I've been waiting for this.

Waiting for religious nuts to start going after the classic "Judeo-Christian-Western" values they place on a pedestal, that is...and the Rennaissance is about as classical as you can get.

There are two famous versions of David -- one by Donatello and the more famous version by Michaelangelo.

Donatello's David depicts him as a pre-pubescent youth, and was critized at the time for being ephebophillic, while Michaelango depicted David as a full-grown adult male and was seen as depicting the strength and manly virtues of Florence.

Now, centuries later, it's Michelangelo's version that's suddenly "offensive" and "pornographic" -- at least for fundies.

How things change...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/florida-principal-out-after-viewing-of-michelangelos-david-upsets-parents_n_641c621ee4b0fef15248d867


The principal of Florida’s Tallahassee Classical School is out of a job after parents complained that their sixth-grade children were shown Michelangelo’s 16th century “David” sculpture, with one parent calling it “pornographic,” the Tallahassee Democrat first reported.

The now-former principal, Hope Carrasquilla, told HuffPost the situation was also “a little more complicated than that,” noting that the usual protocol is to send parents a letter before students are shown such classical artwork.

Carrasquilla said she had taught in classical education for a decade and knew that “once in a while you get a parent who gets upset about Renaissance art” — hence the letter. She was not surprised by the reaction from the school board chair, Barney Bishop, but the fact that other board members went along with him was unexpected.

As I pointed out to Huffpost: it's not like the kids have no idea what a peepee looks like.

There is a social stigma regarding acknowledging that either people know what a peepee looks like or they don't ...

And if you don't, "polite society" is not allowed to be the one to instruct you.


If memory serves, BYU had Rodin's 'The Thinker' on campus for viewing but covered his peepee in order to comply with the above-noted rule.

People and trains are being derailed with increasing frequency

Middle- minded common-sense people don’t seem to have a voice anymore.

Hillsdale College, which the article refers to as a "conservative Christian institution," has no business setting up public charter schools.

>> In a call with HuffPost, Bishop emphasized that the nude sculpture incident was one of multiple issues with Carrasquilla.

This is the school's third principal since 2020. If a school is churning through that many principals in such a short amount of time, something is seriously wrong with the school and its governance process.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hillsdale College, which the article refers to as
> a "conservative Christian institution," has no
> business setting up public charter schools.
>

In what country do you reside that you believe this? No one is forced to go to this school, unlike the many thousands of children of parents who are forced to send their kids to leftwing indoctrination camps parading as public schools today.

I am a Conservative Christian and I teach art history to college students. I've had no problem presenting the two statues mentioned to my students. Some Christian parents of young students do, however and it is their right to be informed when a lesson includes these works.

Sometimes I wonder if some posters have thrown their common sense out with Mormonism when posting on here.

Public schools are “leftwing indoctrination camps?” I guess that makes summer a Marxist radical.

You may have a point, though. Her giving poor kids pencils at her own expense is a sort of invidious socialism masquerading as personal generosity.

Now may I please have another cup of that delicious purple sugar water?

If you value everyone and don't discriminate against them, or tell them they are lesser than because of their race, or sexual identity or orientation, that's "left wing indoctrination?"

I don't tell you how to pray or who or what to pray to, nor do I care.

What kind of warped religion teaches this?

"Good Morning, students. Some of you are part of God's Plan, blessed with white skin and cis-het sexuality, and the rest of you are not. It's not your fault that you are the spawn of Satan, but you have no place here. Please leave now. Have a nice day!"

And what, pray tell, do you consider to be "left wing indoctrination?"

This should be interesting...

Any facts to back that up? Or are we to trust your political judgment as a teacher of art history?


ETA: Replaced "professor" with "teacher" because it may have been a mistake to give you the benefit of the doubt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2023 12:04AM by Lot's Wife.

Well hell, I guess that settles it.

The conservative christian art teacher has spoken. The thinking has been done.

LOLOLOLOL

I never understood trading one form of religious oppression for another.

Love,
Beth who was raised a Fundamentalist Christian, toyed with the idea of converting to Mormonism after watching the PBS show, “The Mormons” while high on goofballs, found RFM, and the rest is history!

--Notmonotloggedin making a sweeping generalization about politics without offering any evidence or reasoning at all.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2460277,2460378#msg-2460378

You have to wonder about a college instructor who thinks unfounded conclusions sufficient by themselves. The best way to get a good grade in that sort of class is simply to repeat the party line--"what teach said"--and then walk out of the exam.

And yet she tells us it is the public schools that are the bastions of illogic and shoddy argumentation.

First of all, I don't think that public money should go towards religious indoctrination, and I don't trust Hillsdale to play nicely in that regard.

