I have been friends for over 15 years with two active LDS members. I've seen a quality in both of them that I find disturbing and am wondering if this vice is encouraged in the LDS community. Both women are financially secure and do not have to worry about making ends meet. They brag about their wealth when convenient-they want to impress other financially well-off individuals. They like to talk about the designer purchases and how much they paid for something. However; I've noticed they suddenly become "poor" when they want a discount on a service. My husband has his own business. When the bill was due, both women asked for hefty discounts because they "needed help financially." This request after they had just purchased expensive jewelry, over $5000 for diamonds. They continue to spend on expensive jewelry, clothes, car, travel and home improvements, but I have first hand knowledge that they turn around and plead financial hardship when paying a non-Mormon for repair services. This characteristic of playing poor and their penchant for dropping hints about how wealthy they are to strangers has me wondering. Any insights?

What you're describing sounds like manipulation, laced with dishonesty, than outright cheating. Perhaps *deception* is the common denominator.

The cheating is a learned behavior.

There are many cultures that assume the first named price is not the final price. And there are other people who think that they should be able to get a discount when buying from friends.

If they are faithful church members they have to declare every couple of years to their leader that they are honest with their fellow men.

No, I wouldn't give them a discount.

But Mormons cheat Mormons all the time. All the damn time. I don't think that they cheat non-Mormons any more frequently. Mormon business people are known country-wide as people not to do business with. Lots of Mormon business people are in trouble with the law. There is at one Mormon minor GA and dozens of stake presidents, stake presidents' counsellors, high council members, and bishops who sit in federal prison. For God's sake, two former Utah attorneys general--both stake presidents--are under indictment, one looking at possibly 40 years in prison.

TSCC trains you to cheat yourself. It also gives you a "get out of hell free" card. If your life revolves around lying to yourself and cheating yourself, treating others the same comes naturally. The card makes it extra easy.

Also, Mormons are the only Christians who think they're Jews. They may feel entitled to screw Goyim.

They believe they are morally superior to the non-believing gentiles. It is a blessing to get something for almost nothing. They definitely brag about it!

A friend of my TBM mom travels everywhere from the Caymans to China. With a PI lawyer for a hubby, there is no shortage of money. Yet they brag to no end about the great blessings that their two kids had obtained more financial aid through FAFSA.

Just sickening.

No way, not in modern-day Mormonism. 185 years ago or during the Utah pioneer period–maybe. See topics associated with "Lying for the Lord."

Today, there is no doctrine or drive to cheat non-members, but my own personal experience is this: The most deceptive men I've ever met in business were Mormons, and typically they were cheating OTHER Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 09:02AM by Doubting Thomas.

When you believe you are more worthy and ,therefore, superior to others (whether lds or non-lds), you believe that you DESERVE to benefit from others and that they should feel grateful and BLESSED to be dealing with such a WORTHY person as you.

(ie. They should pay for it!)

This reads to me like a person with a serious insecurity problem, who is willing to spend top dollar to project an image of success, while not really being able to afford it. Social pressures, which are prevalent in Mormonism, can really screw with the prioritization skills of the less self-assured among us.

This is what I was thinking, too.

We knew a woman a few years ago (not Mormon) who spent LAVISHLY on all sorts of stuff. She had a beautiful home, beautiful clothes, nice new car etc etc.

But then people at her company started to figure out that she was approaching each of them individually and begging and literally crying sometimes for loans of money, which she didn't pay back. She also begged them not to say anything to anyone else or to her husband. She was an administrator and actually begged money off her subordinates, including a very poor aid. They never figured out how much total she got from the staff there, but eventually it got to upper management and she was quietly forced to leave.

I think it sounded like an emotional problem of some sort. A very damaging one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2016 06:56PM by seekyr.

I try to avoid knowingly doing business with mormons because they are so deceptive.

Sometimes it cannot be avoided, such as bleeding in an ER and having a LDS emergency doc.

Every time you do business with a mormon they will attempt to profit by being dishonest and deceptive. Avoid and warn others.

My experience: Mormons are a group of people that are like everyone else, in most respects. Some are great people, others are criminals. Some are honest as the day is long, others lie.
The religion is internalized very differently by the individual.
Some Mormons lie, cheat and steal from other Mormons just like others who do the same thing. Every personality known to mankind can be found in Mormonism. People first. It's the same at church, work, school, sports, etc. Just the faces change.

Generally, I don't need or want to know the religion of the person I am dealing with, in most cases. I prefer that it doesn't matter. It shouldn't anyhow. I want to be treated well by my friends, businesses, the medical profession, in schools, etc.

