed on them by their parents.

A BIC poster who had shared the common story of growing up Mormon replied that it's exactly like that. A whirlwind that consumes a third of their lives before they can draw breath and think about what they really want or would choose if they had the chance. That struck me as profoundly sad and it still affects me the same way.

That doesn't even cover the damage that is done with "complications" such as wanting something different from the Mormon blueprint or {gasp} being gay, a group the Mormon hierarchy still shuns, yet say they love. That is mind-bending.

We all have challenges growing up, needless to say. Some win life's lottery by being born to cool parents. But for most, clashing with one's parents is a rite of passage. We are encompassed by a parent's dreams for us (which often don't match our own) and face their disappointment if our views and desires don't match with theirs. This is, obviously, greatly intensified if religious zealotry is in the mix and we don't buy in.

I was a quiet, shy, self-conscious child, even up into my 'teens. I had always wanted to be a nurse and knew the stories of all the famous nurses through the ages. My father asked "Why not be a doctor?" (indicating that a nurse is second best). His attitude hurt my tender heart and it was a point of contention between us. It felt to me that he didn't know me at all. That held true in many ways and yet I always considered us to be close. Still, there were stressors and fervent disagreements on many fronts. Dad was the champion swearer of all time, absolutely. And I never got used to it. His favourite emphatic statements hurt my ears often. When my marks in nursing school were only 5th in the class instead of 1st he would tell me to study harder, do better, instead of accepting, as I did, that there is always going to be somebody quicker, smarter, better at certain things. He was noisy and swear-y and always, always had the highest expectations of us kids. Completely the opposite of me. Sometimes I even wondered if he was really my father. Still, I thought we always had a good relationship, positive in many ways, and I felt close to him. We were good friends in my adult years with him. Despite conflicts, mostly due to his strong opinions and expectations, I would say we had a good childhood, great homes, vacation cabin in the woods (that I loved dearly), wonderful Christmases, lots of parties (with bagpiping friends!), multitudes of books (we had read all the classics before high school), trips overseas to visit relatives and plenty of family friends who were good to us. Even though he wasn't religiously observant he let my older sister and me go to church for a while with a neighbour who was a pastor. But there were no enforced religious beliefs from either of my parents. (Makes you wonder why I was so religiously inclined that I joined both the JWs and the Mormons before giving up on the concept of religious "truth").

However, despite all the positives, some of the childhood stuff strongly impacted me at the time and into adulthood, feelings of not being good enough, feeling shy and wounded and not understood. The latter can make you feel very alone. My older sister agrees this happened to her too, for different reasons.

This is why I can somewhat comprehend the misery that a fundamentalist style religious upbringing can impose on a person. If non-religious environments can still create challenges and long-lasting issues, even phobias, for many people, how much more so when you also add strict religious beliefs and practices.

Even a convert cannot truly comprehend what it is like to be born into such a belief system. I remember being shocked to learn that Mormon children have to go to seminary before regular school, often very early in the morning. A couple extra hours of sleep every day would do them more good. And to have to be so submerged in Mormonism. Every. Single. Day. And the weekend. And not just meetings but all the extras too. It's exhausting. And stultifying. I just never found Mormonism all that interesting. And that was when I only went on Sundays. Always waiting for some true inspiration or even just a profound thought. I really missed the sermons I was used to, even with the JWs, that were positive and often held at least one thought that was worth pondering.

There were my JW friends, two glamorous sisters, whose father committed suicide, a terrible sin in the JW world. I didn't know him but he was labelled "inactive" as he attended a few meetings here and there but didn't "witness" (going door to door or standing on corners with the magazines, activities that are expected of every member to be in good standing). I always wondered if the experience of even mild shunning he endured due to that is why he took his life.

I think of my Mormon convert friend, the one the missionaries lied to in order to get her into the font. What kind of religion teaches its missionaries to lie to convert I often wondered. And how did they silently impose their will on me so that I didn't tell her they were lying?

Yes, converts are hurt too. But how much more so can the religion insidiously and negatively affect BICs? BICs who endure the system, the treadmill, from birth. And for as long as they endure it until some finally leave. And the leaving hurts. Wrecks marriages, families, relationships. Tragedies from beginning to end.

I can see that. But mostly only as an outside observer. And from reading RfM for years. The family tales are often the most poignant. Mormonism is definitely one of those things you can leave but they may not leave you alone. And you may not ever get over the leaving of it. As a short term "convert" (I never considered that I really converted) I could walk out the church doors one day, cross the lawn, and shout Hallelujah as I made the instant decision to Just. Leave. And that was it. No further contact, no family complications. Thankfully I wouldn't think of marrying a Mormon so no worries on that front either.

But with BICs it can rarely ever be that quick and easy. And those are the stories we read about here. So many through the years. The hell of growing up Mormon (for so many people).

I feel for you all. And, again, I'm so sorry that I inadvertently may have minimized your pain by quibbling over a word choice. However, you want to describe it is what's important. I will try to keep Dictionary Nightingale under control. We're not dealing in strict definitions here but rather in accounts of real life stories and the pain and even agony of so many people born into a nightmare system that so negatively impacted their lives and the lives of those they love.

Elder Berry said "RIP FlattopSF".

Yes indeed. That one hurt mightily.

As many have said through the years, Mormonism and its leaders have a lot to answer for.

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Posted by: librarian ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 04:20PM

Thank you Nightingale- you explained what I meant by torture.
As one who endured Catholicism until a teen, I was always tortured by the empty stomach for Communion Sundays.
No allowance was made for our comfort as children, and who can sit still for hours if you are under six?
The mind torture was something else, and the relief I felt finding out the Church was full of child molesters, which I escaped, was monumental.
There are different levels of torture in any patriarchal despotism.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 04:44PM

Whew. Thanks, librarian. That's a relief. I should know better anyway than to try and "correct" someone else. Everybody should be free to express themselves with whatever words or in whichever way works for them (within the bounds of reason, I guess, if that's not too constricting an expectation).

Your brief outline of growing up Catholic made my eyes water. You captured it. My mom and her three sisters did also, as their Irish mum was Catholic. Only one aunt stuck with it into adulthood and I know she gave scads of money to the priests. When she died, her priest couldn't be bothered to conduct her service. Even though we aren't believers, it hurt us to know that she would have been so sadly disappointed. I know there are much worse offences but to me religion isn't supposed to hurt. Yet its leaders and adherents wield great power to inflict pain.


librarian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are different levels of torture in any
> patriarchal despotism.

Yes, indeed. Well said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2021 04:44PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: May 08, 2021 03:39PM

Maybe not all tortured, at least to the same degree (if any at all)...

But (ALL) Mislead, Lied To, LABELED, Used (for nefarious purposes), Tortured (mentally, physically, spiritually, socially...), Entrapped...

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 08, 2021 04:32PM

> a child who is cut off from people
> at this early age, and if s/he ever
> meets any strangers or non-immediate
> householders, s/he cannot see their
> facial expressions because they are
> covered up. That developmental damage
> would be permanent if this continued
> for over a year.

What developmental damage?

How do you know to put a time frame to it?


Aside from yourself, Bon Wit Teller, who is declaring, "Stop wearing masks!! Think of the children!!! Oh, the horror of their developmental damage!!"?

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