Projection. Always projection.

Hey Holland! Just because you're in the dark and can't see, doesn't mean that the rest of us are.

Good point. He is sitting in Plato's cave and just can't understand why those who left the cave and see the light of freedom can be happy in the real world.

It was a slip of the tongue. He meant "apostles," not "apostates."

Well, he's right. Mormonism is under threat. It is under threat from kindness, tolerance, truth, decency, and common sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2016 07:28PM by summer.

+1 good one, summer! :D

Well said!

were as a missionary for the Church above the arctic circle.

Leaving the church is like getting to breath after being held under cold water for years and years. I think the bretheren are in panic mode.

Then how come I have to run my air conditioner, hmmm?
And wear sunglasses?

I think he's spent too much time in Utah -- so that's what he considers "hell", polar night of icy darkness. Poor deluded old white guy.

Some of the comments were interesting.

Holland is a douche bag who gets paid for lying. End of story.

There is no morality in religion. Controlling peoples lives by lies, fear and tales of a pissed off sky daddy that is coming to punish you is not morality. It's mind control, not to mention wallet control.

He may have a valid point. It's kind of cold out here compared to the warmth of Jeffrey's bung hole.

The sun is shining and it's hot. Fuck Holland.

I have been in the Arctic in Polar darkness and bitter cold. 3 years to be exact. Beatiful peace and quiet. Where I truly found what was good for the soul and ones perspective. It did not include mormonism . You have time to think, you realize how fragile life is. You realize you do have choices and learn to choose wisely and in your best interest. Not to mention the sheer bueaty of the northern lights and reflection of light off the snow and ice. Tranquility at its best. The dodo does not have a clue.

VERY much appreciate the posting of this link. Thanks.

I have TBM family members who dutifully attend BYU Education Week and count this as their main source of education for the year (at least this is the impression I have).

I tried to read the entirety of Holland's speech but it is not posted yet on the LDS site. The Herald Newspaper write up cited two quotes that stood out to me.

The first of the two quotes said, "...Holland said there aren't examples of societies maintaining moral life without religion." So Dodo, the wonderful U S of A does not count??? We are the first society to adopt the policy of separation of church and state and hey, we've made it since, hmmm, 1776!!! And, what's more Dallin, I say it is precisely because we have this policy that we are a living example of what a democracy with this policy can accomplish!

The second quote that I am very excited my TBM family members were able to hear was, again quoting the Herald, "He also directly mentioned and broadly critiqued atheists such as Richard Dawkins Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Richard Hitchins."

Very thrilled this was the case as this was most likely the first time my family members have heard these names and one never knows but that Holland could have planted a seed which might cause curiosity for further enlightenment on these individuals by family members. Or, if that is really stretching things, at the very least, it might present me a lead in to bring these names up in a discussion with them. You know like, "What did you think of Holland's statements....yada, yada. Yeah, I am a dreamer.

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have TBM family members who dutifully attend BYU
> Education Week and count this as their main source
> of education for the year (at least this is the
> impression I have).

I'm sorry to say, my very TBM brother *teaches* at education week every year. And the lessons...ugh. :(

That is one of the lamest lines I've heard yet, spoken by an apostel of Joey's.

Polar night of icy darkness, my eye.

He is the one with an iceberg up his.

Holland actually borrowed (uh plagiarized?) this term from Max Weber, who spoke of the Iron Cage using this idiom

"In sociology, the iron cage is a term coined by Max Weber for the increased rationalization inherent in social life, particularly in Western capitalist societies. The "iron cage" thus traps individuals in systems based purely on teleological efficiency, rational calculation and control. Weber also described the bureaucratization of social order as "the polar night of icy darkness".[1] (Wikipedia)

Not too original either Holland, and your point sorely lacks the same finesse as Weber's did. As for who's bureaucratizing the social order and does so well at it, who else but Mormonism is guilty of that next to Marxism?

