I have first-hand knowledge of a recent Mission President who excommunicated relatively soon after returning home. I've waited awhile to share this here. Multiple instances of adultry going back through his prior calling as a stake president and before. As to how I know, I'll just say I was in a HP calling at the time. As to who it is, I'll leave it to others to 'out' the guy (board rules you know). For trolls and such, perhaps I was in the court of love...

Anyone else have similar examples of the powers of decrement in action? If someone here thinks/knows they served under him do chime in.

He was a real asshole as SP. Really came down on people and enforced his own stricter ideas doctrine and what it meant to keep the commandments. The irony of it all is palpable.

MP callings come from the GA's and ultimately done by the 15. Selected from the pool of names for higher callings submitted by SP's and above who supposedly know them well and are vetted through the same CIA like vetting process that GA's are subject too.

I was also in HP level calling when he was SP. When he was called to be a MP was when all my doubts about my or others having any powers of decernment were confirmed.

I'm amazed they got rid of him. I've heard tale of other members just getting slapped on the wrist for bad behavior.

I was thinking something similar. The adultery was an excuse to get rid of him and discredit him within the church. He must have asked the wrong questions or else he would have been "forgiven" and kept in secrecy.

Perfect Obedience to the leaders is all is required.

I thought this too.

He must not have received the 2nd anointing.

Yeah, if he had there there would have been no excommunication. Only thing that can get you that and nullify their "2nd annointing" BS is murder.

Everyone knows the (claimed) extra-ordinary discernment thing is a FARCE in Morland, but (of course) no TBM will admit-acknowledge it.


Different people have varying amounts of intuition, etc; some are better at reading deception signs (body language, tone of voice, etc.); if this was a key selection criterion, I suspect lawyers & cops would go to the head of the list.

They tell people they can "discern" things so that you will be nervous and confess. Much of their discernment is obvious looks of guilt and concern when they ask you tough questions. If you can maintain a poker face, they have no better discernment than random guessing.

axeldc Wrote:
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> They tell people they can "discern" things so that
> you will be nervous and confess. Much of their
> discernment is obvious looks of guilt and concern
> when they ask you tough questions. If you can
> maintain a poker face, they have no better
> discernment than random guessing.

Indeed. It's like a polygraph test in law enforcement: the test "works" because it scares guilty people into confessing, especially when the "examiner" tells them, "Hmm, there's some problems with your responses...". :)

When I was starting to come out, I was Stake Exec Secretary. We had Vaughn J. Featherstone come to our Stake Conference. On Friday, I had gone out to dinner with some gay Mormon friends and we talked about coming out, leaving the church, etc. On Saturday and Sunday, I spent all day at church for conference. We had lunch catered by the RS, and I sat right next to Featherstone for lunch. I also participated in the early Sunday morning prayer meeting with the stake bishops, etc.

During the conference, he made several homophobic remarks and made several references to the sin of homosexuality. He was clearly ignorant on the subject, as he comments reflected the bigotry of someone who knew nothing about gays other than the sad confessions he heard as a church leader.

At the end of the conference, Featherstone turned to me, shook my hand and said, "I'm so glad we have such faithful young men in our church." I thought, "He has no idea I'm gay, nor that I'm thinking of leaving the church."

It was just another nail in the coffin of my testimony. If a GA could not tell that I was on verge of apostasy and choosing a gay life, what discernment did my bishop or SP possibly have?

You must be a kind soul to not knock that guys teeth out or just letting him have it. It makes me sad that you had to put up with such thoughtless and cruel behavior. I'm also glad you got out and that you can be true to yourself now.

It was all so raw and new for me. I wasn't sure at the point what direction I was taking, which is why I kept doing my church job will researching on gays and church history.

It retrospect, you are right, but I wasn't there at that point.

About a month later, my bishop accused me of having a fling with another guy in the ward (not true, though I kinda wished it were). I quickly figured out where he'd heard this from. From the time I left his office until the time I got home, I'd mentally left the church. I said to myself, "Who does he think he is?", and then it struck me that he's a nobody who only has power over me because I give it to him. I never attended that ward again, and hardly ever attended church at all after that.

Isn't a great feeling when you realize they have ZERO power over you?

Actually, for me the only time he hurt me or mine was when he was mean to one of my kids in their interview to put in their missionary papers. Shamed and guilted them for not having done something minor he thought they should have as part of their personal mission prep. Completely ignored that they did significantly more than most to get ready.

It was then that I started to pay a lot more attention to how he handled things in other contexts, what he said in public and private, and realized whisperings of deeds past were probably credible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2015 11:05AM by mannaz.

He was mean to one of your kids? Cruelty to my kids is a gloves off and face my wrath response. We all put up with way too much in that stupid cult.

