Here's another hypothetical using what is probably the most current controversial topic in America.

Parents of a ten year old are told by a team of doctors and psychologists that their son is actually a girl and that she will naturally behave as a female throughout her entire life. The doctors tell the parents that the child has reached Stage II on the Tanner puberty scale and needs to begin puberty blocking therapy at once to prevent her from developing secondary sex characteristics. The psychologists tell the parents that allowing the girl to have physical characteristics within female norms will help the girl adjust and live a more normal life without being marked and will also reduce the chance of self hatred, self-harming behaviour and/or suicide.


The parents don't believe what they are told and dismiss it as nonsense. They refuse to allow the child to not only live as a girl but also refuse to allow her to be medicated. By the time she becomes a legal adult at eighteen it will be too late and will face a much more difficult life living as an adult woman.


What would you do?

Would you allow the girl to be treated or put things off until it was too late?


Update:

My purpose here was to propose a time-critical moral dilemma wherein disbelief in science and reason would make things worse. For example, traditional handing and ritual washing of the dead helped spread the Ebola virus.

According to current research, most children are aware of their gender at around three to five years of age and this is independent of biological sex. In the case of trans girls the biological clock is against them and successful treatment is in the hands of their parents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2016 06:55PM by anybody.

While psychologists might tell parents that their child *identifies* as a girl, no doctor would ever say a child is "actually a girl," and neither would psychologists (not reputable ones, anyway).

I get the gist of your hypothetical, but because it starts off with doctors saying "your son is actually a girl," it's more than a bit far-fetched.

It's a difficult issue, no doubt. Because there *are* children born with male chromosomes who identify as females, and vice-versa. As a parent, I'd face hard choices. My inclination would be to not rush into ANYTHING that is permanent...to see how the child develops without surgery and medication, and if gender identity is still "different" later on, to deal with it then -- without religious judgment baggage.

http://www.impactprogram.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Kuper-2014-Puberty-Blockers-Clinical-Research-Review.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2016 01:36PM by anybody.

I don't think it will be "too late."
Adults have gender-reassignment surgeries and take medication for it every day.

Just like I don't think an 8 year-old child is sufficiently mature to decide to join a church, I don't think a young child is sufficiently mature enough to make gender decisions -- or even to express them clearly, let alone understand ALL of the ramifications. Waiting until they're more mature to take "permanent" action seems wise.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2016 02:24AM by anybody.

I would suggest you research trans issues a bit more.

One way to help recognize transgender children is that they are often consistent, persistent, and insistent from a very young age that their gender is not what they were assigned.

Many trans children have been known to show these characteristics well before puberty. 8 is not too young.

The puberty blockers aren't permanent; when you stop taking them, puberty will happen.

So, yes, by all means start the puberty blockers before maturation. My trans friends WISH they'd had this option.

I'd say wait for permanent things until the child is a bit older.

That's exactly what's wrong with the world. People assume that your genitals define you. I think it should be the other way around.

I get that people want to be cautious as far as kids are concerned, but denying them treatment can do more harm than good. You act like kids can "just wait" to figure out who they are, but if their identity is already consistent (which it must be, for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria) then withholding treatment endangers them. They're at a greater risk for depression, suicide, and self-harm. Not to mention the fact they've just been invalidated by their parents. Any parent who withholds treatment for a trans kid is putting their comfort and and concerns over their child's health and happiness.

Also, hormone blockers are not permanent. The changes they prevent are. Funny how people balk at the "permanent changes" that come from artificial hormones, but it's perfectly okay to force the child to go through "permanent changes" so long as those changes are a result of the hormones already in the child's system.

Is it really "forcing" anything to let nature run its course?

Nightwolf has already mentioned this.


If you agree with the parents, you would be forcing someone who is for all intents and purposes a female to undergo irreversible physical changes and have a male body. All current research to date indicates this causes extreme mental stress and depression and other self harming behaviour. Approximately 40% of all trans youth attempt suicide.


I wanted to create a "science and reason vs. ignorance" scenario where the parents would not believe or accept the girls' (which is a term of gender and not biological sex) diagnosis.


There are many other issues like this -- creationism for example -- where religion, superstition, and pseudo-science make people make bad decisions, promote disease, cause harm, and prevent human progress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2016 11:11AM by anybody.

I think I'm not enlightened enough.