Nice catch!

And just in time for summer!

Having never visited either pole, I cannot speak first hand. But don't the polar nights have beautiful northern lights called the Aurora Borealis? Actually, to me, polar nights sound quite lovely and inspiring. I guess beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. Trust Holland to see "icy darkness" in apostasy where I see refreshing truth and light.

'The Polar Night of Icy Darkness'

The depressing sequel to 'The Polar Express' where not-quite-cartoon-yet-not-quite-real elves pummel Santa to death with wooden toys in a drunken orgy of violence and rejection of state-controlled production quotas.

They are so scared of losing the privilege they have to discriminate. Religion is not under attack. Discriminatory, unethical, unlawful practices of some religions are what is under attack.

There is absolutely zero threat to their ability to gather, teach their theology, proselytize, brainwash, or anything else. But they want to be able to break the law (e.g., discriminate in their public businesses against people they are prejudiced toward) under the guise of "protecting religion."

Yet when the NCAA or other groups want to exclude mormons, it's a whole different ball game. "We claim the privilege of discriminating in the name of almighty gawd according to the dictates of our own non-conscience, but do not allow all groups the same privilege."

Societies cannot maintain morality without religion?

Socieites cannot maintain morality with religion either--cf JS's abuses of his own followers; SP and BP's preying on their congregations by investment scams; mandatory tithing, even of the poor.

Also, it was hilarious that Holland cited two novels to show how religion influences culture: The Scarlett Letter and Moby Dick?!

Has he ever read these books?

The Scarlett Letter is about man's religious hypocracy--and the society that encourages and shields it--and how the innocent are made to suffer for it. The nice twist here was how the victims were the only ones in the book who demonstrated true character, despite their vilification by the religious. The book indicted religion and demonstrated that morality was a matter of the heart, not the form. A counterpoint to Holland's entire life, not less the message of his speech.

Moby Dick is about the destructive power of obsessive religious ego as it forces a showdown with nature, the unifying non-ego, which is utterly impartial and cannot lose. The moth and the flame.

These books are warnings about the danger of religion, that is, religion can be turned into a potent tool of human weakness.

I suppose you could say these books wouldn't exist without religion. Without religion's excesses, there wouldn't be a need for a literature to warn against them.

What if we ex-Mormons take this personally.

This idiot is falsely judging our lives, based on lies. Is this not slander? Does Holland have any power of sooth-saying and mind-reading--oh, I forgot--he has the power of the holy priesthood. It is only a fake power that arrogant Mormon wealthy white male leaders bestow on each other, through private cult rituals.

No one has the insight to tell us whether or not we are happy, except God Almighty (if you believe in him.)

Any man who says nasty things about me and casts false judgments on me and shuns me is my ENEMY. Really, this Holland person has never had a real, intelligent conversation with me, or any of us, nor has he asked us the real reasons why we left the cult. (We know Holland by his words and professed beliefs) Yet, not knowing us at all, Holland and the Mormon cult sweep us into one group with the label "apostate." Some of us are devout Christians, some of us are gay, dark-skinned, parents, children of gays, handicapped, old, young, but here we are all together in the polar night of icy darkness. Really, Holland is an arrogant, phony bigot, and a blatant liar.

No one is going to separate me from my children and relegate me to a made-up, "terrestial kingdom", either. How do Mormons get away with convincing people they are loving, Christian, charitable, and family-oriented--when they are nasty and hateful to the core.

I see they found a way to his heart.

Elder Holland is welcome to come in from the cold at any time and join the ranks of honest apostates who don't need to wall themselves off in a private Idaho.

He's got that backwards. We're not the ones in the dark.

We're happy as clams.

Well, Mr. Holland, thank you for that fine oration. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'm going to go read some passages from that fine religious text, Moby Dick, and then exercise my traditional Christian morals by shooting some godless foreigners and then gay-bashing some fags before I pledge my allegiance, property, and life to a cult in monthly re-enactment in a building constructed on the backs of the poor I say I'm helping. Bye!

