Here’s an excellent podcast to bring you up to date on the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Click on the podcast link below.

David Bigler, Revisionist Historian
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/david-bigler-revisionist-historian
Wednesday, our guest is David Bigler, a “revisionist historian” of the 19th century Utah and Mormon story. For nearly 50 years, Bigler has been a prolific writer and iconoclast, bringing insight to controversial events like the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Utah War. David Bigler and editor Will Bagley join Doug to talk about what we learn from clear-eyed history and an openness to “revision” as new sources are uncovered. They’ll also tell us a few good stories from Utah’s past.
Confessions of a Revisionist Historian: David L. Bigler on the Mormons and the West is a collection of David Bigler's scholarship, edited by Will Bagley.

I would offer a "return-and-report" from the Ken Sander's presentation, but please, listen to the podcast instead. Definitely less drama...

Here's a link (again) to David Bigler's book which they discussed and Will edited...

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Revisionist-Historian-Bigler-Mormons/dp/0692371206/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442521889&sr=1-1&keywords=david+bigler

I'll encourage everyone to "buy local" with this one--either Ken Sanders or Benchmark Books or perhaps Tony Weller's in Trolley Square--if you can, but I do have an Amazon account myself, so I keep that option open. And Cabdriver Confession: I was seen in a Wal-mart last night as well, after the get-together.

Alas, as a cabdriver last night, I was a bust. Okay, I'm going to blame that one on Will Bagley: I pulled up with my "date" (an old friend from high school who's very gay; yes, I was "making a statement" bringing him, but I'm as straight as they come, honest), and Will had just finished unloading his stuff. He looked at me--my own car is in the shop, and I was in a "loaner" from my parents--and said, "Hey, we need to go find Bigler." He didn't want to give up the parking spot right in front, but I guess mine was fair game.

Will had been busy, and had asked David--who's 88--if he could walk to Ken Sanders from the Alta Club where he was staying...

No Bigler... Will got in and we hauled @$$ over to the Alta Club, and he went inside looking...

Still no Bigler... Back to Ken Sander's... Nada...

Will started the presentation, and I was sitting in back a bit worried because Bigler--an old friend of my grandfather's--wasn't to be found.

Ten or fifteen minutes later somebody brought him in, and all was well... David played the straight man magnificently...

Will and I are still "slugging it out" over whether Joe Hill was guilty or not, but honest, he's not nearly as obstinate as Steve Benson...

Stay tuned on that one, and feel free to read the comments on the Trib site on Pat Bagley's cartoons... I started out minding my manners, but I wound up gutting and field dressing some "trollish sorts."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2015 04:57PM by SL Cabbie.

/cabdriver philosopher voice off

/psychologist voice on

One element of "obsessive-compulsive" thinking is that it a "paradoxical symptom." The obvious manifestation is someone "appears to be thinking too much," but the reality is there's a subtle bit of dishonesty in that there are areas of thought "an O.C. type won't venture." The result is lot of convoluted and excessive "rumination," and those "unexplored areas" are known as "obsessive pay-offs."

Facing and processing those payoffs is a goal of the "therapeutic experience"; they exist because of their "emotional survival value" because if their possible validity is considered, some uncomfortable feelings--often shame-based--will surface, and the "cognitive dissonance" will be apparent to outsiders.

As the Wise Ol' Cabbie--a former lawyer--used to say, "Speak softly and always carry extra one-liners."

Thoreau: Simplify, simplify, simplify...

. . . that is documentable and persuasive. I prefer sticking with what makes the most demonstrative sense and, in doing so, I can, with no apologies, be obstinate when of the view that the evidence warrants it. I'm with Will Bagley on Brigham Young being a prime mover behind the Mt. Meadow Massacre.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2015 03:37AM by steve benson.

See my reply below; I tried to put it up in the wee hours, but the board was down briefly, and I hit the sack. Suggesting I don't think Young was guilty is strictly a straw man operation.

I was thinking of the Kennedy Assassination where it took you years to "come around," and you're still spouting "Native American warpath" hyperbole about Christopher Columbus--ignoring the reality that he did bring "knowledge of the New World's existence to Europe" (unlike Leif Erickson), and the butt-ugly story of de Las Casas--who provided the only translation of CC's first journal extant, and likely distorted it. Bartolomé's works were used by the British--as guilty as any of excesses against Native Americans--as political propaganda tools against the Spanish. Our own country re-used them again in 1897 to justify the Spanish American War (look up "fearless yellow journalists" if you want some historical examples of your own profession's "excesses").