A ten year old boy, in my opinion, is just that. Maybe he wants to be a girl, or thinks he's a girl, but if you took his DNA and cloned it, a boy would come out.

As an adult he can be whatever he wants to be. But if I were the parent I'm not so sure I'd let my 10 year old make that kind of decision.

Do you think those 40% of trans kids who offed themselves wouldn't have done it if only they'd been allowed to have puberty blocking therapy?

I'm open to having my mind changed, although I don't think I have a strong opinion on this one way or another. But letting a 10 year old boy who wishes they were a girl make that kind of decision seems like it's going too far to me.

For reasons that are not currently clear some people have a gender that does not correspond to their biological sex. What is known is that gender is innate, chthonic, immutable, and can't be changed by external forces. Experiments with lab animals have shown that increased hormonal levels in utero can induce this condition. Brain sections on deceased individuals indicate that areas of the brain that control sex are like those of the corresponding biological sex. Most human children are aware of their gender from about three to five years old. Here are some of cases:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_Jennings
http://www.people.com/article/meet-identical-twins-jonas-nicole-maines-family-transgender-story


People like to make fun of older trans women because they "look like men in dresses." This is wrong and hateful but people do it anyway. It's not only an issue of aesthetics. Trans women are murdered at a much higher rate than the general population.

But what if there were another option? What if early intervention could alleviate some of these problems?

I wanted to create a scenario about parents who make decisions on behalf of their child that would hurt and damage their child for the sake of ideology, culture, or religion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2016 01:13PM by anybody.

"What would you do?"

I don't understand the question... In your situation, I'm not the doctor, I'm not the psychologist, I'm not the parents or the child. I'm also not a law enforcement officer nor am I a representative of the state or federal government.

There's not much for me to do within the bounds of the law in the situation you describe.

If I were the parent, it would be a different situation. I'd listen to the doctors, maybe get another opinion before making such a life altering decision for my child, but I'd like to think I'd listen to people who are smarter than I am on the fields they have studied for an want the well being of my child.

If I were the doctor or psychologist, depending on the laws for the state and/or local city/county policies, I might call CPS on the parents to do what's best for the child...

But I don't know what CPS can/could do in that situation as "harming a child" can be very difficult to define at times and even in situations of direct abuse, their hands might be tied in a situation like this. They might come back and say that, "Yes, what the doctors suggest would ultimately be better, but the child's life is not in danger and they aren't being 'harmed'". There's a story on the board right now where parents let their child die from a horrible but treatable illness because they didn't believe in modern, science based medicine.

It's not like I could kidnap the child and force a doctor to take the actions that might ultimately be better for them.

ETA: To clarify, after reading ificouldhietokolob's response... I'm assuming that part of your hypothetical situation that there is some test that can definitively state one way or the other and that there is some treatment that is time sensitive...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2016 01:42PM by Finally Free!.

I would do nothing. I have no power in the situation.

it's too bad that a license is not required for parenting.

Why would a doctor tell me my son is a girl? Don't doctors just look at the plumbing when assigning gender?

At birth you would know the sex of the child. You can't dispute that.Or are you talking about a case of a hermaphrodite?If the child was born with male parts but identified as a girl I would allow him to make the choice to take hormones at a later age, maybe between 14-16. This is what I would do as a mother.

And what would you do about your child's suffering in the meantime, just ignore it?

Why would you think I would allow my child to suffer? I would support my child in whatever they chose to do. Whatever clothes they want to wear, hair styles, name changes, etc. I just don't think giving medical treatment to my child at age 10 is the right decision- hence waiting until they are 14-16.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/male-reproductive-system/male-puberty2.htm

"The final stage of male puberty occurs anywhere from age 14 to age 18. During this time, a boy will achieve most (but not necessarily all) of his height. His body shape will have evolved to that of a man's -- his shoulders will be broader, his muscles developed and fully formed, his arms and legs and chest proportioned for power and masculine appearance. This is because new muscle fibers are appearing, and all muscle fibers are getting thicker. Pubic hair will spread out to the inner thighs and lower stomach. By this stage of puberty, boys -- make that young men -- will be shaving, and their pubic hair and sex organs will look fully developed. While hair and height and body type will look adult and complete, many males will continue growing and developing into their 20s."

