I was pretty much sacked from being Young Women' President. I did not follow the party line. I taught the girls that while some women chose to marry that it is not the path that everyone takes. I taught that a good education opens doors for us and that many women feel more satisfied if they work outside the home. I taught that they are entitled to make choices they feel are right without consulting with a man. I helped them work on real goals that were important to them and explained to them how enriching it is to travel. I also told them that they need to REALLY know a man before they commit to an eternity with him, that eternity is a long time so waiting a year or two before marriage is a wise choice. apparently though it was talk or delaying parenthood that tipped things over the edge for the bishop and I was fired, oops, released...Anybody got any stories of teaching subversively in church and juicy release stories?

I raised my two daughters the same way. Guess that sacks me as a father. Your bishop hasn't observed LDS millennial kids much- they have no homophobia, are probably less "white and delightsome" and regardless of gender know the value of education, self-esteem from and other benefits of work. Keep up the good work. I would be willing to bet the girls contact you "off the record"
Gatorman

My never mo parents would have been total failures at teaching me to get married ASAP after high school. I never even knew college was optional. That was just what you did, got out of high school went to college.

I'm in my 60's and I am the third generation of women in my family to hold a college degree. My Grandmother, my mother and now me. We all graduated from the same University as well. That takes us back to the class of 1918. Both of my nieces hold Master's degrees so we just keep getting more educated.

My dad would not even let me take typing since "you are too smart to end up as a secretary".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2016 05:57PM by shortbobgirl.

My mother was very TBM but she was adamant that we go to college and we all got degrees. Only one of us married before graduating. That was my brother. I wonder how Mom would feel about the 'hurry up and get married and have kids' nonsense being pushed today?

^^ Love this^^

Bravo! Those were lessons that those young women needed. When I was in the beginning stages of my teaching career, an experienced teacher told me that good teaching often has a subversive quality. As a teacher it has not been unusual for me to think, "I am going to teach this MY way because if they wanted it taught some other way they would have hired somebody else." I love teaching kids about things that I think are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2016 06:06PM by summer.

OP, how did you hide your horns and cloven hooves from the ward leadership?

your experience proves one very important fact, many bishops are not really concerned about the welfare of their "flock", they are more like rep's for the church. They serve as the church's representative in their ward. Not their ward members rep. to the church

Toe the party line, or get out.

You vixen you. CONGRATS!

Nevermo here but.... KUDOS to you!!

Much as I would love to accept the praise, but this was a fair few years ago - about 7 or 8 not recently. Been out about three years by now

You would like to think that it was all of those silly ideas that filled your pretty little head, but the real reason that you were released was that all of the YM were lusting after you. You were such a tease with all of that "girls should go to college" nonsense. Who could resist.

the truth is out...

And this reminds me of the time I was teaching RS and got on my knees to beg the women to go to the temple and even uttered the words: a college degree isn't as important as going to the temple.

I cringe.

Somewhere, someone may be talking about having this crazy RS teacher who once got down on her knees and begged the women to forsake their education for going to the temple.

HA! No doubt.

Do you happen to live in Mesa, AZ?

I grew up in the 2nd stake of Zion and so of course it was very hard core and traditional. My younger sister mentioned to me the other day about her experience as a young women in the 90's. Every lesson was about temple marriage and how to make a man happy (mormon style). They were always learning about crafts and sewing. Some of the girls were making their own wedding dresses at 14. They began collecting stuff for their hope chests, like doilies and towls, just like it was 1899 all over again. There was nothing about career development, ACT studying, careers that pay (STEM), those that don't (Liberal Arts), student loan debt, how to invest for the future. The attitude was girls don't have to be smart, they just needed to hook an RM.

At girls camp the the lesson was on the reintroduction of polygamy and how the girls needed to be ready for their eventual sister wives "in these the later days" etc.

I'm surprised that this occured in the day of Correlation.Is girls' camp outside Correlation, and could this have been a kind of rogue teacher? I assume that was a female teacher, or do they have priesthood holders come out for the spiritual lessons?

