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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 01:47PM

Henry Bemis once again called out a few RfMers for their squishy, self-serving sense of morality, as expressed under the guise of “purpose of life”. RfM needs more of this if only because Humankind needs more of this. Whose morality isn’t squishy and self-serving? Of course, no one really wants to discuss morality because no one really wants to think about morality. Why?

To think about morality is to create the possibility of coming up with reasons against our cherished feelings or desires or preferences or actions. No one really wants reasons to deny themselves or reasons for actions they’d much rather not make. Better to not think about it, which is the state of most people’s morality, religious or not, and which properly prompts Bemis’s ire.

So let’s think about subjecting dogs to our medical experiments, including vivisection, shall we?


In 2016 alone more than 800,000 animals were subjected to our experimentation in the US, but since dogs are our best friends, let’s focus on the 61,000 of those animals that were dogs. The dogs that were used of course aren’t the pampered dogs that sit at our feet or the dogs our neighbours are walking and playing with in the parks; no, the dogs come from breeding factories with all the attending cruelties, only to be sent to labs somewhere to be experimented upon. Let’s not be squeamish about this, they are bred to be tortured.

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/17/inside-the-barbaric-u-s-industry-of-dog-experimentation/

https://www.peta.org.uk/blog/cambridgeshire-beagle-animal-experiments/

Is this wrong?


Let’s dispense with the sentimental arguments first, which aren’t really arguments. People who are against the above are accused of being too sentimental about animals and not caring enough about people. Those levelling this charge are right, the arguments against are often based on sentiment. But so are the arguments for, because preferring people over dogs is just as much a sentiment. They prefer dogs suffer so that grandma has her medication; I suppose PETA types prefer grandma goes without her medication and spare the dogs their suffering. Neither of these positions are arguments, however, so what are the arguments for and against?

To get at this we first have to get to what is the meaning of pain, the topic Bemis and others were discussing. Simply put, is pain evil or not?

If pain is not evil then none of this matters. Both cases for and against animal experimentation are mooted. Neither grandma’s or the beagles’ suffering is an issue.

But most agree that pain is evil, grandma’s and the beagles’, and so the infliction of pain must also be evil. But what of necessary evils, pain inflicted for a greater good? To relieve an addict of the pains of addiction one must inflict the further pain of removing them from the addictive substance. In all cases like this, inflicting pain for a greater good, a justification is necessary. If pain is evil, then the infliction of pain for a purported greater good has to be justified. So what justifies the torture of animals?

An old-fashioned christian has at least some grounds to go on. We have been granted dominion over the earth and all that lives upon it for our own use, and, besides, we have souls and animals do not. For this, C.S. Lewis offered an ingenious argument: saying an animal hasn’t a soul is also saying that an animal has no moral responsibility and will not face an afterlife. Therefore pain can’t be corrective for the animal, it cannot deserve pain, and there is no moral gain from pain here or in an afterlife. An animal’s soullessness is an argument against inflicting pain upon the animals, since inflicting pain is evil. But what of our God granted dominion, our place in an hierarchy between angels above us and animals below us? Well…there’s room for argument.

The scientific (naturalist) argument is even more groundless. Not only are there no such things as souls, in people or animals, but there isn’t really a difference between people and animals, except that we are individually smarter and collectively stronger in our ability to survive and pass on our genes. People belong to just one of the many species of organisms inhabiting the planet. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the scientific argument still boils down to sentiment: we naturally prefer ourselves to other species, we naturally are smarter and stronger than other species, and so if other species must suffer for our happiness, so be it. People of this view have absolutely no grounds to be finger-wagging at the PETA people for their sentimentality. (Maybe a scientist here could make the more correct argument?)


An implication of the scientific argument (or lack thereof) is rarely delved into. If we are all animals, but our collective strength and intelligence allows for our using animals for our purposes, including inflicting pain, why does this not also apply to stronger, smarter people using other people for their purposes, including inflicting pain? Other people are just other animals. Why cannot the smart and strong inflict pain on the stupid and feeble? If people are nothing more than stronger, smarter animals than dogs and monkeys, why not just leave the dogs and monkeys alone and experiment on people directly? Scientifically speaking, I’m sure vivisection upon a fellow human would yield better, more accurate scientific/medical knowledge than vivisection upon a beagle.


Like I said, no one really wants to think about this kind of thing. Medical research is one moral horror, where our food comes from is another. Best to not think about it.

For my own part, everything in me, from first memories to this moment now, convinces me that I am just another animal like any other. But unlike those of the scientific world view, I am also just as convinced that we, animals and humans alike, are souls just as much as we are bodies. At least, that’s how it feels to me, sentimental whether I wish it or not.

Human

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 01:54PM

I agree with most of what you have said.

It might surprise you to know that not only would at least many Hindus agree with you, but a large segment of Jews would as well.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 02:56PM

No, not surprised. Good to point out, though.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 02:31PM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Henry Bemis once again called out a few RfMers for
> their squishy, self-serving sense of morality, as
> expressed under the guise of “purpose of
> life”.