The issue of transgender children is much deeper than the physiological aspect. There is a lot going on psychologically. A 10 year olds cognitive skills are not developed enough to make a serious decision concerning hormone blocking agents. Trust me, I have four sons and I will always be there to support them in whatever life throws them. My 2 year old son has long hair he refuses to cut. My 4 year old often paints his fingernails with me. I believe as long as a parent is supporting their child in their decision, drastic measures are not needed immediately. Of course nobody really knows what they will do until they are in that specific situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2016 02:26PM by nomorelies7997.

I find fault with the idea that there must be hormone therapy in this situation. I believe that this type of therapy and surgery are legitimate solutions but I don't believe them to be the only solution.

My two cents are the same as ificouldhietokolob's. A measured response to the physical, emotional, and mental maturity of a child is always preferable to quick decisions that have life long consequences.

Hormone blockers are different than hormone replacement therapy. Hormone blockers can be stopped at any time to allow puberty to resume. Hormone replacement therapy does things that can't be reversed. No one is suggesting that these kids go through irreversible changes, In fact, hormone blockers spare them from irreversible changes that the will undergo if they don't get hormone blockers.

Here is a recent photo of Willow Smith and her brother Jaden:

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/willsmitjkids.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=1328&h=882&crop=1

Jaden is non-gender conforming but is not trans. If Jaden had been on blockers he would have the same physique as his sister.

Let's not pretend "hormone blockers" are side-effect free, have no consequences, and are some sort of "miracle cure." They won't do anything to address the psychological issues that the child will be having, and IMHO are simply "faking" something in order for the child to not have to confront the actual issue of psychological identity vs. chromosomal reality.

As I initially said, it's a tough issue. But not immediately going for the hormone blockers doesn't mean as a parent I'm "forcing" anything, or not supporting my child, or being a bad parent.

Hormone blockers have side effects, but they're not bad, and they're NOTHING compared to growing into a body that more and more feels like a mockery.

Most of the "psychological issues" you mention come from rejection by family/friends/society. (Same as for us gay folks.) Those who are just allowed to transition do much better.

By not preventing permanent physical changes that are devastating to the child's psyche you are indeed being a bad parent by not supporting your child. You are rejecting their identity and putting them on a track where the outcomes are much less favorable. I see it as akin to denying necessary medical treatment. Even though you didn't cause the problem, and they may have a favorable outcome without the intervention, you as a parent had a responsibility to try to ensure the best outcome, which you failed to do.

(Please realize I'm not trying to attack but I am a bit passionate about this subject as my trans friend has described the pain of being seen as a "man in a dress".)

+1.0x10^9

Huh?

I hate how parents think they can just control their kid's lives. Unfortunately, my parents would've had the same response. There's no reasoning with them. They think they know everything. I hate how our system treats children like property.

As a parent myself, I would do whatever was necessary to keep my kids healthy and happy. That's all there is to it.

I thought the question was what would you do if a parent wasn't going to follow a doctors recommendation to use puberty blocking hormones for their 10 year old child who has sexual identity issues. If you're not the parent of the child, I don't see how you have any standing to do anything.

Religion does strange things to the human mind. It can blind people to truth and reason but also lead them to compassion, forgiveness, and understanding. Just because a person is able to escape from a cult does not mean they immediately abandon the prejudices that were shaped by the cult that took years in the making.

Most people are familiar with Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses denying life saving medical treatment in certain cases. I wanted a different issue that would span many different religions and groups. I thought transsexuality would be a good subject since Caitlyn Jenner is a current media celebrity.

It seems from the responses that most people are still not familiar enough with trans people beyond the superficial or salacious -- "'Playboy' Model Revealed To Be Trans" and that kind of thing.

What would you do if you had the fate of another life in your hands? What if you could help turn someone away from a lifetime of internal self-hatred and depression and suicide? What if you could reduce the chance of a child being horribly bullied or even killed? What if you knew this and then decided for your own reasons -- religious or social or political -- that you wouldn't? Would you deny the validity of the evidence presented before you?

There are no guarantees in life and life is most often a choice between the lesser of two evils. Absolute solutions to problems are rare. Sometimes bad things happen despite all efforts to prevent them. IfI had the decision to make I would listen to the evidence and would do something to help the child rather than deny the existence of a problem and delay before it's too late.

No loss of social status or religious taboo is worth the price of a child's life.