Correlation was supposed to displace speculative folk-Mormonism with a greater orthodox consistency. Are you, or other posters, aware of widespread "return to polygamy" beliefs? This strikes me as one of those "deep doctrine" things that is withheld from the public and new converts. I'm just wondering if it's held widely, and if it has any authorization from COB.

Ya in deep in Utah where the curtain is really really strong polygamy is still taught. Those counties include Utah, Weber, Morgan, Tooele, and Box Elder, anything past there and it gets more liberal. That's one of the purposes of girls camp is to reintroduce the doctrines and get at the meat. "Celestial" marriage for girls and missions/Godhood for the boys.

My sister said that after a long hard day of hiking, the stake president got up and gave the sermon about the last days and what to expect.

I also grew up in a ward where we had "private" interviews at least monthly and the topic was "chastity". But in hind sight, realizing what floozies the kids I grew up turned out to be, maybe that was a good thing?

WOW! I'd like to hear more about that.

All I wanted was to be married and have kids. When my mother had my little brothers and sister, I was so excited. Even at age 4, I helped with my little sister. I was so looking forward to having babies until I had twins. I've said this before on this site, I was miserable. I didn't get married until I was 27 and 28 when I had the twins. My ex used to tell me he made all my dreams come true and I told him I was dreaming the wrong dreams. Being a wife and mother was nothing like I anticipated.

I had to go out and get a job and I did go to some college. All I ever wanted to be, though, was a secretary. I loved it and I mean LOVED it. I worked for 20+ chemists and scientists (many Ph.D.s). I made more money than any of the school teachers I lived with from the singles ward. The bishop told me not to tell the guys in the ward how much I earned as they would be intimidated and now I've done medical transcription for 30 years and make great money while at home, which made it possible for me to be home while being a single mother.

I found what suited me. And that is part of the journey, part of what other women miss out on. Both my sisters work. My mother and my ex-mother-in-law would have been much happier working. They both worked some times.

There should be options. There are many women who like being a SAHM and I have a lot of respect for them as I about lost my mind those first few years after I had kids.

When I was in YW, they thought I did too many fun activities. I got so weary of the nitpicking that I asked to be released.

I got fired from teaching in RS. I didn't make the lesson on sexual assault spiritual enough. The queen bee came uncorked when I told the women that just because their kids are staying at a members house, doesn't mean they are perfectly safe. I then told them the story of what happened to an 11 year old girl that was at a YW sleepover at the bishops house.

Mormons can't stand the truth being told about things like that.

reminds me of a homophobic SS lesson I attended. I tried to point out the difference between gender and sexuality. I felt like I was the only sane adult in the class, the genuinely did not get it...

Before we finally stopping going to church our youngest daughter was asked about her goals in life etc., in a young women's class. The obvious answer they wanted and most kids gave was - I want to be a wife and mother -

However, my wonderful kid said "I want to get an education and I'm not sure if I ever want to get married and have kids."

The YW teacher then told my wife about this in the hall later after class as if my wife should be worried. My wife told her - well, I'm a lawyer so we believe in education and I have taught her she can do whatever she wants. Besides these kids are only 14 years old and no idea of what they really want to do in life. You guys should lighten-up and leave them alone.

This answer did not go over well, and a couple of days later the teacher called my daughter and invited her to ice cream after to school to talk. My daughter did not want to go off with this creepy lady she did really know (we don't really know her either), so I called creepy lady and told her we don't allow our kids to go hangout with adults and butt out.

This kind of brainwashing crap is rampant in LDS world. However, I gotta say it's this type of stuff mixed with CES letter stuff than helped convince my wife LDS Inc is a cult. So, in a way I owe creppy lady a thank you for helping convince my wife its all a made up cult.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2016 01:57PM by perky.

Oh Yes!! That will get your butt impeached and kicked right out of office. ON THE OTHER HAND Hurrah for you telling it as it is.

