family and friends that the BOM or BOA were fiction it would make difference in how they felt about the Church.

After several years of trying, I've realized that they don't care whether the events in those books are real or not.

They don't connect the truthfulness of the church with the histricity of these books.

The best responses I can pull are that the bible has fictional parts too.

It seems a lost cause.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.
They're not in the church because it's logical and reasonable and rational to be in it.
They're in it for the feelings, and because the church does all their thinking for them.

So many of us, on finding our way out, expect all the existing members to follow us out once we let them know the facts. It's often shocking (it was to me) to find they don't care about the facts. They don't want to dig into evidence. They don't want to think. They just want the little comfy mormon non-thinking bubble, and don't care if it's actually true or not.

Don't be too discouraged, though -- sometimes that can change. It did for lots of us here :)

"They're not in the church because it's logical and reasonable and rational to be in it.
They're in it for the feelings, and because the church does all their thinking for them."

That was me years ago. I really didn't think there was another way to be. Only that one true way. It's easy to forget how strong the indoctrination is. And its corollary, how bad-ass we are for breaking out of it.

can't fix stupid....

"The best responses I can pull are that the bible has fictional parts too."

You forgot their trump card: I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true! [cue: tears]

Regarding their comparisons to the bible, that always makes me laugh: Really? That's the best you got? I have the same skepticism with the bible that I do with BoM.

Yes, I jumped on that one too. Thought all I had to do was share with my TBMs the facts I had found and they would climb enthusiastically on board.

Yeah, right! What mattered to them was that their neat world of feelings and friends not be disturbed. I was stunned. I really was. How in the hell could they not see what was spelled out so clearly in front of them. And, it hurt. I sooo wanted them to see the lies, the half-lies, and all the deceptions surrounding Mormonism that I could see.

What I finally came to terms with is that they are indoctrinated in a cult, and this indoctrination is powerful and strong. I also came to realize that some are more indoctrinated than others depending on their background and personality.

Will they ever see the light? I can only hope, plus remember that lots of others have arrived to this point. I won't give in by not calling out Mormonism for what I believe it to be, a cult, when the conversation calls for it, but I have backed off from fighting a battle of their souls as I did at the beginning of my "enlightenment".

The whole basis for belief in the LDS church is that THESE ACTUALLY HAPPENED! At least that's the way I remember it in '70's.

Obviously, this has changed since Al Gore invented the internet.

then the mormon church is just a group of people pretending to be a church.

I once described Mormons as an extremely large book club with an extremely limited reading list.

I guess the question that I have is why are you trying to convince people to leave Mormonism?

Mormons have this evangelical need to increase their numbers no matter how intrusive they are. As a general rule, they fail, because most people aren't interested.

Also, the basic message of proselytizing of any sort is: You are wrong, I am right and you need to listen to me.

I think that most people leave Mormonism, like leaving an abusive spouse, when they are ready. Something comes up that gets them to thinking, or pisses them off or conflicts with something else, etc.

Being openly ex-Mormon is enough. If they have questions, they will come to you. But going to them with an agenda to make them change will probably be received as insulting and disrespectful. This despite the fact that the Mormon Church is entirely based on being insulting and disrespectful of those who don't share their beliefs.

NeverMoJohn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess the question that I have is why are you
> trying to convince people to leave Mormonism?

Because mormonism causes demonstrable harm -- emotional, physical, intellectual, financial -- to people. Some of those people are family and friends I care about. Most aren't, but I still care about the harm being done to them.

> Being openly ex-Mormon is enough. If they have
> questions, they will come to you.

Sadly, no -- often they won't. Because they've been indoctrinated to feel that doing so is "evil." And that ex-mormons are the devil's handmaidens.

> But going to
> them with an agenda to make them change will
> probably be received as insulting and
> disrespectful.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. No harm in trying, though, because sometimes it works. And even if it doesn't work right away, it often plants "seeds of doubt" that sometimes bear fruit. Yeah, I know -- that sounds like mormons proselytizing, and I don't mean we do the same thing they do. I know that not bringing up the issues, though, won't accomplish anything.

Unfortunately, I know too many Mormons who just tell themselves that if the church isn't true it doesn't matter. It's still a good influence for their kids and a good way to live. So they just wave off any inclination to investigate or question. They really do want to bury their heads in the sand. I suspect that this is where the majority of the Top Dogs reside. They are way too invested in tscc being true that they just shut down any dialogue to the contrary.

But then it's always possible you will find a friend or family member who has a truly questioning mind and a love of truth. Don't give up. They're out there.

It IS a good way to live. The BEST way to live. People want what Mormons have. How many times have you been out with a non-member friend and they say, as they glance down at your shirt, "You know...I wish my undershirts had nipple marks like yours do."? All the time, right? How many times have your non-Mormon friends asked you to sell them your tokens and signs? Too many to count?

Ain't that the truth!

When I was younger, I was approached by the CEO of GE. He offered me a promotion to the VP level if I would show him the secret handshakes to enter Mormon heaven. Alas, I had to turn him down not because I was honoring the church, but because I was always asleep in the temple. [not a true story, but very useful]

"I know too many Mormons who just tell themselves that if the church isn't true it doesn't matter. It's still a good influence for their kids"

I actually heard this testified in the last FT meeting I went to. The church is true, but even if it's not, it's a great way to live and raise children.

The bishop and dh looked at me hopefully.

Didn't work.

You cannot deal rationally with an irrational person. It will not happen.