I was down in Utah attending a funeral and after visiting with relatives down there I can say the temple excitement is just not there. You mention anything about temples and there is no enthusiasm about them at all. It’s like ho hum they are getting one now.

I think many of my relatives are doing the church thing because it’s simply what they have done their whole lives. They also don’t like the changes and show little enthusiasm for President Nelson.

One relative was actually disgusted with him gutting the Salt Lake temple and putting in theaters. They said he’s ruining the artwork and just making it drab and bland.

What I came away with is the church isn’t so much about faith as it is traditions. It’s like changing all the old family Christmas traditions or taking some of that away. People hate it. If you wipe the traditions, long time members might get so upset they will leave.

" ... [T]he temple excitement is just not there. You mention anything about temples and there is no enthusiasm about them at all. It’s like ho hum they are getting one now."


Temples used to be special. Members made great sacrifices to visit them. There was an air of mystery surrounding temples. Now they literally litter the landscape.

I lived in upstate New York in the early 80’s. The nearest temple was in Washington DC. The yearly stake Temple trip to the temple was a huge deal. Buses were chartered. Accommodations reserved. I remember everyone getting excited when that white temple came into view. We finally made it!

Then there was the ride home with some people on a spiritual high and for others it was an excuse to go on a trip and get away. If anything the stake bonded just doing something together and because we were going to The House of the Lord people were on their best behavior.

They say the journey is the destination. Very true. You went to the temple because it simply was there. Similar to why people climb tall mountains. But the temple was the goal. The journey was the most enjoyable part.

You don’t get that with a temple easy to get to and where you can see three temples lit up from the same vantage point.

Interesting. I think you are right: this fits the pattern of the church eliminating the social element and making everything mundane.

The loss of fellowshipping will hurt the church more than people learning the church hid things to control the narrative.

Only a small minority attend a church for doctrinal reasons. Most attend for social reasons. Talk to any minister or priest or heck talk to a rabbi or imam. Fellowshipping is the glue that holds a religious organization together. Yeah you need a holy book and some basic doctrine but church is social.

You need more than religious services to keep your parish, ward, mosque or synagogue together. I grew up in a jewish community. My mom was always helping our jewish neighbors with bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs or any social function that involved a lot of preparation and food. My mom loved helping with that stuff. We often would get invited to the social functions at the local Jewish temple or Methodist church. The social stuff is all the same. The Jewish kids would come to our church because it had a basketball court. The custodian would let us play ball after school as long as we weren't interfering with a church function.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I lived in upstate New York in the early 80’s.
> The nearest temple was in Washington DC. The
> yearly stake Temple trip to the temple was a huge
> deal. Buses were chartered. Accommodations
> reserved. I remember everyone getting excited when
> that white temple came into view. We finally made
> it!
>
> Then there was the ride home with some people on a
> spiritual high and for others it was an excuse to
> go on a trip and get away. If anything the stake
> bonded just doing something together and because
> we were going to The House of the Lord people were
> on their best behavior.
>
> They say the journey is the destination. Very
> true. You went to the temple because it simply was
> there. Similar to why people climb tall mountains.
> But the temple was the goal. The journey was the
> most enjoyable part.
>
> You don’t get that with a temple easy to get to
> and where you can see three temples lit up from
> the same vantage point.

I grew up in New Hampshire in the 1980s, and had the same experience. The youth temple trips were a huge deal and so much fun. The temple itself was kind of bleh, just the usual dead dunking. But the bus rides, the dance we always held in the local Marriott, the sightseeing we got to do, man those were so much fun. Now in that area, the best the kids get is a ward day trip to the Boston temple. I live in Copenhagen now, and there is a temple here, and "temple trips" for my kids were usually just a Wednesday evening activity. When I was in Utah last month, and driving west on the South Jordan Parkway, I had two temples right in my line of sight, literally three miles apart from each other. Yeah, when they are a common as your local Walmart, there is nothing special about them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 06:35AM by alsd.

