I've read this rumor many times on this forum but I've never seen a statement of fact. I've also heard rumors of living allowances and other perks but have yet to acquire hard facts.

I've also heard from the other side. TBM Mormonism says that the BoM and other JS scriptures are true. Evidence for them being true is nil.

So, is the $1,000,000 bonus for apostles a fact or a rumor, along with all the other financial rumors? Absence of evidence is evidence of bullshit. Harsh but true.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? RUMOR

I am not sure we'll ever know if the number is accurate, but the idea is that it is a "loan." Each apostle is loaned $1 million to pay off their debts, close out their affairs, etc., in preparation for the new job. The loan is never called in if the apostle stays loyal through the end but, in theory, could be withdrawn if the apostle shirks his responsibilities.

The idea makes sense to me, since the poorer and less financially competent of the apostles (read: Packer) would have monetary obligations when taking up "the mantle." But the most I think we've received in terms of confirmation is the word of some people who are supposedly in the CEO or close to the apostles.

It would be great if someone could provide more information on this.

I think this is the source for the information originally.

http://www.mormonthink.com/grant9.htm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8


Maybe this classic TV ad gives us a clue!??? Enjoy!

kind of irks me a bit that Grant's source doesn't provide some evidence so cult members could at least have the WTF conversation with the 15. Oh that's right the chapel Mormons can never get close to those guys.

Fine, this comes from FAIR themselves... So take it as a grain of truth. They try to point out that it is "minor" amount compared to CEOs of Fortune 500 businesses, what with their Golden Parachutes, stock options, etc... But CEO's don't have housing (worth millions?) given to them, plus perks.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend

I'm sure there's better resources, but all I've read is second hand conversations (Like the one from Grant). But it does sound reasonable. Maybe when Quinn gets his book out we'll know more. If anything Quinn over documents his resources which is why it takes him so long to publish because he's always double resourcing and vetting the facts.

Yeah, the idea that they should be compared to CEOs strikes me as ridiculous. First, these are supposed to be servants of God: you know, take all that you have and give it to the poor; take neither purse nor script; think not what tomorrow will bring. . . The scriptures say that these jokers should live off of donations garnered in their day-to-day lives, not enjoy a guaranteed and exceedingly generous "stipend."

Second, exactly which of them are competent to run a major corporation? Russ Nelson? Packer, with is CES paycheck? Hinckley, with his career at a second-rate newspaper? Oaks, that supreme court judge in a third-rate state? Holland? Uchdorf? If Uchdorf were CEO material he'd have become a CEO years before he became an apostle. Quentin Cook? No way. He was a successful lawyer, not a manager or entrepreneur. Eyring? Not that pedant. The truth is that very, very few of them could get to the top in the corporate world.

Which is not to say that the top of the corporate world is inhabited by good people, just that the average level of executive competence in the Q15 is way too low to make the CEO comparison reasonable.

You might be both underestimating the talents of the 15 and over estimating what it takes to be a CEO. Also, Uchtdorf was a pretty high executive for Lufthansa. Not CEO, but head of the piloting organization or something like that.

Two quick points.

Hurlyburly, I'll start by saying that I don't hold most CEOs in particularly high regard. But a lot of them, probably most, are competent, know how to use advisors, and decisive. At the very least they are politically smart enough to climb to the top and persuade others to give them large sums of money.

Apostles are generally--not universally, generally--much less skillful. Due to their long history in church service, they have less experience and less breadth than most CEOs. They also have little respect for advisors, since in the church all decisions are made top down. And they are not decisive, again because of the top-down leadership structure and the need for consensus: the norm in the church is for big changes to take decades to implement.

The point is clearer if we look at the individual members of the Q12. CES employees like Boyd Packer do not make large sums of money; he would have been lucky ever to have reached $150-200,000. Uchdorf did rise fairly high in Lufthansa, but there is a huge gap between his level and CEO, and in Germany CEOs don't make that much anyway, certainly not the American levels that the church is implying when it makes the comparison. Nelson? Other MDs? The medical profession is becoming so routinized, so dominated by insurance companies that most doctors only make $300,000 or so now. Famous specialists can make towards $1,000,000 but that is hardly "CEO-level compensation." Oaks? A state supreme court justice in Utah makes less than $200,000, as best I can tell; and there is no further upside in the state court system. Monson and Hinckley? You don't make a ton working for church companies like Deseret.

Obviously a few of those guys could run corporations and even earn very large salaries. But the vast majority were in careers and companies that don't pring huge salaries, certainly nothing like that implied by the church when it says they could be earning CEO compensation if they were not apostles. And for several of the apostles, $450,000 or so plus perquisites and loans and writing potential represent vast increases in their earnings.

Deseret News. I meant to say you don't make a lot working in Deseret News and the like. The CEO of Bonneville and a few others would make large sums, but as Hinckley's installation of his female relative indicates it's a lot easier to get those plum jobs if you already have an apostle/propeht in the family.