Did you have anyone in particular in mind? Insulting to start a thread seems counterintuitive but then that might just be what stirs up a lively discussion here.

I try not to eat animals whenever possible. But civilization is a lens that distorts and enlarges what we are - instinctual animals with a great capacity to adjust and adapt and control our environments. So we have the animals we've processed and possessed with us in our trajectory likewise cruelly distorted.

It is one thing to make a moral judgement and quite another to apply that judgement to others as if one were judge and jury.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 02:53PM

“Whose morality isn’t squishy and self-serving?”

Think I included everybody on the planet. If you feel insulted by that, I understand.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:55PM

I don't feel insulted by it. I'm part of something I was thrust into and I have the ability to determine things probably mostly erroneously but I have the ability nonetheless.

You appear to me in this thread to have some sort of position to determine this morally?

"If pain is not evil then none of this matters."

Pain isn't evil. It is informative. The use of it in disturbing, cruel, and unusual ways is where I think you are sitting on a high horse.

But I don't know where your horse is going.

"For my own part, everything in me, from first memories to this moment now, convinces me that I am just another animal like any other."

If you really believe this then judging things are for animal and not soul's aims. So the horse you ride and you are one in the same and you have nothing moral to say.

"Is this wrong?"

I think it is because I have a constitution that tells it is. Obviously, many people have no objections to it. Does that make them less human than me or more so since I'm more inclined to think I am animal and not soul.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:06PM

The world could possibly be divided into two camps:

A) Those who wish they knew what to do, or wished they could be certain that what they were doing was "enough",

B) Those who believe they know what to do, and want to or are doing it.


Here's a thing: if we ran a fence around the entire earth and put the "A"s on one side and the "B"s on the other side, who could tell who was inside and who was outside?


Which are you, an "A" or a "B"? Obviously we mostly believe that the religious would be "B"s...


Yes, yes, the "C"s; those who know what to do but refuse to do it.

And maybe the "D"s? Those not interested in such debates, who just don't care as long as they have liquid, food, shelter, and the occasional cuddle...and cable.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 12:23AM

Or
E) We know it's wrong but do it anyway.

I like the example of vivisection. Such laboratories are death camps for animals. Like Unit 731 but with 4-legged prisoners. But, we like our medicines.

Same with the billions of animals raised for food in factory farms. We know it's a horrible life for them but here we are still consuming them.

If you did any of this to people, you would be roundly condemned and then put to death. Maybe it provides insight into how past generations could abide genocide and slavery. Humans are herd animals informed by culture. Their cultural identity overrides their instincts.

That can be good or bad. Take religion, for example. Even Mormonism, which serves as a cultural identity. It can be a stabilizing force. The fact that we exmos broke free could mean that we don't need a cultural identity, but are the exception not the rule. For the masses, religion makes sense. Otherwise, would we have civilization? Without such moral stabilization, it all seems to be teetering.

I say if you're going to be a hypocrite make the best out of it. If you're going to eat meat, make it a Chimichanga with tons of guacamole, cheese, sour cream, and chile sauce.

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Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:26PM

Looks like anthropomorphism with a side order of false equivalancy.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 12:39AM

Maybe a viewing of Jurassic Park is in order.

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Posted by: Maca not logged in ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:39PM

On the subject of dog experimenting I find it curious that an average pitbowl can get pregnant and have 11 babies at once, obviously in my mind this is so because the world is hard on animals, if we didn't eat them or something the world would be overrun in no time, also spiders explode and have 100s of horid little crawling things all at once too, it's all gawds plan!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:57PM

Are you eating dogs? How do they taste?

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Posted by: Anonymous Muser ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 04:25PM

Maca probably thinks hot dogs are literally made from dogs.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 05:26PM

And he must think the world is never hard on humans.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 04:29PM

I found this statement surprising.

"I find it curious that an average pitbowl can get pregnant and have 11 babies at once. . ."

That strikes me as admirably economical. Humans, for instance, need a full nine months between getting pregnant and giving birth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2021 04:33PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 12:29AM

Why aren't pit bulls taking missionary discussions?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 01:15AM

They're too busy. Every time they copulate, 11 pups pop out.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 01:39AM

No seriously, with that fertility throw on some lipstick and head out to relief society. I'm sure the pups would be popular in nursery.

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 04:25PM

Guy, what do you mean by "spiders explode?" Anyone familiar with basic entomology (science students and pest control) will tell you spiders lay eggs and spin protective sacs for the eggs. Some species hide the egg sac, others carry the sac. Some wolf spiders, for example, carry the egg sac and the young spiders that survive ride on the mother's back until they're big enough to move and hunt on their own. Though, that would look like the spider was exploding to a layman.

https://www.earthlife.net/chelicerata/s-reproduce.html

Also, if the world is hard on animals, how would the world be overrun in no time? You realize animals also eat each other?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 03:56PM

In the end, morality is the "town bicycle."