The trip meant more than the temple for most people. The puritans who were temple obsessed were in the minority. The church has killed why most people stayed in. The fellowshipping.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The trip meant more than the temple for most
> people. The puritans who were temple obsessed were
> in the minority. The church has killed why most
> people stayed in. The fellowshipping.
I attended a farce and testimonky meeting yesterday in the ward I have recently moved into.
Why is not important.What is important to me is the reception I recieved had all the warmth and friendliness of a December arctic blizzard.
And the ecclesiastical hierarchy wonders why their attendance is only 20%?

I'm sorry they're not friendly, DR.

I think I've suggested before that you could try a mainstream church that isn't focused solely (or at all) on proselytizing. In my experience, they try to be friendly and welcoming to newcomers. No commitment necessary from visitors. Maybe you can find a warm place there, all ready for their Christmas dinner, or something, when the time comes.

I'm not trying to proselytize either - it's just that in my experience, if you're interested in church or just church folk, they tend to be much friendlier and more welcoming than Mormons. Not that I blame the members so much - the leaders drain every oz of blood from them and they have no energy to extend themselves towards anything they're not "called" to do, such as saying hello to anybody not on their 'to do' list.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 07:25PM by Nightingale.

The Las Vegas Saints use to do much the same thing and head for St. George. It was a fun social thing for them until the Vegas Temple came along.

Yup. The temple has become Walmart. You no longer go to Oz to see the wizard. The trip and mystery is gone. The temple is nothing special now because it's too close and you can go to easy. What will also sour the pudding is a temple close by means more guilt tripping to go. More temple assignments including cleaning it and maintaining the grounds. Most people don't want to be temple workers and the pressure will be on to be one.

All I can say is sit back and watch the disaster.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most people don't want to be temple workers and
> the pressure will be on to be one.

I don't agree. My parents saw that there were more workers than patrons all the time and at one time the church was reducing their hours for other "younger" people to have opportunities to work.

Ha! Ha! A bunch of workers in an empty temple. A different problem but still a problem.

Villager Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Las Vegas Saints use to do much the same thing
> and head for St. George. It was a fun social thing
> for them until the Vegas Temple came along.


What was the time frame for you, in Las Vegas?

They're really going to be put out when Nelson does away with all the Masonic garb, symbols, and handshakes.

I think most members like it when the endowment is simplified more. Nelson might indeed cut a lot more out. Watch the silly clothes disappear all together. You just wear a white dress or suit.

I have to admit that I originally misread the subject line.

Just relieved that there is no apparent letup in the flow of b.s. from the hallowed halls--or hollowed heads--of Mormondumb.

As RfM has pointed out, this is why Denver Snuffer and Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell are so popular- they offer renewed excitement by claiming a revival of the revelatory prowess of Joseph Smith's day, which the modern church has simply lost.

It's not only that "the revelatory prowess of Joseph Smith's day, which the modern church has simply lost," it's that it has been replaced with nothing but sameness, obligation and drudgery.

I saw lots of great insight in this thread. Temples in every town in Utah; the tenuous threads holding mormonism together at this point is cultural traditions and the temple ceremonies watered down to watching a film. Interesting.

The church became a corporation. It no longer has inspiring religious leaders. It has administrators. It doesn't have fellowship. It has programs.

Modern Mormonism has been very successful as a business. It’s been a complete failure as a church.

Regarding temples, Utah may have reached the point of market saturation. And with rare exceptions, the newer temples all have a cookie-cutter sameness. If you've seen one, you've seen them all.

So sad. My god they are going to gut an old and unique building and replace it with a cookie-cutter Megaplex. Seems so sad like they are destroying an historical site. But then again why should I care. They can pave over temple square and put in a parking lot for all I care.

I looked at what they were going to do with the earth quake proof foundation and knew they would have to gut the basement to install it. The creation room and garden room and baptistery are toast.

Well, they need something to spend all that stash of billions on so that they at least have the appearance of using tithing for something religious. Is that called an embarrassment of riches?