My point, though, is that Hinckley and Monson took a step up financially when they became apostles.

What the helll kind of work do they do that they get sky high CEO pay!???? I rather doubt that a lot of their sheep/ victims get that pay at their jobs(if they're lucky enough to have one).Arent they supposed to live on purse and script. Oh I forgot this is the morg and those biblical principles doesn't apply to them!!

I found the FAIR article very unsatisfactory, surprise surprise. They kept using phrases like "there's NO EVIDENCE" or they called claims "pure speculation with little evidence" instead of stating clearly what church officials do or do not receive. Because, apparently, they really DON'T KNOW THEMSELVES.

I love the part about the "round numbers". What a weird argument! That because people provide rounded off numbers, they must just be wild claims. Huh? I mean, we all know that apostles receive $1,002,586.07, don't we?

And then they claim that if the church DID provide actual numbers, ex-mormons would certainly dismiss it was a cover up. I'd say that would really depend on how it was reported and by whom.

"I found the FAIR article very unsatisfactory, surprise surprise. They kept using phrases like "there's NO EVIDENCE" or they called claims "pure speculation with little evidence" instead of stating clearly what church officials do or do not receive. Because, apparently, they really DON'T KNOW THEMSELVES."

Well you see, that's the problem. The church doesn't reveal the GAs' compensation, so FAIR and we are forced to speculate about it. If the FAIRies had any brains or integrity, they should be asking *why* a religious group---a RELIGIOUS GROUP, fer Christsakes---doesn't reveal the salaries of its leaders. The answer, of course, is that if the church published those salaries, that would contradict their decades-long claim of having no paid ministry.

The bottom line here is: If the GAs' compensation isn't excessive or out-of-line, the church should have no problem disclosing them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2015 06:02PM by randyj.

That's an albatross that is catching up to church leaders in this century. Is its cloak of secrecy over its accounting.

Sure those guys are paid megabucks. A CEO in similar position at other not-for-profits *on average* earn between 500,000-2,000,000 per annum. And their books *are* open and transparent.

We're expected to take it on faith that they're paid according to their wisdom and the *eternal order.* As in they deserve every last penny of whatever we [used to] tithe to their slippery behinds.

Now they're sweating a bit more as the money shrinks with fewer well-to-do tithers. Third World country members don't tithe nearly as well as we have, traditionally. Our numbers are shrinking, while theirs are growing. The church will or has reached its Zenith, and now it's in decline, perhaps even a *sharp decline.* Still, we are no the wiser except for the alarms being sounded as the membership continues to spiral downward.

All the secrecy of the LDS accounting will reap what it has sowed, from the ranks of membership faithful stewards to faithless "Get out of Dodge" taking their money with them as they go.

Its accounting methods are running itself into the ground as the resources continue to shrink and eventually dry up.

If its looking to City Creek Mall to keep it afloat, another financial disaster. Only the wealthy church officials [and cronies] can afford to buy there. Such investments are not long term financially sound investments in terms of return on the almighty dollar.

Now all we need is some unethical banker (I know, so rare) to come along and spill the beans.

Grant Palmer heard from an unnamed source he recognized as a Seventy. So what? It's still second hand. There is no proof and there may never be proof about the million dollars. The only proof I've seen of perks is from the copy of the MP Handbook.

What I'm trying to point out is that this board attacks any proof of the BoM with all its heart and soul but will spout off rumors going the other direction. Just be consistent and site sources for these so-called facts.

My personal opinion is that TSCC makes sure the apostles are debt free and have squeaky clean background checks before being called. There is likely to be IRS approved or at least very well hidden transfers of money to these guys and their families as compensation. But there is still no actual proof, therefore it remains in the land of rumor.

"What I'm trying to point out is that this board attacks any proof of the BoM with all its heart and soul but will spout off rumors going the other direction."

That's not really an apt analogy. The case against the BOM's authenticity is proven by widely-accepted scientific and scholarly research.

"Just be consistent and cite sources for these so-called facts."

It's impossible to cite sources for information on GAs' salaries that the church keeps secret. Decades ago, the Tanners published what info they could dig up, detailing how the GAs sat on the boards of the church's for-profit corporations, and received salaries from them. The Tanners relied on info leaked by insiders. So, in order to learn the details of the compensation today, somebody would have to leak it. Until then, we can speculate all we wish. I speculate that the church doesn't publish GA comp because the amounts would upset a lot of church members if they knew it.

THERE IS NO $1 MILLION LOAN. THAT'S BOGUS INFO. THERE IS STIPEND, PENSION AND HEALTH CARE. YOU WANT TO ASSIGN A DOLLAR FIGURE TO THAT. IT MIGHT TOTAL $1 MILLION OR MORE IF GA AND SPOUSE LIVE LONG ENOUGH.

Sort of like the FIFA guy?

"THERE IS NO $1 MILLION LOAN. THAT'S BOGUS INFO. THERE IS STIPEND, PENSION AND HEALTH CARE. YOU WANT TO ASSIGN A DOLLAR FIGURE TO THAT."

