My guess is that its closer to communism than socialism. Also, as Prophet Ezra Taft Benson sang, “I am a Mormon boy”.

Could it be an aristocracy?

For sure it’s not a meritocracy!

Religious plutocracy. Control of the many by the few who hold the power of their money.

"Thus, the sacrifice of millions of tithe payers who subsidize your education leaves you free to choose to do what you - and the Lord - want you to do.

With that freedom, as with all freedom, comes accountability. In the case of BYU students, whether they be in Provo, Laie, or Rexburg there are at least two important parts of that accountability. First, it is incumbent on you - whose career and life options are being expanded as a result of the sacrifice of others - to maximize the educational opportunity that is afforded to you. It is your responsibility to learn all you can, so that you are best positioned to do what you - and the Lord - want you to do. Contrary to what Satan may whisper in your ear when the alarm goes off early in the morning to rouse you to go to class or finish a paper, there is more riding on the decision you make at that point than your own g.p.a. or individual success. Those who could benefit from your enhanced education - whether they be your future children, your future clients, or the communities or nations in which you will live - all will be benefitted by your choosing to use your time here as wisely as possible. "
https://www.byui.edu/devotionals/kevin-worthen

Idiocracy.

Starbucks is like polygamy?

Only if you order more than one drink at a time.

It’s capitalism. The church in reality is a holding company financed by donations and return on a diversified portfolio of assets.

"Nice eternity we got for you. Shame if something happened to it."

I'd say communism is it's end goal, When the pioneers were trying to implement progressive radical ideas from the 19th century there was always a ruling class that got to live by a different set of rules. Fanny Stenhouse gives an interesting account in her book of when right after she arrived by covered wagon in Salt Lake, Brigham demanded she turn over her business property (ribbons, and lace) as 'tithing'. He used her sacrifice not for the benefit of the kingdom but for the benefit of his wives. The same thing goes on today, people use the church for their own material benefit, or employment. There is a whole upper class of mormons up on the hill safely separated from the rest of us through their connections.

Just asking. For a friend.

Tyson, invoking the ghost of ETB

It is probable a creative mix of both!!

Whatever the designation I always thought there was a strong similarity between the black suited leaders lined up on the stand at GC and the black suited leaders lined up to salute the May Day parade in Moscow in the old USSR.

This MoTab performance...
https://youtu.be/aFRlsbSdvAE

Socialism? Communism? Republic? Democracy? Perhaps Book Club? Considering the power of the BoM of course. These are all about the people, the populace, the little people from the village, tricked into believing they have a say in things--that they they are participating in control. Hahahaha ha HAH HAH HAH.

Mormonism is a Kingdom.

A King. A Queen. Knights of the Realm. And subjects. Lots and lots of subjects. As many as possible.

We were all serfing when we should have been surfing.

Feudal taxes were usually much lower than 10%, but the church as a feudal society makes sense. Nobody votes for leaders except for public sustaining by hand raising. The prophet acts as king, issuing decrees at the stroke of his lighted pen.

Reminds me of Monty Python.

“King Arthur: I am your king.
Peasant Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Peasant Woman: Well, how'd you become king, then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.
Dennis the Peasant: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis the Peasant: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Jb2gqu5xw

HAHA. So good, that.

Amazing how many times comedy says so much more than the most earnest of dramas.

Demanding you hand over all your rights and property. Check.

Restricting your freedom of expression. Check.

Changing terminology all the time to catch people out. "Don't call us Mormon!" Check.

Demanding you attend workshops and alter your thinking. Check.

Self-criticism and struggle sessions. Check.

A self-appointed leadership posing as representatives of the people. Check.

Hiding its past atrocities and continually reinventing itself. Check.

Saying only its ideas are correct. Check.

Use of forced labor. Check.

Centralization of power. Correlation. (Take all further checks as read.)

Oppression masquerading as liberation.

Brainwashing. Reprogramming. Control of personal finances.