One of the packages on my shelf was an experience I had in RS back, way back, in the day. The lesson was focusing on literature and it was tweaked so dastardly that I said something. Needless to say I was given enough looks to kill that I should have kicked the bucket. My dislike of RS had been way up there so this incident did the trick, and RS became one of the additions on my not-to-do-list.

Good for you! You did a big No-No and deviated from the doctrine! So, you're out - gone, no longer useful!

I was a convert and never could buy into the idea that women were to follow the man, etc. etc. etc. I inwardly objected to the temple rituals also. The kids were raised in the LDS Church but they figured out that not everything was workable or acceptable.

Your teachings were exactly why my daughters could not accept the party line within the teachings. And they didn't. They figured it out at an early age that it was not realistic for all women to follow the same general path.
One stuck with the LDS Church and was married in the temple. The other one did not. They are both non members now and living their lives as they choose!

I found that many times, men in leadership positions went "off" on their "authority" and tried to diminish and control women just because they could. Terrible!

Bless you. From the bottom of my heart. I bet there were at least a couple girls in your classes who will not forget what you taught them.

My dad stepped away from the party line when I was about 22 or so. I was dating some boy and very into him and was telling dad about him, all starry-eyed about it. Dad advised me to just keep on dating him and to not even consider marrying until I was at least 25. "You just don't really know who you are and what you want yet, so don't settle down until you do."

Best advice he ever gave me.

My family is pretty traditional, but I have relatives of relatives of relatives who for a few generations have been non-traditional while being considered devout LDS. The grandparents of a set of cousins ranging around my age (twenties to mid-thirties) had three daughters.In the three families of these sets of cousins, only one set of the four separate sets of grandparents of these cousins, all LDS, (the same maternal g'parents but three different paternal sets), only one set of grandparents had more than three children. The one set of grandparents that had more than three kids had just four, and this was in the 1950's and 1960's when much larger LDS families were common. Not one of the cousins my age has more than two siblings, and not one has more than three kids.

Some of the young adult generation of this family married in very early twenties, but none had kids until being through school, or if they're still in school, they don't have children. None has more than three kids and all say they're stopping at three.

Yet all of these people have high callings, from bishops in their late twenties to stake presidents in their thirties and forties to mission presidents and area seventies in their late forties and early fifties. No one seems to hassle these people about postponing their families and restricting their family size, and it doesn't seem to interfere with their upward mobility in the church in the least. Oh, I should have mentioned that the parents of each of the cousins is extremely wealthy, as in they and their offspring could live for the rest of their lives on what they already have without earning another cent. The same is true, as far as I know, of the families into whom each of the cousins married. The amount of tithing paid by these people must be astronomical.

I'm all for postponing babies until couples can afford them. I'm just curious that this extended family gets a pass on "rules" (not commandments but what rank and file members ARE expected to follow nonetheless). Could it be because of the tithing they pay?

I'm also curious as to how these people find each other in LDS circles and marry into like families. Is there a secret second-anointing club at BYU for second-and third-generation descendants of people who have had their callings and elections made sure, or maybe a special lapel pin they all wear and recognize in others, so that young people of similar wealth and breeding can find each other? We all know that money seems to be a common denominator in second anointings.

These people are so consistently wealthy straight across the board that it's surprising that they could be even as close as cousins of cousins of cousins to me. my parents are very comfortable, but I seriously doubt that their total wealth reaches ten digits.

In all of these families the women work to some degree and have house help. Their daughter have been raised to be independent as well. Perhaps the church lets these people hold high callings just because of the amount of tithing paid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2016 01:50AM by scmd.

"Opposites attract" may work for novels and movies (conflict being necessary for effective drama), but in real life, it's "birds of a feather."

Dull people tend to marry dull people. Not only are they used to that, but more dynamic people realize marrying down, intelligence-wise, is a formula for unhappiness. Intelligent people tend to marry intelligent people.