Gee, you sound pretty sure of yourself. Care to cite a source for your info?

Umm, no need for yelling. Reality is that $1,000,000 is not that much these days. Not that I'm saying I could make due with it, of course I could.

But I would imagine they are not supposed to discuss this either. Just another secret they have to keep.

I don't think any of them are hurting for money.

If you believe the anonymous source of Grant Palmer. Not that I don't respect the guy immensely, but it would do me nothing in arguments with my TBM family to take his word for it. I need more proof.

I think several of us have stated clearly that we have no concrete evidence on this stuff and hence our speculation must be taken with a grain of salt. To then claim that we are believing everything hostile to the church is simply false. But the fact that we don't have beyond-a-reasonable doubt proof does not stop us from trying to deal with the probabilities, including using second-hand information.

I'd also point out that those who say that there is no million dollar loan have yet to produce any evidence of that proposition, either.

Joe, there is actually a lot more compensation than the stipend, healthcare, and pension. We know, for instance, that the apostles sign over their wealth but that at death it reverts to their children, also that they earn returns on the assets they transfer to the church. We also know that their children get free rides to church colleges and probably substantial sums for attending other colleges just like mission presidents do. The apostles also get automobiles and huge expense accounts. And the apostles are allowed to trade on their status by publishing books that are distributed by a church-owned company and sold largely due to their church status, then pocketing the royalties. That, frankly, is also compensation.

Tom, the notion that the IRS has been involved in vetting the payments is hard to believe. The IRS does not routinely examine transfers--it acts when its computer systems or a whistleblower report flags something--particularly within charitable organizations, which have great power over how they manage their finances and even what they report. Recall that the mission presidents' handbook tells them not to report some forms of their compensation. And even if the IRS did review the compensation, so what? Lots of well-paid people take their money and then lie publicly about how much it was, which is not per se illegal.

Yes, this stuff is speculative. I personally believe Palmer's statement, give or take 30%, because it is quite similar to what my relative tells me he has heard from apostles and from a president of the first Q70.

I've read some of Steve Benson's well researched and well documented writings on this topic. The one million dollar forgivable loan going to all GAs would be consistant with previous church practices from times past, when the church was not nearly as wealthy as it is now.

If we had to prove every dishonest thing the church leaders did before we held them accountable, we might just as well go back to parroting that we know the church is true ourselves. So the question shouldn't center on whether or not they get the $1M or not. That question should stay in the forefront, along with other questions, like where did some previously not wealthy GAs come to own several lavish homes? How much are these so-called "stipends"? Why doesn't the church release its financial accounting numbers like some other churches do? Where there is smoke, there is fire. Too much doesn't add up right. If I had to wager on it, my money would go on the bet that says they do get the $1M. Let the church prove otherwise if this is untrue.

This isn't a court of law here. It's the court of public opinion. There is no need to have high and lofty ideals to adhere to when we judge these dishonest bastards after we know they have done. Until I see some accountability, they're all guilty anyway.

+1, well said azsteve

Agreed.

Anyone clever enough to rise to Big 15 status in a worldwide Mind Control Cult deserves to be very wealthy.

Think about it. How much money would YOU require in exchange for embarrassing yourself by lying with a straight face on TV about claiming all the JSBS actually happened?

And it's probably a lot of work doing what Apostles do all day. With no possibility of retirement.

Lie 'til you Die

Plus, having lots of money and having to hide or forego the nicer, outwardly visible luxuries money can buy would suck.

Big 15 get to mostly make do with the Rock Star celebrity worship heaped upon them by their clueless dupe brainwashees. That's gotta be a huge ego trip for both the Brethren and their eternal companions.

Again, I don't think they hide the trappings of wealth. How many homes did Packer have? Do you know any other CES employees that have as nice a wardrobe as he did? Chauffers? First-class airline tickets?

Yes, Quentin Cook and the new guy, the Huntsman CEO, would have had nice cars and suits. But for a significant number of those guys, becoming an apostle meant a big increase in worldly things.

Otherwise, I agree with you. It would be a horrible job and its chief appeal is probably mass adulation--which tells us something about the people who choose that life. A fair helping of narcissism, probably, in several cases.

"and its chief appeal is probably mass adulation"

You're absolutely right!

I think the real issue with this conversation is the secrecy fetish. It has only been about 6-7 years for me so I still remember how I felt about the GAs. If I learned that they were compensated back then I would have accepted it and moved on with my life. I even think that would be the case today for most of the rank and file.

The problem is the need to keep this stuff secret. They keep it secret not because of the compensation but because of how they fell themselves about the compensation. They feel guilty, they believe that the practice wouldn't be well received. And they fear the other items that are currently secret that they would have to divulge if they shared how much they are paid.

When Hinckley compared,these guys to managers in a Fortune 500 company, i would suggest that in itself is the strongest argument for taxing organizations claiming religious exemption.

Well, when the car cost $900.000, a million doesn't seem so far out.