I'll document those claims if necessary, and I'll also give credit to another board regular here who's been a "sounding board" for me on this subject. He wishes to remain anonymous, BTW, but like me, he acknowledges a "sacred duty to history." That one applies even to atheists, IMHO.

The reality is Columbus died in 1506, barely 14 years after his first discovery; that's an awfully short time for him to have perpetuated all of the evils de Las Casas attributes to him.

/insert another big Cabbie speech about black-and-white thinking

Another good friend of mine, a retired history teacher and author in his own right--whom you insulted here--made a strong statement about "politically correct" history. Unfortunately, I'm also seeing a lot of the "salesmanship trumps scholarship" tactics in the problems he bemoans.

Our "enemies" among the LDS propagandists have a ready audience, and they invariably resort to the "simplistic" in their spinmeistering, and we cannot let ourselves be guilty of the same tactics.

A moment of silence, please, for the late William Zinser who passed away a few months ago. His book, "On Writing Well" has been a "bible" of mine since I was first introduced to it over thirty years ago. You would do well to secure a copy of it; it might help your "trim your prose" of excess lumber and verbosity. And that's strictly an act of self-preservation on my part; one old friend of mine--with a Master's from a real university--noted to me trying to read your posts made her "eyes glaze over."

Repeat Thoreau quote: Simplify, simplify, simplify...

Cabbie Corollary: Be very wary of the simplistic...

Now how about repaying that cab ride "favor" of a few years ago--the one where I sat at the airport for nearly an hour? You've mocked the time my back window popped out and shattered, but I've mostly kept quiet on how long you've had that Martha Beck first edition I wanted autographed. Folks' address is still the same...

(A note to the Objective History sorts: That "accident" with my old SUV happened as a bit of preliminary drama to a "tour" of the old neighborhood, where Steve showed his lady friend where he'd lived in the early 60's. I provided the last names for a number of the "kids from back then," and years before gave him the story of our old elementary school principal, Dr. John W. Fitzgerald, a long-time friend of the Tanners and a personal hero of mine).

You're cramping my "Exmo Missionary Style" there, ex-Elder. I've got another copy I'd love to loan out to a couple of "golden prospects," one of whom I had dinner with last night (still has his TR). He went to Morningside, BTW...

And please, stay the h#!! out of the way of my ol' police interceptor on the subject of Joe Hill. Years ago I had two lovely cab customers, Helen Papanikolas and her son, Zeese. Zeese, who's a history professor in his own right, expressed to me the view that Hill "was probably guilty." Zeese, incidentally, is a history expert in his own right, and a former colleague of no less than Wallace Stegner (who also believed in Hill's likely guilt).

Unfortunately, the popular media has embraced Adler's book, and I read it and had to reach for the Pepto bottle.

/repeat speech above about politically correct history...

I haven't heard back from Zeese yet; he may be too shrewd to speak up at this point (I'm hopeful, however). I noted to Will a book that argued Hill was guilty would be a very poor seller...

There's considerable circumstantial evidence Hill was guilty, and no less than Ron Yengich has a website on the subject of his trial. Yengich is circumspect on Hill's guilt, but he does insist he received a fair trial.

I've already indulged in a some out-of-character statements on that one; the LDS Church was largely uninvolved.

Ah well, I'll conclude with a bit from that great Western, "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance":

>Ransom Stoddard: You're not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?

>Maxwell Scott: No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

/history class dismissed

. . . and can be demonstrated to my satisfaction.

In that regard, as I do with many subjects that interest me, I think it would be safe to say that I have read much more than you have on the assassination--from numerous and often conflicting angles covering the waterfront--and have a copious personal library on the subject to prove it. That's what we do in the news business, especially when we enjoy the challenge of historical investigation. (The JFK enterprise included me personally speaking with former Texas governor John Connally at the Texas School Book Depository, where he described to me the killing of Kennedy as he experienced it from his vantage point of having been in the motorcade traveling down Elm Street).