Yes we are all, so,so miserable out here in the cold, cold world. How could we ever survive without someone to tell us what to think, what to watch on TV, which movies to watch, books to read and most of all what to look at on the internet. Of course who could leave out the idea that true happiness consists of having someone tell us what to eat and drink, as well as what kind of underwear is acceptable. Thanks Jeffy for telling me how miserable I am, I think I'll drown my sorrows in a wonderful glass of Cabernet Sauvignon.

I saw Polar Night of Icy Darkness at Winterland Ballroom in San Francisco in '76. They opened for New Riders of the Purple Sage, then the Dead came on and everybody jammed until the wee small hours...

Holland's address is available now on the Mormon site. He was misquoted in the Herald concerning his use of "polar night of icy darkness"; he does give credit for its source in his speech.

In reading his address, I was once again struck by the arrogance of Holland's claim that religion owns morality and is the only source for keeping man on the right and narrow path. The evidence he gives does not stand up to facts in my opinion, but he could care less because, you know, in his eyes he is an apostle who can speak no lies and to hell with the facts and truth.

I believe he knows that those who are doing critical thinking and speaking out (humanists, apostates, skeptics, atheists, etc) are on to the truth and all he has available to do is to malign them and paint them in Satan's camp as people who have turned away from the only morality keeper there is in the world which is religion. He knows they are doomed and going straight to Hell.

Jeffrey, dig out those books you are quoting and give them a read with an open and critical thinking mind rather than starting out with your already knowing THE answer. You could even learn something.

"Polar night of icy darkness" Hahahahaha! I just think it's hilarious! Talk about high drama!

"Only in the living of our religion will the preservation of it have true meaning,” Holland said."

Translated:

"Remaining TBM only makes sense to TBMs."


So the one thing he got right was when he stuck to a subject he knew.

It sure doesn't look that way, sitting in the sun in my yard, smoking a Cuban and sipping an ice-cold Erdinger Weiss...

Fucking moron. People don't need religion to be good. This is what happens to a person who buries their jowls in the sand for years upon years. Damn cry baby liar.

Clearly, Holland is really saying that we aren't of the devil or Satan. I've always understood that hell is very hot and has a lot of light because of the continuously burning fires. Since the opposite is to be cold, surely Holland is saying that we. the alleged apostates, are the closest to God.

Holland. Flat, no discernible high points, often subject to flooding.

I have no idea how us exemormon women are going to survive without trying to live our lives like some 80 year old man tells us to.

I'm not going to listen to that, but I imagine he probably does get an icy reception from people who are disgusted by his church's general lack of concern for the hurt they cause and their subsequent denials.

I took the liberty of forwarding his remarks to Richard Dawkins Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett. I have heard back from one of them who was pleased to know that he is being heard!

The LDS worldview is so negative. When I stopped attending in 1993 I found this vibrant, rich and diverse world and built great friendships. In 2014 when I joined the Episcopal faith I came into a faith community that is uplifting and positive. I must admit, I was surprised at how little I actually knew about Christianity because the LDS faith has so corrupted it through proof-texting and "revelation." There is nothing icy or dark about my new world outside the LDS faith.

It is interesting that the LDS leaders send their unprepared young people into the world to preach, but they themselves will not leave the safety of speaking at their university.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2016 07:53PM by unabashed.

And here is what Sam Harris has written about Mormonism:

Consider Mormonism: Many of my fellow liberals would consider it morally indecent to count Romney’s faith against him. In their view, Mormonism must be just like every other religion. The truth, however, is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than its fair share of quirks. For instance, its doctrine was explicitly racist until 1978, at which point God apparently changed his mind about black people (a few years after Archie Bunker did) and recommended that they be granted the full range of sacraments and religious responsibilities. By this time, Romney had been an adult and an exceptionally energetic member of his church for more than a decade.