Second, I too, would love to know exactly what you mean by "leftwing indoctrination camps." In exactly what ways are we indoctrinating children? Please give specific examples.

Personally, I spent the majority of my day yesterday teaching children how to read and write words with short vowels. You may be alarmed to know that "Mac and Tab had a nap on the mat." Or that, "Mac had Tab's ham!" I also taught essay writing to older children, using that leftwing text, "The Magic School Bus on the Ocean Floor." My final task of the day was to teach proper nouns. I'm sure that will cause you to become enraged.

I will say this louder for your friends in the back: Teachers teach the curriculum. Each school system tells us exactly what to teach. So if you have a quibble with what is taught, take it up with your local school board. No teacher wants to be called on the carpet for teaching what s/he shouldn't. If we are teaching a sensitive topic, then we follow the curriculum and school policies with extreme care.

For the most part, what is taught in the public schools today is pretty much what you were taught. We have some electronic bells and whistles now such as computers, tablets, and smart boards. We have a few additional options for parents such as Montessori and language immersion programs. But much of what we teach has not changed. Elementary school children are taught reading, writing, and arithmetic. High school kids are taught English, Chemistry, and U.S. History. Oh, we teach about the Civil Rights movement nowadays -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, Rosa Parks, etc. Is that what is upsetting you?

So again, how exactly are we indoctrinating children? Please give specific examples.

ETA: Also please answer this question -- if so many right-wingers are deeply concerned about public education, then why aren't more of them training to become public school teachers? I've always been curious about that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2023 04:28PM by summer.

> I will say this louder for your friends in the
> back. . .

That's every bit as good as when you dropped the F-bomb.

I am *so tired* of public school teachers being picked on and bullied by the far right. So now I speak up, and I do what teachers do, which is to educate. But it is *tiresome*.

Public school teachers work extremely hard for not a whole lot of money. For many years I put in 50+ to 60+ hours per week. In my first couple of years, that was 70+ hours. Plus, as I've noted elsewhere, we often chip in our own funds to provide classroom materials and supplies. In an average year, that was $800 for me. For a teacher, that is a lot of money -- money that we should not need to spend. Is any office worker expected to buy their own pencils, pens, paper clips, copy paper, etc.? For one miserable year, I even needed to make copies at my own expense, because my school did not have a working copy machine.

The far right also picks on our unions, which from as far as I can see, are no different from any other union. Our union mainly negotiates pay, benefits, and working conditions, like any other union. The union steps in when our contract needs to be enforced, which happens more often than you might think. Oh, you don't think I'm entitled to a lunch? My union rep will be in touch with you.

Why the far right continues to pick on such hard-working, modestly compensated people is beyond me. I believe that it is unfair, immoral, and unpatriotic.

There are plenty of legitimate things about schools and school systems to gripe about. Go ahead and gripe about the curriculum, or how school systems are managed, or how they spend money. That the right continues to target teachers to me reveals them to be people of low character and no morals to speak of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2023 09:20AM by summer.

Amen!

I'm tired of all the crap public teachers are getting just because some people want their personal view of the world enforced on everyone else.

Teachers don't deserve the villainization the right has fomented against them. Thank public teachers for not covering up history or disenfranchising any kind of child. Thank them for their selfless sacrifices at their own expense so our culture isn't full of stupid people.

> Why the far right continues to pick on such
> hard-working, modestly compensated people is
> beyond me. . . it is unfair, immoral,
> and unpatriotic.

It absolutely is.

People like notmonotloggedin demonize innocent people and then turn around and cry "cancel" when those innocent people call them on their BS.

It's not just school teachers. It's also that rignt-wing Trump supporter who Tuckums & Company falsely accused of being an FBI agent provocateur on January 6, 2021; and it's the employees of Dominion Voting, etc.

The propaganda ruins careers and lives. It is cheap and irresponsible and cowardly.

The Magic School Bus and proper nouns? Oh no, the horror /s.

At least you didn't include lessons on pronouns. Can't have children learning that there are easier ways to speak and write than repeating proper nouns all the time /s.

Ha ha! Let's face it, Ms. Frizzle has always been more than a little suspect. Those wacky dresses!

I would be delighted if my students could use pronouns correctly. No, "him" is not going to the store. But "he" might be. lol

as far as I know, home-schooling is an available option for everyone, the communist countries are the ones who love indoctrination

Notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes I wonder if some posters have thrown
> their common sense out with Mormonism when posting
> on here.

Like the ass-ventriloquist calling public schools "indoctrination camps."

Difference between most Christians and Conservative Christians: Conservative Christians think "Ignorance" is the Eighth Capital Virtue.