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 07:27PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the end, morality is the "town bicycle."

Yes.

And whether or not to punch the guy who took it in the fuckin' face. Niestsche would have it that to not do so is to be weak, cowardly, and false, because you know you really want to. Why refrain?

For example:


I'd like to punch the fuckin' face of the guy who loves his quarter-horse while cuttin’ the cattle and yet has stomach enough afterwards to send the beloved Palomino overseas, in a too-small crate, to be freshly slaughtered on the other side for another’s beloved basashi.

Of course, that’s not the horse that is sent. Preferences. Others will do:

(link apparently not allowed)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 07:35PM

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And whether or not to punch the guy who took it in
> the fuckin' face. Niestsche would have it that to
> not do so is to be weak, cowardly, and false,

What??? You have zero understanding of Nietzsche.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 09:48AM

An example of the kind of research we subject our best friends to:

"Our investigators show that Fauci’s NIH division shipped part of a $375,800 grant to a lab in Tunisia to drug beagles and lock their heads in mesh cages filled with hungry sand flies so that the insects could eat them alive," White Coat Waste told Changing America. "They also locked beagles alone in cages in the desert overnight for nine consecutive nights to use them as bait to attract infectious sand flies."

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/578086-bipartisan-legislators-demand-answers-from-fauci

The link includes a list of bipartisan legislators who have signed a letter demanding answers. If yours is not on the list, please contact them and ask why they haven’t signed on.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 02:26PM

Human: Don't ruin this post by making it political. The link here is based upon the "White Coat Waste Project," which is a controversial politically motivated organization. In that vein, it is ludicrous to blame or associate Dr. Fauci with animal abuse--and thereby attempt to undermine his general credibility--simply because some unknown portion of an NIH funding plan that he generally approved went to an organization that participated in such abuse. (If indeed that is the case.) Exploiting animal abuse for political reasons is not my idea of the moral high ground. Do we really want animal rights arguments--FOR OR AGAINST--to be associated with left wing politics? I am not say you are doing this here, but it *does* strike me as getting close to the edge.

That said, whenever there is a suggestion of animal abuse--even in politically charged contexts--it is appropriate to demand answers!

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 02:11PM

Thank you for this important reminder. I share your passion against animal abuse; including ALL animal experimentation. I generally support PETA's efforts in this regard, and am personally a vegetarian (who would be vegan but for personal relationship issues.)

Summing up your point: The thing to remember is that notwithstanding the fact that moral intuitions (without religious or metaphysical grounding) are relative; and thus hard to argue, it is still perfectly legitimate--as a matter of pure logic--to point out inconsistencies in such intuitions, which is exactly what you have done here.

When one's moral intuitions are inconsistent--i.e. when a person cannot make "morally relevant distinctions" between humans and animals, yet still insist on promoting or ignoring animal abuse in order to advance strictly human needs, it is not longer a question of just differing moral intuitions, but of logical consistency.

Evolution strictly teaches that humans are on the same *biological* footing as other animals, but then somehow not on the same *moral* footing. But, if all conscious organisms are just biological machines, where does the moral distinction lie? What possible morally relevant distinction could be applicable--other than just that we are humans and have the power to get away with our abuse. That position, of course, is not a moral position, but a purely political or social fact related to power.

I will add something more personal here. I happen to disagree with the materialist view that human beings are just "biological machines," as is evident from my posts. So, what about other conscious, cognitively adept animals? Are they too something other than mere biological machines? My answer is yes! Consciousness, cognition, and mental causation imply some metaphysical reality that transcends biology. This means that respecting animals as conscious agents in their own right, and as encompassing their own unique abilities, places them on the same moral footing *metaphysically* even if I cannot identify or define just what that footing is. Thus, abuse of animals is not just about competing intuitions, it is about the dictates of some overarching moral reality.

There might be a temptation here to criticize such a view as being idealistic and unscientific. Maybe so, but remember, Quantum Mechanics is based the 'reality' of an abstract mathematical "wave function." For QM to reflect the real world, then mathematics itself must have a "Platonic" ontological status. In fact, that is the position of most mathematicians, including Roger Penrose. Well, if the abstractions inherent in mathematics can have such an independent ontological, metaphysical status, why not morality?!

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 23, 2021 02:53PM

Many scientists ascribe their breakthroughs to metaphysical effects. They should know their own minds. While humans are capable of great evil, they are also capable of great good. Humans may be the miracle-producing animal, as described in the Gospels: "Greater things than these shall ye do."

Miracles of science could be exactly that. Things unachievable through strictly materialist means, but requiring faith and belief in the goal being pursued and of obstacles falling for no apparent reason. It's ironic that that aspect of the scientific process is itself a scientific taboo.

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: October 24, 2021 12:04AM

I wish people would experiment on themselves... and abolish torture, kidnapping, slavery, killing, etc.

Animal experiments have never sat well with me.

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