As I read the verses below, which were proclaimed by the Book of Mormon Jesus in 3rd Nephi chapter 9, I am reminded that there is no such thing as a city with no babies in it.
Apologists would like to claim that Jesus's genocide was carried out because all the people were wicked. (As if that makes the slaughter OK.) But how could /all/ of the cities' inhabitants have been wicked?
><><>< 3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.
4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.
5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.
6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth; ><><><
Does it sound to you like the Book of Mormon Jesus is bragging? He goes on for at least four more verses.
The Mormon God has is a piker and a wimp in comparison to the God of the Old Testament:
Genocide was a tool used by God to further the interests of his chosen people. It is not usually clear what the exterminated peoples had done to deserve annihilation, other than being in the way of the Israelites or worshipping a different god.
The Israelites slaughter Hamor and his city and plunder it (Gen 34).
Moses is commanded by God to exterminate the Canaanites, the Amorites and the people of Bashan "and show no mercy" (Deut 7:1-2, 9:3, Num 21).
God commands Moses to slay the Midianites because the Israelites are seduced by them. All males (including infants) and adult women are killed; virgins are enslaved (Num 25:17, 31:1-2, 7, 15-18).
God's annihilation of Sihon's people and others (Deut 2:30-35, 36, 3:1-7).
God commands Moses, in any city near the promised land which does not agree to become a vassal state of the Israelites, to kill all the males and take the women and children as slaves and the animals as booty, but in any city in the promised land the Israelites are to kill every living thing, sparing no one (Deut 20:10-17).
Joshua, with the help of God, annihilates numerous tribes and cities, "left none breathing," "destroyed all that breathed, as God commanded" (Josh 6:21, 8:24-27, 10:, 11:11,14,21-22).
Judah slays 10,000 Canaanites (Judg 1:4) and 10,000 Moabites (Judg 3:29) Danites destroy "peaceful" Laish and kill its people for no reason (Judg 18:27).
Judah and Simeon utterly destroy Zephath (Judg 1:17).
Samuel tells Saul that God wants to annihilate the Amalekites, including infants and women, which Saul then does, slaying all the inhabitants except Agag the king (1 Sam 15:1-9).
David leaves no man or woman alive in the countries he invades: Geshurites, Gezrites and Amalekites (1 Sam 27:9,11).
God helps Judah kill 50,000 Israelites (2 Chr 13:17).
Esther gets permission for the Jews to slaughter all their enemies, including women and children, which they do, then celebrate it and institute the feast of Purim to remember it (Esther 8:11, 9:1-19).
"Let none [of Babylon] escape" (Jer 50:29).
"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children," says God (Ezek 9:6).
"Happy shall be he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones [in revenge]" (Psalms 137:9).
Samaria's infants will be dashed in pieces, pregnant women ripped up (Hos 13:16).
Other dashing of infants, ripping of pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12, 15:16, Isa 13:15-18, Hosea 10:14).
cytokine Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Apologists would like to claim that Jesus's > genocide was carried out because all the people > were wicked. (As if that makes the slaughter OK.) > But how could /all/ of the cities' inhabitants > have been wicked? > > ><><><
As a former Fundamentalist Christian, that's pretty much how I personally viewed it. Like a baby snake is still a snake, it will grow into a big snake, and then be deadly. I still hated the idea of babies being killed, never seemed OK to me, but it seemed like the only explanation to deal with that discomfort, and then to just not think about it. I guess because "God" is "never wrong", and not evil, there had to be some rationale for it, had to be the fault of the individual somehow.
In my mind today, it doesn't make sense that there are no innocents. I'm a nevermo, wasn't taught about existing before birth, but don't Mormons believe in some kind of pre-existing state? So really no "innocents" in Mormon thought, either?
This kind of stuff just gets more and more confusing to me, more and more questions, never ends.
tumwater Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It doesn't matter which source of information your > like, the OT or the BOM, all these passage can > make one wonder about the meaning of the > commandment, "Thou shall not kill".
Rules are made to be broken, by those that impose them. Thou = YOU shall not kill, or lie ( at least to them) , or steal, or commit adultery, but the people in charge they are going to do what ever they want to including all of the above. Just look at Joe Smith and Brigham Young. Thou shall not kill.... unless it's for them.
> Someone once said and I'm para-phasing them: > You kill one, you are a murderer, you kill 10, > your are a serial killer, you kill 100,000 you are > a great warrior.
Kill a 100 to a thousand, then you might be a great warrior Kill a 100,000, you are a King/ Emperor.
> It's no wonder all of the above invoke their > 'gods' as gods of war. That's what their books > say they are.
and then the Romans came along and wrote a new book to Mock the Jews and their Jewish God / Messiah. The Romans portrayed the highly delinquent Jewish messiah as a non conformist -some one who did not want to obey the foolish Mosaic Law, and as a weakling /pacifist -someone who did not want to fight. As a joke, the Romans say that the Jews were so dissatisfied with this highly disappointing non conformist underachiever that the Jews goaded the Romans into killing their Jewish messiah that the Jews were incapable of recognizing. To make things even more bitter, The Jewish Messiah then raised himself from the dead and left the Jews to fend for themselves. It was supposed to be a ridiculous story, but the subjects of the empire /kingdom loved it, and it caught on, to the point where the Romans, so ironically, finally adopted it as their very own.
Back up a bit from 9:5 and it talks about Moronihah again, but this time mentions the children who *were* killed. No need to read between the lines.
3 Nephi 8:25 "And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, AND OUR CHILDREN have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible." [Emphasis added.]
Those wicked, wicked children. Of course it's not the fault of Mormon Jesus. It never is.
cytokine Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The Mormon Jesus killed kids younger than the age > of accountability, just like he did in the Old > Testament. > > And my parents worship this guy...
"Because the people in Noah’s day were doing 'only evil continually,' the children had no chance to learn good from evil (see Genesis 6:5, 11–12; Moses 8:22, 28–29). Thus, God’s plan went unfulfilled and He determined to start again (see Moses 7:32–38; 8:17)."
11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
That is supposed to be about real events that happened in the Americas beginning with Columbus. The wrath of god allegedly caused the loss of human life on a scale second only to the story of Noah. The Biblical stories about the genocide on the Canaanites don't even compare. The lands promised to Abraham were about the size of New York and Vermont. The Canaanites lived in an area smaller than New Jersey. North and South America combined are larger than all continents except Asia. The god of Mormonism has supposedly destroyed more people over a greater expanse of land than anything found in the Bible excepting the mythical flood.
The wrath of the alleged god of the Book of Mormon brought the destruction of up to 90% of America's indigenous inhabitants, leaving only a "remnant". Any "God" that would afflict and destroy such a vast number of innocent people, and over such a large land mass, with smallpox, genocide, scorched earth military campaigns and ongoing attempts of forced assimilation, is one seriously sick puppy.
I am an atheist and do not believe in any deity. No god had anything to do with it at all and there was no god to stop it. I don't believe that a flood actually ever happened, and I don't believe that the Canaanite story actually occurred. On the other hand, the past 500 years in America have been real and Mormonism twists it into a sick fantasy. No other religion has canonized scriptures with such specific claims about the historic events in America. The Book of Mormon openly states that God's wrath was on indigenous Americans and his spirit was with European colonizers. Mormonism clearly teaches that America's indigenous people were evil and ripe for destruction and that is a reprehensible teaching.