Speaking of historical investigations, with you being a believer, do an historical search on god and see what you come up with. When was they last time he spoke to you? Please document--for the record--the time, place, circumstances and what he told you). That would be the ultimate name-drop.

At any rate, this thread is not about the killing of John Kennedy; it is about the massacre of non-Mormons orchestrated by Brigham Young. Nice attempt at diversion but do try to stay focused and up to speed on the topic at hand.

And learn to lighten up a bit. The failure of your rear window with me as your witness following you down that SLC street as an historical event that was absolutely hilarious. Just be glad I was there in the moment to inform you of what you were otherwise missing.

:)



Edited 24 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2015 03:51AM by steve benson.

I'm a Western history buff, so thanks so much for posting this! Is the book primarily on Mountain Meadows or is that just one essay? Amazon didn't have any reviews posted yet. :/ I've got the podcast bookmarked for listening tomorrow morning--didn't want to wake up that husband guy.

To falter in the face of forensic facts is no virtue.

. . . in the carrying out of the massacre when Young himself declared at the massacre site that he (meaning Young, not God) had taken some measure of revenge by means of the Mormon slaughter of the Fancher party.

While Bagley called Young's remark a smoking gun that pointed to Young's involvement and responsibility, he said it was the most important smoking gun.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2015 01:04AM by steve benson.

David Bigler made reference to Religious fanaticism and our not learning from history.


Brings to mind the following:

“Are you for God?” and if you are not heartily on the Lord’s

side, you will be hewn down.”



Brigham Young March 2, 1856 Journal of Discourse Vol. 3:226


________________________________________________________________


Also if I recall correctly Will Bagley made reference to the different stories concocted by the church to explain the massacre.


“In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of that company were destroyed by the Indian’s.”

Brigham Young Journal of Discourses March 8, 1863 Vol 10 pgs 109-110

. . . the local Native Americans for the massacre--which, when that dog wouldn't hunt, evolved into later explanations trying to put distance between the Mormon Cult and the murder victims.

But, hey, start out blaming the not-so-white-and-delightsome brown people; yeah, that's the ticket.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2015 01:51AM by steve benson.

. . . the discovery of the additional gravesites will guarantee that Mountain Meadows becomes a national monument.

The Cult's worst nightmare.

That was when he watched his men tear down the cairn, right?

That Brigham Young was simply acknowledging that tearing down the monument was "payback" for the Army meddling in Utah affairs... If you can get them say anything in the first place...

Don't get me wrong; I e-mailed Will about that statement--when I first heard it in 2002 at his presentation here--and asked to be pointed to the documentation (he gave Dudley Leavitt as the source, as I recall). I did think it was pretty damning at the time...

For me, BY's guilt is obvious, even if the evidence is circumstantial. Would 70 or so faithful LDS priesthood holders have committed the cold-blooded murders of over a hundred individuals, most of them women and children--and an unknown number of apostates who'd joined them--without express orders from "The Mouthpiece of God"?

And why, if they didn't have direct orders, wouldn't they have waited for Haslam to return from Salt Lake with Young's answer?

Well BYU better get busy coming up with a new inspired name.

And damn quick I might add.

How much $ is the Cult willing to spend to make this go away? You can bet they are looking at ALL options with more haste than ever before. I wonder if they can really ever catch the cat and put it back in the bag again.

I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night.

Thanks Cabster for turning your headlights onto William Zinsser and Wallace Stegner. You've updated my reading list.



“People read with their ears, whether they know it or not,” Mr. Zinsser says.

The written word looms over William Zinsser. The many hundreds of books in his Upper East Side apartment stand at attention, as if awaiting instruction from this slight man in a baseball cap and sunglasses who, for a half-century, has coached others on how to write.

In newsrooms, publishing houses and wherever the labor centers on honing sentences and paragraphs, you are almost certain to find among the reference works a classic guide to nonfiction writing called “On Writing Well,” by Mr. Zinsser. Sometimes all you have to say is: Hand me the Zinsser.

“Clutter is the disease of American writing,” he declared in one passage that tends to haunt anyone daring to write about Mr. Zinsser. “We are a society strangling in unnecessary words, circular constructions, pompous frills and meaningless jargon.”


My sister lent me her copy of Stegner's book and I lost it before I finished it. You've reminded me I owe her another book.

Thanks again and a free ride to the top ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2015 10:49PM by Shummy.