Yesterday, we went for a drive and as we were heading west on North Temple, you could see the Salt Lake Temple and all of the renovation going on.

It looks like they have smoothed down all of the outside surface, which makes me wonder if they removed the symbols that were on all four sides of it. If so, they probably won't have them on again because the church is trying to look less like a cult and a little more "mainstream".

I remember asking about the symbols. My parents looked like I'd asked about kinky sex.

I got brushed off with, "You'll learn about it when you get to the temple."

Did I miss something? I only went twice.

Just google "masonic symbols" to learn all about the symbols stitched into your garments.

The most well-known Masonic symbol among Mormons is the beehive. It was Brigham Young's idea to use it for "Deseret." Truth is, most Mormons have no idea that it's a Masonic symbol, because it's good to wallow in ignorance if you're going to be a believing member.

Incidentally, a number of photo of Brigham Young show him wearing a Masonic clasp or ping (standard compass and square symbol) on his suit. On the one hand, we hear that he condemned the Masons. On the other hand, it seems he had some devotion to them. The church won't provide an answer about it.

Here's a link about it:

https://www.freemason.com/the-beehive/

Tyson

They have removed a lot of the decorative facing stone. Apparently they will be putting it back on. I don't think the outside of the temple is going to change other than having a larger addition put on the side that holds additional sealing rooms.

I never knew what went on in temples past dead dunking and weddings. My parents, who attended temples all over the world, never ever spoke about what they did in them. I've learned a lot in the decade I've been here.

My Mom's ward has no sponsored or scheduled temple trips at the moment. Her assigned temple at Sacramento is closed for renovation. Even though the newly built Yuba City one (they call it majestic Feather River) is a mere hour away and available, their "assigned" temple is a 2.5 hour drive to Reno NV.

Not too many members are excited to travel 5 hours to nod off during a session. Factor in that the winter weather may be returning to the Sierra Nevada crossing.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Mom's ward has no sponsored or scheduled temple
> trips at the moment. Her assigned temple at
> Sacramento is closed for renovation. Even though
> the newly built Yuba City one (they call it
> majestic Feather River) is a mere hour away and
> available, their "assigned" temple is a 2.5 hour
> drive to Reno NV.
>
> Not too many members are excited to travel 5 hours
> to nod off during a session. Factor in that the
> winter weather may be returning to the Sierra
> Nevada crossing.

Hmmm...the Sacramento temple is not closed for removation, and the Yuba City Feather River temple is nowhere near completion, let alone available for use. Something is amiss in your mom's ward.

on one of our weekend drives. We approached from the north. It's not on a hill nor does it look like anything special. Yuba City is a small city and the population certainly can't really support a temple.

We were underwhelmed.

Well, to be fair there are no real hills to speak of in Yuba City, and they are just using the same plot of land that the stake center has been on for decades. But yes, I continue to be perplexed by the very notion of a temple in Yuba City. Seems as if Chico would have been a far better choice foe a temple b north of Sacramento.

They're probably just all ready and willing to delve into some multi-level marketing scheme, or become saturated in some other ideal of nearly bent thinking that maybe barely makes sense, or even could stay (more isolated) extra covid friendly. Not getting involved with many other people for as long as it takes to heal and finish recovering from long term exposure to the Mormo-ism (see, not using Mormon!) and all of the cult's ways.

If the covid timing along with much more abundant information on the internet helped in maybe doing all of this, well wouldn't I be amazed?

Fascinating year it's been.

That's an amusing sub line. :)

Could be a newspaper heading: Snow warning for higher elevations, Traffic lights malfunctioning on Main Street, Park patrons warned not to feed wildlife. Oh yeah, and Temple excitement wanes in Utah. LOL

Mormonizm is slothful.

It moves so slow it thinks members may not notice.

Not just temples, but fervor in anything Mormon is waning.

How does one maintain excitement in the rote? You have Champagne and caviar for every meal three times a day and you soon would rather not see another sturgeon egg as long as you live and wish you could switch to a nice Cabernet and some french fries.