Unlike the founders of most religions, about whom very little is known, Mormonism is the product of the plagiarisms and confabulations of an obvious con man, Joseph Smith, whose adventures among the credulous were consummated (in every sense) in the full, unsentimental glare of history. Given how much we know about Smith, it is harder to be a Mormon than it is to be a Christian. A firmer embrace of the preposterous is required—and the fact that Romney can manage it says something about him, just as it would if he were a Scientologist proposing to park his E-meter in the Oval Office. The spectrum between rational belief and self-serving delusion has some obvious increments: It is one thing to believe that Jesus existed and was probably a remarkable human being. It is another to accept, as most Christians do, that he was physically resurrected and will return to earth to judge the living and the dead. It is yet another leap of faith too far to imagine, as all good Mormons must, that he will work his cosmic magic from the hallowed ground of Jackson County, Missouri.

That final, provincial detail matters. It makes Mormonism objectively less plausible than run-of-the-mill Christianity—as does the related claim that Jesus visited the “Nephites” in America at some point after his resurrection. The moment one adds seer stones, sacred underpants, the planet Kolob, and a secret handshake required to win admittance into the highest heaven, Mormonism stands revealed for what it is: the religious equivalent of rhythmic gymnastics.

Holland is actually right. There is a "polar night of icy darkness" when a member wakes up and realizes that they have been duped. Many new apostates post on this board about feelings of emptiness and a dark feeling of purposelessness as they try to find the atrophied remains of the personality they would have become had Mormonism not stunted their development (or hijacked their personality in the case of converts).

Let me be specific about what I mean-- it takes time to undo the damage the church has done when it told you and me to stop wasting time thinking and let the Brethren do that--it's their job, ours is to pay and obey.

You want answers? Well, when your salvation is assured, you'll get your answers in the afterlife, so just focus on becoming the obedient member you know you should be.

When a person does the deferred personal work of individuation, there is joy. Discovering who you are without the Plan of Salvation is the most important work of this life. It isn't just a Treasure Hunt for the Gospel, it is Your Turn on Earth to experience fully every stage of life.

Apostates get answers instead of waiting for things to be magically worked out during the Millenium. We get to think, we get to act on what we think and create our own environment. We get to spend our time and money on our families, which easies marital tensions and Strengthens The Family in ways you can't even imagine.

Apostates make mistakes, but they are our own errors, not the result of blind obedience to a 19th century self-proclaimed King.

I have never been happier since I stopped trying to please God and started living according to the moral code that I always had as my conscience. My children are all atheists, too, having chose that path before I did.

They feed the homeless, volunteer for the community and act compassionately toward others. Who knew?


Well, now you do.


Kathleen

From the article:

Religion is under attack, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland asserted
during an address Tuesday morning at Brigham Young University.

“If that is true — and we surely we feel it is . . . "

Hey, he FEELS that it's true. So it MUST be true! Mormonism at work.

By the way, the number one organization that attacks religions
is Mormonism. I grew up hearing attack after attack of
Catholicism and Protestantism. It's even in the Mormon
scriptures that:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were
ALL WRONG; and the Personage who addressed me said that all
their CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION in his sight; that those
professors were ALL CORRUPT; that: 'they draw near to me with
their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for
doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness,
but they deny the power thereof.'" (emphasis added)

Christopher Hitchens couldn't have said it with more invective.

Awwwwwww, poor religious freaks. Religion and superstition have dominated and controlled humans for thousands of years. Now that we have the ability, empirically to prove these silly notions wrong..suddenly Religion is "Under Attack"! Oh the irony!

This is just a scare tactic from religious hustlers who now stand in jeapordy of losing their livelyhood to rational thought and the downplaying of their superstitious nonsense they can no longer defend, except by scare tactics.

Holland is lucky, he's nearly dead and will never see the day when his brand of superstition will become extinct.