My experience is that Mormons are as honest and dishonest as anyone else. It's not about the religion it's about the person and their integrity or lack of it.

i would suggest that Mormons as a culture are far more dishonest than average in society.

Mormons are trained that lying, dishonesty, and deception is okay from a bery young age, if under the context of promoting LDS inc, both by adult example, and training in the art of excuse making.

Masturbation interviews teach dishonesty.

Do not do business with these people.

Interesting.

Thomas Payne held the belief that any Mormon who came to the conclusion that the church was not what it claimed to be, but continued to participate and ACT like it was, is capable of any crime imaginable.

"It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime."

Thomas Payne

Sheesh, both of them died over three centuries ago; Joseph Smith was little more than a toddler when the author of "Common Sense" passed away (in 1809), and Thomas Payne was an English "literary sort" who was in the publishing business...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Payne

Sorry Thomas, I have my doubts about your credibility.

2016wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This characteristic of playing poor and their penchant
> for dropping hints about how wealthy they are to
> strangers has me wondering. Any insights?


I don't live in Mormon Town but do see this behavior outside the Church. I will say that as a Mormon we were taught how to guile and swindle people into the Church without a hint of guilt or shame. Mormons are well trained to lie, steal, cheat and beguile for the sake of the Church.

What you describe in your post is a basic human tendency to bolster ones importance which a very few take to the extreme. This goes hand in hand with demeaning others. They will complain about the service, the prices, if the price is worth the value, always being put out by the stupidity of others. Work in retail for a bit, you get to meet them if you like it or not.

Empahtically no. IN fact, I'd say Mormons who cheat seems to prey on other mormons more than non-mormons.

In the early days, the conflicts in Ohio, Illinois and especially Missouri, 1830s-1840s, anything stolen by the saints from the citizens was deemed "consecrated" property and accepted as just and righteous. There are many affidavits to this effect in John C. Bennet's History of the Saints.
Brigham Young is known to have made many statements approving the cheating, robbing, and plundering of gentiles in utah territory, especially in the early years when he wielded absolute power. See Ann Eliza Young's book and John D Lee's confession. There is no doubt that this mentality has trickled down and remains to some extent among the saints of today.

It appears that the limitless claim the "church" places on the members' time has resulted in a general belief that a person's time, be it for repair or renovations, professional services, etc is somehow "free" and everyone else in society needs to get with the program...

I believe Mormon doctrines and practices teach members conduct that affects all their relationships, even those that should be purely business.

First of all, the Church is inherently parasitic: the Church strives to gain resources from members. As a corporation it takes everything it can. Members are routinely pressured for extra donations and free labor. Members follow its example: they expect people to surrender in business dealings and perform service gratis.

The Church doesn't respect personal boundaries. Why should LDS folk?

The Church teaches the principle of agency. People only do what they want (in theory). However, any pressure applied to influence people to surrender their rights is justified. "They wouldn't allow this if they didn't agree (at some level)." Mormons believe that "hard-sell" techniques are moral (normal?) because their Church uses them regularly.

The missionary "Commitment Pattern" encourages deceit: Prepare, Invite, Follow-up, Resolve Concerns. Invitations are given regardless of how appropriate they are to anyone's needs. Anything promised to "resolve concerns" is justified. The Church minimizes commitments when it wants something; but claims the maximum later. (Bait and switch.)

My father-in-law once overheard my conversation with a client. He later told me that I should never admit to a client what I "didn't know." In his mind, I should say whatever is required to win a contract and then let's hope that I can do what the client wants. Nor should I worry about underbidding because I can easily pad costs later. My father-in-law was a very successful businessman. He was also sued often.

My father-in-law was raised in a "good LDS home." When I knew him he hadn't attended an LDS church in at least 40 years. But he had an upbringing where he learned how to conduct himself from Mormonism in his youth.

The Church may be the only place where "qualifications" are completely bogus. Anybody can become a bishop in an afternoon. Why can't Mormons do this in the "real world?" My father-in-law did a significant amount of the land surveys for a major hydro power project in British Columbia. All the surveys had to be repeated because he was *not a civil engineer* as he claimed. He felt vindicated because they discovered that all his surveys were correct. But that wasn't the point...

The LDS Church is a parasitic and abusive organization. People operating in that environment become inculcated with those same practices and desensitized to their effects on others. Many commit fraud without even realizing it.

I was once asked by a member of the high council (30+ years ago now), "Does the college where you work have Lotus 1-2-3?" When I confirmed that they did, he says, "If I give you disks, will you copy it for me."