Sounds like Walmart or any number of other mega-corps. And I include LDS Inc as a mega-corp.

LDS Inc ....and its Book of MORmON church

During the early years of the church, they tried to practice "The United Order".

The United Order, IMO, is the closest thing to Communism; the church got the idea before Stalin or Lenin ever thought of it.

Instead of the KGB, they had the Danites to keep things in order.

First of all, Mormonism didn't start out to be communist or socialist--those terms weren't invented until the 1880s and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was founded in (I believe) 1833.

While the terms "communist" and "socialist" hadn't been invented at the time Mormonism was established, certainly ideas that have since become associated with these -isms were around long before Joseph Smith was even born. For example, at the end of one of the chapters of Acts in the New Testament (I think it's either 4 or 5), The Apostles are described as living together and sharing with each other according to need. Similarly, though the word socialism hadn't been invented yet, Thomas Paine, the writer of Common Sense, the book that convinced many British colonists to join the American revolution, once wrote that he thought that the U.S. government should provide a monthly stipend for each citizen to ensure that all should have the necessary funding to survive.

No. At least in this regard, I'm not really concerned about whether the LDS church is capitalist or socialist or Communist or anything else--what is more concerning to me is what the LDS church isn't. And what it isn't is being truthful about either its past or present.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2021 02:13PM by blindguy.

Not sure where you got the 1880s date from. Communist Manifesto was published in 1848, and there were socialist towns in places like New Harmony, IN in late 1830s. I recently read in a history book where the charge of “socialist” was used as a political cudgel in the 1890 presidential campaign.

The idea was very much in the air by the time of Nauvoo, and probably even Kirtland.

...at least partially. According to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

Karl Marx did publish The Communist Manifesto in 1848 and then he published the much longer 3-volume Dos Capital between 1863 and 1881.

The reason I use the word "partially" here is because, by all accounts, Joseph Smith wasn't well-read or well-traveled, and he certainly didn't spend his time reading books or hanging out with intellectuals. I'm inclined to think that Brigham Young may have been slightly more well-read than Joseph Smith (which is probably not saying very much), but I have a hard time believing that he had much, if any, interest in intellectual pursuits, including the works of Karl Marx (though it is possible that he may have been introduced to some Marxist ideals by a Mormon convert or two).

I found an article in Britannica on this topic which can be read at

https://www.britannica.com/topic/socialism

According to this piece, while the ideals of socialism can be traced back even to the Old Testament and Moses, the use of the term "socialism" did not occur until around 1830 to describe these ideas. And, by then, socialists were reacting to the Industrial Revolution taking place than anything to do with agriculture. Because he wasn't an intellectual or well-traveled and because the term "socialism" took off in Europe before coming to the U.S., I think that it is unlikely that Joseph Smith knew anything about socialism or what it was intended to be. However, he may very well have placed classic socialist ideas in to the creation of his church (cult) without ever realizing that they were, or would be considered by future generations to be, socialist.

It's important to remember what socialism means. It is state ownership of the means of production. That need not be leftist; in fact, I'd argue it is the tendency of all monarchies and other forms of totalitarianism.

If a religion, or a religious leader, believes in divine guidance, socialism is a logical and moral imperative. Who wouldn't want God to run an economy? That's the basis of communist parties' paradoxical embrace of socialism: the ultimate goal is the abolition of all government, but to get there you need the best possible management of resources. The enlightened vanguard knows the historical process, so they should make the decisions.

It follows that the Mormons would have been hypocrites not to let the state, the church, the prophet, control the means of production. To do otherwise would be to doubt God. JS didn't need to know the word "socialism" to follow its precepts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2021 06:16PM by Lot's Wife.

Is Mormonism more communist or socialist.

Everyone in the thread is talking mostly about socialism, so there’s your answer.