If you corner my family, they will express their willing-to-die-for-the-church emotions, BUT, that is clearly for show. The novelty is no longer there but the need for their brand of "Mormon Road Show" remains absolutely necessary to prove their superiority.

"Heritage Mormons" is the label on the package now although the ingredients remain the same. The tradition you mention is what drives the bus these days rather than the Holy Ghost.

Spoke to my TBM brother Friday. He is excited to get a temple just a couple of miles away. From what he was saying he and others are very excited. He told me Nelson has announced 80 temples in his short tenure. He said Hinckley had announced 70 in his tenure.

I asked him why the increase? Second coming is coming? He said that it seems like it.

Ask him if he has the courage of his convictions and is willing to put that in writing, and he gets to pick the time window. Not an actual $$$ bet (unless he wants to), but… if he's so confident, why would he say no?

If he hedges and mumbles 15-20 years, that doesn't seem "last days" to me.

He will say he doesn't bet.

The church financial department has analyzed every penny that members have and how those pennies can be transferred into church coffers. If members have to take temple trips out of town, that requires them to pay bus fees, motel fees, meal expenses, child care costs, etc. so members will not go as often. There is the possibility that they will have too much fun and transgression will happen.
If all that money can be sucked directly into the mormon church, temples are tax-free real estate investments. The church also has added advantage of FREE cleaning services! If the church sells high price tickets (and we know they do) and more often--it is a win-win for LDS, INC.
It is a trickle down economy with a net at the bottom reclaiming every single copper penny. In the old days they MIGHT have used LDS owned businesses, but this way they can just kick a whole level of free enterprise out the door.
Isn't it marvelous?

>temples are tax-free real estate investments

People keep saying that, and it continues to be not true.

Being tax free property does not improve the value of the investment in the least. What it does do is lower the operating cost of the temple, but it does not make the land more valuable.

Investment in land is only valuable when you sell it at a profit, or take out a loan against its value. LDS Inc does neither with its temple properties. If they were to sell the land, the temple itself would be a tear-down, at considerable expense, which would come directly off the top of any profit made in selling the land.

Temples are not built as real estate investments. They are built to maintain current income right now through the "sale" of temple recommends, and to keep members tied to the church. Temples, even tax free, are expensive to operate and maintain. After all those expenses, and the final tear down cost if and when they ever sold a temple lot, I would not be at all surprised if the net (not including tithing for TRs) was a net loss.

The church brings in about $7 billion in tithing a year. It costs about $6 billion to run the church. Where the big money has come from is investing in real estate, businesses and equities over the years. The current bubbles in stocks and real estate has created a lot of gains for the church.

The church right now is bringing in more money from it’s business side than donation side but the leadership like that $7 billion in revenue, the free labor and especially the psychological power they have over people.

Let's hope they are paying their fair share of sewer costs.

Most of their sewage is spiritual, and does not require physical infrastructure.

More seriously, if sewer, street lighting, etc is a special assessment rather than a property tax item, they may have to pay it. The law may well have quirks I am not aware of, but if a homeowner cannot deduct a special assessment from their income taxes, then I assume the church would also have to pay for it as goods supplied by the government, as opposed to it being considered a tax.

I know I have had "specials" that were not tax deductible. [edit:] They are considered capital improvements to the property, and can be added to the basis of the property, and get subtracted from the price when the property is sold, potentially lowering the capital gain tax at the time of sale. I have no idea if churches are liable for capital gain tax on property sales or not. That kind of question is above my pay grade. [edit 2: they do not pay capital gain tax in the US]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 09:13PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Temples are not special anymore. There are temples in Heber, Tooele, Burley ID etc.......

It's also justification for the 100,000,000,000 pile in the chruch coffers. Gotta spend money someplace. What's better than real estate that may go up in value over the years.

The 3 pillars of the church were - Redeem the Dead, Perfect the Saints and Missionary work. They have now added a 4th pillar. Real Estate Development and its quiet little brother tax evasion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 06:55PM by squirrely.