We had just moved into a new subdivision development in a smallish rural Utah town not too far from SLC,and a young TBM couple lived next door to us in the cul de sac. We asked them about splitting the cost of the new fencing between our houses but they declined. The neighbors next to them on the other side didn't have any luck with getting the young couple to share the cost of their fence, either. Soon after, the young couple approached the woman in the house behind them to discuss sharing the fencing cost at the back of both of their houses. She agreed but when it came time to pay, the young couple said that she would have to wait, as they couldn't afford it right then. The husband was heard in church by another neighbor saying, "If I play my cards right, I'm going to get all my fencing for free!" I was disgusted with such an attitude, and more than a little angry.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 03:24PM by cinda.

In my experience dishonesty is a hallmark of many TBM's. They believe they are Gods chosen people, so cheating people God cares less about (everyone else) is not a problem. Cheating other mormons doesn't bother them much either.

There are many mormon owed companies in Utah selling things like home protection systems, home improvement items etc etc and even other mormons know to stay away from them because they're a scam.

The phrase "bleeding the beast" Chinese to mind when Mormons justify their actions.

You typed this on your phone, didn't you?

My brother in AZ, a nevermo who has worked with many Mormons, always thought so.

Of course Mormon's cheat Gentiles, how the Hell do you think the Church got so wealthy and powerful.

They rob from the Gentiles, put a percentage in their own pocket and consecrate the rest to the Church to build up the kingdom of Zion.

Then on the rare change their caught they face Mormon Judges & Prosecutors and are given lessor sentences than a Gentile committing the same crime.

All anyone has to do is look at former Attorney's General Shurtleff & Swallow. This type of criminal conduct has gone on for a 185 years with the Cult

Thank you all for your insightful comments. I think what I was trying to ascertain is whether Mormons are taught, consciously or sub consciously, that payment due to a non-Mormon was not a priority for a TBM. I questioned this because I had read about early LDS history and Smith's sanctioning of cheating Gentiles. From your comments, I gather that a) Mormons come in all shapes and sizes as to their moral character as with any other group or b) they follow a religion which in some ways employs deceptive practices and thus cheating is somehow sanctioned. I'd rather believe in the former, but am still left with a nagging suspicion about whether a Mormon is going to deal with me honestly. I'll hope for the best, but be prepared/aware of the worst.

Some people are just very cheap, even with their friends -- especially with their friends. I would just insist, if necessary, that the friend pull her weight financially. Hopefully your husband stood his ground when it came to paying the bill.

Interestingly, a friend of mine was struggling financially due to huge medical bills. She would only rarely let me treat her when going out together. I would have been happy to pay her way more often.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2016 06:47PM by summer.

My stepfather was a convert to the church at about age 38.
He was also a private-practice attorney in SoCal for many years.
He and my mother decided to move to "Zion" (SLC). He passed the Utah bar, and opened a new practice there.

Four years later, they moved to Montana, and he couldn't wait to get out. Why?

He had gone to "Zion" with high hopes of living a mormon life amongst the righteous in SLC. Instead, he got a bunch of mormon clients who stiffed him for payment at every opportunity, tried to weasel "brother in the ward" discounts, and who would lie to him (their attorney!) on a regular basis.

He was so disgusted with Utah mormons that he left and never wants to go back. Even this ultra-TBM convert admitted to me that he'd never in his life seen such a pack of lying, cheating scum as he had among the Utah mormons.

True story.

From my book (scene is set on the East coast):

Mature Eastern magnate to young gentile from Utah: "You seem to get along with those Mormons. How do you do it?"
Young gentile: "I have no choice. They outnumber me."

Mature magnate: (laughs) "I travel out there some, working on mining deals. Very tricky, dealing with these Mormons. If you're not one of them, they don't trust you."
Young gentile: "The smart ones don't trust each other."

Seem to remember Mark Twain writing something about how the Mormons charged ridiculous prices for food and supplies to the travelers passing through Salt Lake City.

That said, your story reminds me of some stories my wife has shared from her hair dresser who has a shop on the edge of the richest part of the city here in the Bible Belt (very few Mormons). He tells her about how the wealthiest clients are always trying to get a deal on every service and product he sells. Like "paying retail" is only for the little people, though I don't think they plead financial hardship with him.

They wouldn't be the first people of whatever faith to buy so much that they couldn't afford to maintain it. I hope your dh refused to reduce the price.

TBM church members every too years have to confirm that they are honest with their fellowmen in order to get a temple recommend renewed. If they aren't then they are not living the faith they proclaim.