I cannot imagine my reaction had a bishop or SP verbally abused my children. Actually I do...and it would not have been a PG response. So glad my children never saw the inside of a Mormon church.

He really went to town on the "spiritual wives" aspect of gospel doctrine.

What the church teaches, and professes, is diametrically opposed to moral living.

It's like talking out of two sides of its mouth.

It punishes men for imitating the prophet Joseph.

But it doesn't punish Joseph. What's with that?

+1

It's the doctrine of 'give Brother Joseph a break'.

I've never come across the word decrement before (it's not even in spellcheck), but I like it:

DECREMENT. 1. : a gradual decrease in quality or quantity. 2. a : the quantity lost by diminution or waste.

Ch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never come across the word decrement before
> (it's not even in spellcheck), but I like it:
>
> DECREMENT. 1. : a gradual decrease in quality or
> quantity. 2. a : the quantity lost by diminution
> or waste.

It's just the opposite of INCREMENT: a gradual increase.

Next time I pay Scrabble--BAM!

If another player asks, I'll say "It's what's happening to the Mormon church."

Damn that autocorrect! :)

Ummm, Mark Hoffman?

Hinckley gave a general conference address trying to explain away the Joseph Smith III blessing, which turned out to be a fake - https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1981/04/the-joseph-smith-iii-document-and-the-keys-of-the-kingdom?lang=eng

"[ed. note: This blessing was later discovered to be a forgery, a fact that in no way affects the history of priesthood succession in the Church or the wisdom of Elder’s Hinckley’s observations herein.]"

The ed. note is amusing. They may as well have said, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

Much much more recent

Any indication of how many people he excommunicated for adultery while operating in adultery himself?

I didn't even think of that! What irony.

It's actually a very common thing. Adulterous SPs, SP counselors, high council members, and bishops excommunicate and otherwise discipline people all the time for sexual "sins" while in relationships themselves.

So true. But for me I could rationalize that (amazing when I think back). However, at the MP level it was just too much to rationalize that. I lost the last bit of my 'virginity' ther and now see the whole matter for what it is.

I don't think that I could have rationalized that kind of behavior. I just had my head in the sand and didn't think those kind of things happened with leaders. I guess I thought there was some kind of magical thing that happened to PH leaders to make them non-sexual and uber righteous.

I don't know how many people he may have excommunicated while SP. He was a real 'law and order' asshole so I imagine at least whatever might be typical plus some.

Any updates? Can anyone name him?

Agnes Broomhead Wrote:
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> Any updates? Can anyone name him?

He wasn't from Cedar City by any chance, was he...?

It would be doxing to name names and that is against the site rules. I am comfortable saying the guy was not from cedar city.

Surprised my thread got picked up again after two years. Shortly afterwards I 'quit' the bishopric I served on and completely 'left the building' - I well out of the loop for any updates on where the guy is at now. When he was called to be a MP any illusions I may have had about power of discernment went out the window. He was known to be a real piece of work before he got the MP call. But he was wealthy, young, and stereotype GA persona.

mannaz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be doxing to name names and that is
> against the site rules. I am comfortable saying
> the guy was not from cedar city.

Cool.
Interesting, though, that a person fitting your entire description *very well* (including having been an MP) and having been ex'd is someone I know. But from Cedar City :)

Clearly this isn't a unique situation...

That is pretty amazing. You would think there would be better 'vetting'. This case is outside Mordor.

mannaz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Really came down on
> people and enforced his own stricter ideas
> doctrine and what it meant to keep the
> commandments.

That seems to be common behavior among guilty people in positions of authority.

HP? What do the high priests have to do with this?

Or does that mean something else? Or did you mean something else--HC perhaps for high council?

You typically Become a High Priest when you are given a calling that requires that 'priesthood'. These callings boil down to carrying out church policies and overseeing that the various auxiliaries are towing the line. As part of the HP specific calling you often become privy to all kinds of personal information and other things being kept on the 'down low'.

Was he married to a Farnsworth girl and serve in South America?

I don't think so. But his wife's illness was the cover story when he was released early if that helps.

My ex was the ward executive secretary, meeting at least once a week with the entire bishopbric. At this same time, he was having an affair (at least one) with his client. The bishop did not "discern" anything. That's when I lost my belief in the power of discernment.

I bear my testimony about the Gift of Discernment. I was ordained an Apostle in 1918. In 1925 I began an adulterous affair. It went undetected for 18 years. During that time I had to put my affair on ice for 2 years 1936-1938 because the First Presidency made me the European Mission President. This was right before WW2 so Heavenly Father was so obviously concerned about preparing Europe for that great war that he put an adulterer in charge of all the missions there. In 1940 my wife became General President of the Relief Society. In October 1943 I welcomed two new Apostles into our Quorum - Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson - and once again was sustained myself as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Of course if anyone had voted NO against me, such as having a concern that an Adulterer should not be a holy Prophet/Seer/Revelator, then they would have been in apostasy. But alas for 18 years every conference I got the votes and got sustained as a holy Apostle and Prophet/Seer/Revelator.