And beautiful people marry beautiful people. And rich people tend to do the same, all of which overlap. Visit an exclusive yacht or country club and you'll see. SCMD, you're talking about rich, and probably, beautiful people. They may date outside their caste, and have affairs also, but marry? Only with their type. As children and adolescents, they come from similar communities and schools, wards, summer camps, country clubs, and learn to identify and associate with each other. They emit and smell out a kind of socio-economic pheromone. Good ones recognize the nouveau riche as being not-quite-suitable.

Intensifying this is the disparity between convert status and the BIC's, and then there's the issue of pioneer forebears. How many threads have we had where people discuss (and bemoan) the special privileges, "access," prestige callings, and opportunities of "Mormon royalty?" And the special dispensations they get.

I know there are exceptions!! I'm talking about general demographics.

This is an unfortunate reality, and happens everywhere. It is not unique to LDS culture. But I think it is especially intense in an insular society like LDS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2016 11:06AM by caffiend.

>
> And beautiful people marry beautiful people. And
> rich people tend to do the same, all of which
> overlap. Visit an exclusive yacht or country club
> and you'll see. SCMD, you're talking about rich,
> and probably, beautiful people. They may date
> outside their caste, and have affairs also, but
> marry? Only with their type. As children and
> adolescents, they come from similar communities
> and schools, wards, summer camps, country clubs,
> and learn to identify and associate with each
> other. They emit and smell out a kind of
> socio-economic pheromone. Good ones recognize the
> nouveau riche as being not-quite-suitable.

Caffiend, I suspect you're onto something with the "socioeconomic pheromone" theory.and if the younger generation's pheromone-detectors are not sufficiently fine-tuned, the parents clue them in, and for some reason unbeknownst to me, the offspring listen. One guy who married into this clan (who is himself from a very similar social situation) dated my sister fairly seriously for about six months, which is almost an eternity for a returned missionary to date any girl without proposing at BYU. They spoke of marriage, then he took her to meet his parents. Two days after my sister and the guy returned from his parents' home to BYU, he broke up with her. Coincidence? I seriously doubt it. The particular sister of mine is the sweetest, kindest, smartest (she's an engineer but actually has social skills), and most beautiful woman I know other than my wife, but she doesn't come from old money, nor does she come from enough of it..

My dad was a college engineering professor who made a lot more money on the side by patenting optical instruments he developed in cooperation with his ophthalmologist brother. Each of us six (adult) kids will inherit close to two million from my parents, but it was not enough money to propel my sister into her old boyfriend's social set, nor was it old money since my dad earned every dollar himself.

The caste system is alive and well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2016 03:12AM by scmd.

Although we may not be able to put a date or event to fix it, Conformity has long been the first priority of Mormonism, it covers tithing, talks in church & GC and lessons/lesson manuals.

I don't understand how mature adults can close their eyes/minds to the persistent, all-reaching focus on it, and the blatant, utter ignoring of Basic, Core values of Christ-like living.

And it's relevant to all religious groups, not just LDS.

Power, prestige, and wealth tend to be in conflict with most spiritual systems. (1st World exceptions are often "prosperity gospels.") It's common for us to admire those people who have them, be they Romneys, Kennedys, Warren Buffett or Bill Gates.

You may or may not be Christian, GNPE, but you recognize and appreciate the "core values of Christ-like living." Many religious systems experience decay in this matter.

The proper answer is reform and revival--returning to the "core values," which even the affluent can do. Christ has much to say on the matter. TSCC's failing is that Philistinistic legalism is substituted for Christ-like living, and among these (getting back to the original thread, here!) is an over-valuation of women's domestic responsibilities.

As a Christian, I am bothered that women get short-shrift in the Bible. But partisans on both the left and the right overlook those sterling examples of effective women "in the market place," such as the O.T. "Proverbs 31 woman" or Lydia in the N.T.--savy, competent, successful women who successfully navigated the real world. (Kind of like the female cousins the OP described.)

Seems to echo another interesting phenomena I have observed over years in the church
Poor=Unworthy

Gatorman