Notmonotloggedin wrote in part:

"Sometimes I wonder if some posters have thrown their common sense out with Mormonism when posting on here."

There is no such thing as common sense.

Who knew that God created a pornographic male form!

In his image, no less



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2023 11:09PM by Beth.

Or more…

You never know until you know, and by then it’s usually too late

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In his image, no less

Touché!

Will they let me touch it?

I think sixth grade is too young for the David. I learned about the gorgeous statue from my high school sophomore history teacher. She was the best history teacher I ever had, then or later. She would not tolerate any sneers, leers, or disrespectful behavior.

When I finally saw the David myself, I was 59 years old. I had a lot of art history and two marriages in my resumé. I found the statue to be absolutely breathtaking, as Miss Ball had promised many years before.

When I saw the statue for myself, I don't remember seeing many - if any - children in the gallery. And I think that's the way it should be. They shouldn't see it until they are academically and socially prepared for it.

I think the problem is that this particular charter may have been operating without a set curriculum. And without a curriculum, teachers have to improvise. A more experienced teacher would have known better. My guess is that this was a young teacher who now feels that they have no place within the profession.

Don't ever let them go to Europe.

Yep, there are uncovered bits and pieces everywhere you look!

Those Europeans--especially the French--are seriously lacking in couth.

"Ugh! How can they show such filth?!"

"This is the Sistine Chapel, prude!"

I suspect the poster believes that right and left means correct and wrong,

https://youtu.be/UbvfiZI2xnU


HH =)

and reflected on the Burgers of Calais.

Then my 15 yo kid and friend saw the nudes of Balzac, and, yeah.

Kids!

But seriously, there are photos of ancient art depicting naked Minoans doing handsprings off the backs of bulls, fertility goddesses galore, nekkid Greeks wrestling… these things are in lots and lots of books.

No one reads anymore?

ETA FOILED BY AUTO INCORRECT! Add an H up there. Or maybe we’ve created a new sammich.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2023 06:45PM by Beth.

Here are some of Michelangelo's greatest creations.
If they could show this in theatres in 1965, why not in 2023?

https://youtu.be/p3PHVtTKpxA

My mom was an artist and we went to Europe quite a bit when I was growing up. I saw so many stone dicks and tits as a kid I don’t even notice it.

No wonder Europeans think Americans are juvenile uncultured barbarians.

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/florence-mayor-michelangelo-david-florida-school/index.html

The mayor of Florence has invited Hope Carrasquilla, the former principal of a Florida school embroiled in controversy over a sixth-grade lesson on Michelangelo's "David," to visit Italy after she was forced out of her job last week.

Writing to Twitter on Sunday, politician Dario Nardella said he would "personally invite" the American educator to Florence, where the statue is located, to "give her recognition on behalf of the city," adding that "art is civilization and whoever teaches it deserves respect."

The move comes after Carrasquilla resigned from her position at Tallahassee Classical School following complaints over a lesson that featured Michelangelo's famous nude sculpture of the biblical figure David.

Although the former principal told a local media outlet that one parent had complained the lesson was "pornographic," the school insists she was reprimanded for failing to follow procedure — alongside other unspecified disagreements — and not because the 500-year-old statue itself was considered indecent.


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/26/david-statue-florida-principal-italy-00088877


ROME — The Florence museum housing Michelangelo’s Renaissance masterpiece the “David” invited parents and students from a Florida charter school to visit after complaints about a lesson featuring the statue forced the principal to resign.

Florence Mayor Dario Nardella also tweeted an invitation for the principal to visit so he can personally honor her. Confusing art with pornography was “ridiculous,” Nardella said.

The incredulous Italian response highlights how the U.S. culture wars are often perceived in Europe, where despite a rise in right-wing sentiment and governance, the Renaissance and its masterpieces, even its naked ones, are generally free of controversy.

Cecilie Hollberg, director of the Galleria dell’Accademia, where the “David” resides, expressed astonishment at the controversy.

“To think that ‘David’ could be pornographic means truly not understanding the contents of the Bible, not understanding Western culture and not understanding Renaissance art,” Hollberg said in a telephone interview.

She invited the principal, school board, parents and student body to view the “purity” of the statue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2023 08:36AM by anybody.

I bet sixth graders would be fascinated by Manneken Pis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manneken_Pis

I think it was Pope Innocent X who started vandalizing art by putting fig leaves over the naughty bits. Christian suppression of art goes back a long way.

But then my TBM Mom showed us pictures of the great works of art before we even went into kindergarten. Including David, Venus, Lady Liberty, etc.

Censorship only makes the curious seek out the forbidden.