In Nov 1943 the Salt Lake police caught me in bed with my mistress. With the news on this now in the public the Holy Ghost suddenly gave the Brethrne the gift of discernment. I was ex'ed within a week.

Hey, Richie, when you died, did your Second Anointing work to your satisfaction as a 'get out of jail' card?

President Philanderer of PR?

If you mean 'Lanny' Philander Knox Smartt past MP Puerto Rico, prior to that SP of the Bessemer AL Stake in Birmingham AL, then Yes. There are links on some other threads to the recent Salt Lake Tribune article as well as an arrest in Florida in 2016 (latter assumed to be related to his recent divorce). The above is all public record and has been significant discussion on this, the other 'in another place' exmo discussion board, and several 'faithful' discussion board. So this is all well in the public domain now - hence I assume no longer a potential 'doxing' issue.

I believe there is a current MP in Puerto Rico whose last name is Smart - oh the irony.

Edit: There are also other threads on this discussion board about this with all the above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2018 08:12AM by mannaz.

This photo reveals everything you need to know about “discernment”

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=4372740&itype=CMSID

Yep...I have always loved that photo. You are absolutely correct...that photo tells you everything you need to know about Mormon discernment.

Let's see Mormons who may be reading and viewing the photo. If these guys cannot discern the decption that is Mark Hoffman - why do you think that the holy ghost is a real power/guide in your life? Why wouldn't the power of discernment help the five profits? The answer is quite simple, right? The simplest explanation is usually correct. There is NO discernment...none..el zippo.

Let's see who is there? Kimball and Hinkley.

Packer, Romney, and I believe that is Benson maybe?

That's a lot of fire power in that room and NOTHING. They were all bamboozled hook, line, and sinker. Wow. Crickets.

), with two venerable apostles (,

With Kimball is N Eldon Tanner, Marion G Romney (the 1st presidency at that time), Hinkley and Packer.

Our SP was excommunicated for having an affair w/ an investigator. She was very attractive, married, etc. He would call her in for interviews and blessings, and then put the moves on her. He was ex'ed, but what is very impressive is that he stayed married to his wife and kept coming to church.

In the months that followed, I personally saw Mormon member of his ward and stake eye him like he was the devil. Twenty years later, and they still view him like a freak show when he walks down the halls. You have got to be a sadist to keep going to a church week after week where you are viewed w/ such horror and disdain Sunday after Sunday. I couldn't do it. How he does it I have no idea. I feel sorry for him now.

This is a great thread...I hope Eric keeps this is a keeper. The three favorite examples that I now have and that every Mormon should really take note (as referenced above) are:

1) Hinckley conference talk trying to explain away the forgery
2) Apostle Richard B. Lyman
3) The picture of the profits w/ Mark Hoffman

How can any Mormon see these three recent examples and still maintain that their leadership are men of God who are real prophets and seers? and then keep paying your hard earned tithing to these men? Really? The thought makes reason stare (like a deer in the head lights).

The guy who was the worst on my (ex)hubby's high council court had been the bishop of our ward when we first moved there, then put on the HC. I was pretty much ordered to be there by the SP and this jerk was asking XDH all kinds of questions that were killing me because I hadn't even asked him those because I didn't want to know. And XDH answered them while I sat there mortified. At the very end the ass asked the SP if he could ask me a question, which SP said was ok, and he asked me, "do you feel like you sexually satisfied your husband?" So with 17 pairs of male eyes on me, all I could say was "obviously, not."

About 6 months later it came out that the HC asshole had been having an affair for several years with a girl younger than his oldest daughter and it was going on even when he was our bishop.

Yeah, spirit of discernment... not so much.

About 20 years ago, the SP (Stake President) and a MD (Medical Doctor) in our area was ex'd for having sexual relations with a nurse. She was addicted to pain pills. He would write her illegal pain pill prescriptions in exchange for sexual favors. I think it was very awful and despicable how he took advantage of this poor lady who was addicted and vulnerable. He also was convicted of criminal charges, but only got probation and did not have his Medical License revoked.

Almost a year after his excommunication, he was re-baptized and restored to full fellowship. He was the Executive Secretary in the ward for a long time. What made me angry was that ward members would still address him by President _____________ even though he was not honorably released from his calling as SP. He was very smug and arrogant. I hated going to High Priests Quorum lessons because he always made judgmental and self-righteous remarks.

He passed away a few years ago. At his funeral and his obit still mentioned him as President _________ and what a great SP he was. Just another example of the favorable treatment that the morg gives to the "elite members".

The church overlooks a lot of sins as long as you pay tithing.