IMHO, there are no real communist governments. Accusations that this or that politician is a Marxist are basically just generic insults, along the lines of “your mother wears combat boots.” Neither the insulter nor the insulted probably have a very clear concept of what Marxism is.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-----------------------------------
> IMHO, there are no real communist governments.

True. There is no government, and never has been one, that seriously attempted to cause its own withering away. Some governments declared that the goal, but once they achieved power they never relinquished it.


------------------
> Neither the insulter nor the insulted probably
> have a very clear concept of what Marxism is.

Very few people understand either communism or socialism.

It is neither socialist nor communist. There were some attempts at something approaching communism--the United Order, etc--but those efforts were abandoned as soon as they proved impossible.

But recall the definition of socialism: state ownership of the means of production. That has to be more than the occasional instance of kleptocracy, like when BY requisitioned an existing business or asset, or the management of some commercial enterprise like ZCMI; it has to be the church, functioning as a government, taking control of and managing most of society's productive resources.

The LDS church is a capitalist endeavor. It wants people to generate wealth through private enterprise (by far the best way to generate wealth). Having generated the wealth, the church then taxes it both generally (through tithing) and exceptionally (through person-specific levies).

Taxation is not socialism.

I doubt JS was familiar with the term socialism, not that that matters much. The concept was around long before the name. Hutterites to this day are communal, and they started in the 16th century. They are mostly found today in the northern Great Plains of the US and Canada, where I spent a good chunk of my life. They always had the best produce, at the highest price at farmers markets.

But I digress.

If I recall correctly, utopian socialist experiments were kind of a thing in the Midwest in the early to mid 1800s. Examples are New Harmony, IN starting in the 1820s, and the Amanda Colonies in the 1850s, first in NY, then Iowa. And as I mentioned, Karl Marx was getting up a head of steam in the 1840s.

I suppose these experiments tended to be communal. I really hesitate to use the word communist because that word has so much baggage associated with the Russian legacy.

The concept of socialism was pretty much “in the air”, whether JS had any formal knowledge of it or not.

Don't forget united order.

I've been on this board for 14 years now (!) and I was so surprised at what I read here that I read far and wide about mormonism (and continue to...). Mormon history is really "fun" (in a rather worrying sort of way ;-).

After considerable study and research, I have come to the conclusion that the basic structure of the so-called church is best summed up as "a corporation of arseholes".

Oh, and on the other topics, I usually agree with Lot's Wife and Brother of Jerry. It's surprising how knowledge can be so useful :-D

Have a great weekend, everybody :-)

You too, Tom in Paris!

It's totalitarianism.

That's close enough for government work.

I was a teenage communist ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxEshFBhU-4

Is it you who's been hiding under Jordan's bed?

It is neither. Mormonism was kooky and quite different. It has morphed into a milktoast religion that only makes it a nuisance with tithing, garment wearing, hold strong to policies like the word of wisdom, decreased numbers, and less and less people caring about Mormonism. I haven't seen a missionary for a long time either out on the roads biking in a suit.


The church still
Dislikes gays in heaven and in real life.
Enjoys women to be pregnant and making babies forever in the afterlife
Still thinks the prophet is God's big man on earth
Slowly taking the nuances of the book of mormon as not as divine but a good storybook that you must answer YES that you believe it is the word of God.

Family members that are still in the religion still can't find their way out and see how ridiculous the mormon history origins are. The ones that understand the nuance and fakeness for that religion but still stay just baffles me. I guess they like their friends more than the truth and love pretend fairytales about souls, afterlife, God, Joe smith legends etc.

All of the stuff that made mormonism really far out there and unique has been changed (temple rituals/endowment process/ penalties) prophets that made predictions and outlandish claims to be true when they were not, using tithing to fund the entertainment within the wards, activities, and community bonding of been reduced to very little.

I agree, neither.
It’s an Authoritarian Oligarchy.

Where do you get your choices?

It's an exclusive club where members pay dues for views.

The members take care of the church, not the other way around.