I posted this within another thread, but wondered if you folks have another take on this thought:


One of the most insidious things about the doctrines of the church is that this life doesn't matter. It's the next life that they seem to care most about. So if you've got a great husband, that's not good enough. Got great kids? Doesn't matter. Wonderful parents? Not if they're not LDS. They'll burn down the house, cut off their family and live a lie alone if that's what it takes to have a shot at the Celestial Kingdom which will make it all worth it. They actually feel a sense of goodness in their sacrifices. Too bad about the collateral damage.

I take it up a notch...

I don't know how many TBM-acting people actually picture themselves making it to the celestial kingdom, but I know that there has to be a very large number of TBM-acting people who think they need to make it look like they intend to make it.

I think these are the ones who give the whole caste such a bad name with those of us who believe their efforts are in vain, that the church has no knowledge or power to effect such a result.

I know that when I was TBM, I never expected to be a candidate for the CK. Hell, I didn't even want to be there. It sounded awful. I pictured myself in one of the lower kingdoms thinking I'd be more comfortable and among people I liked better.

I hear ya... I would masturbate (joyfully) and then mourn the slap in the face I'd just given Jesus, and then tell myself that I wouldn't do it again, that I would repent and make Jesus smile again. But I wouldn't.

So I gave up, and planned on by the best mormon-masturbator I could be and maybe my forthrightness would allow Jesus to at least respect me in some small measure.

Weird shit, trying not to be a Natural Man ... it's just not Natural!

My wife and I don't argue often, but when we do it's usually about me not converting to Mormonism. It was amazing how often "divorce" would pop up in the conversation, and it wasn't me saying it.

Fortunately, we don't argue or even talk about it much anymore. But when we did, she took it as a personal affront and absolute rejection of her that I "didn't want to be with her for eternity." I have repeatedly told her that nobody, neither her nor I, can honestly say what happens after we die; but that all she needs to know is that I love her in the here and now, and that all I ask of her is the same in return.

What was her response? Does she think she's settling?

Well, it wasn't until I called her on playing the divorce card that she realized what an impact it was having on me.

So, one of the first things that she did was to be more careful about what she said and how she phrased things.

Second, after we would calm down and had a chance to reflect on what each of us had said, she acknowledges that I do love her and have treated her with more respect and compassion than her first husband, who is a returned missionary.

Third, she is starting to rethink everything she's been told by the church, and is even asking me for my sources about the church so that she can study it on her own.

She's at the point right now where she can't believe I could love somebody who has been so thoroughly duped into believing something made up by a con man. She still wants to believe the church is true, but I can tell it is becoming more difficult for her to deny the evidence against Joseph Smith and the church. I'm doing my best to convince her that I do love her and that she should give herself a break.

That describes my dad quite well. He was nice and all, but you could tell he really wasn't in it for this life. It was all about the promises made by the church, the sacrifice required, and the crowning glory of it all.

I think one of the other horrible things the church teaches is that you can't figure this stuff out for yourself and be happy. You need them to tell you who and what is bad, and what to do about it....you can find love, happiness, morals, etc. without them telling you what to do every step of the way.

Jeez....I was 6 years old and I knew I didn't like what I was being taught at church. I just wanted to be left alone so I could figure life out for myself. I didn't want to be bad or anything....just free.

I think I've done quite well in life with my own plan and effort. And I assume I'll get a just reward....even if that's just a quick and timely death when I go and nothing more.

"I think one of the other horrible things the church teaches is that you can't figure this stuff out for yourself and be happy. You need them to tell you who and what is bad, and what to do about it....you can find love, happiness, morals, etc. without them telling you what to do every step of the way."

This is one of the major things I'm trying to help my wife understand. It drives me crazy when she insists that I wouldn't like her if she didn't have the church to "keep her in line." I am heartened when she asks me, and genuinely whats to know, how I manage to be the man she loves without religion and a belief in God.

surprenant Wrote:
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> This is one of the major things I'm trying to help
> my wife understand. It drives me crazy when she
> insists that I wouldn't like her if she didn't
> have the church to "keep her in line." I am
> heartened when she asks me, and genuinely whats to
> know, how I manage to be the man she loves without
> religion and a belief in God.

Might I suggest you let her know that it's not really that hard to learn a little "self-control," and that the person she would be deciding things on her own (instead of obeying church leaders) would probably be very exciting for you to see?

Just an idea...:)

Once I committed to living in the here and now, the future--both before and after death--sprang a bunch of leaks. Now it won't hold water. A leaky future's not good for much, so I tossed it into the same garbage pan I threw my regrets, shame, and a bunch of other stuff I don't need anymore.

I am, at heart, a lazy sort; I prefer to let others do the heavy lifting. Not having my own future to carry gets me off the hook for a lot of work in the present.

It's great if folks want to lug around a heavy future. And if they want to make things even more difficult for themselves, I suggest loading up on their children's futures, their spouse's future, and their siblings' futures as well as they own. They can cram all of that stuff into their personal futures if they try really hard.

I can't help 'em, but I'm sure they'll do just fine without me.

The "Celestial" kingdom is the kingdom of God in heaven. (In the Mormon world, this belief is found in D&C76:70). (For the Mormons' take on this, see also: Telestial: D&C 76:81,91 and Tterrestrial, D&C76:71)

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In the bible, we are taught that we individually earn/deserve whatever kingdom we have supported on earth, whether it is God and His (Celestial) kingdom, or being cast out into outer darkiness (where the devil will dwell until he is, at the end, destroyed by fire).

The devil is smart and knows all of this very well--which is why he fights to ruin the plan of God for the rest of us. He has nothing to loose (he has already lost all of worth), and so his only "hope" is to destry the plan of God and God's faithful followers. He takes pleasure in doing evil. (On the other hand, the good find pleasure in doing good.)

God is the final judge, and He is always just (and can only be, or He wouldn't be God), and awards all according to what they have earned during mortal life (through their "works"--their good or bad deeds).

Good deeds support righteousness, and evil deeds support evil (as personified in Satan).

Those who don't make it to the Celestial kingdom are those who condemed themselves to Hell--as determined by their own actions. Such person's can't go to God's kingdom because they have proven themselves unworthy of being there, and would cause havic (if it were possible for them to be there).

The good and evil live together on earth, but cannot do so in heaven, as the fate of each of us is self-determined (doing evil or bad deeds).

Grace is the "time-out" span given God's children wherein they can learn why bad is bad without instantly being condemned to hell for doing something bad (evil). We learn what is bad/evil by injustices done to us, so no one can say, "I didn't know".

Repentance and sorrow for sin is how one "pays" for their sins on earth. Jesus' atoning sacrifice in our behalf is what/who made this possible (Hence, we read, Jesus--the only sinless man--"died for our sins".)

Therefore, "justice" is in debt to Jesus, and from his account with justice, he pays for the sins of others---at a price: Accepting Jesus as our Savior, and repentance (that is, true sorrow for the sins we committed, and making restribution--as best as is possible--to those who were sinned-against.

No one is forced into heaven. No one is forced to accept Jesus as their Savior. But then, no one can expect to gain advantage of salvation of a Savior whom they refuse to believe in, or honor.

Individually, we earn/deserve whatever kingdom we supported by our deeds. God is the final judge and awards all according to what they earned during mortal life: The heavenly (Celestial) kingdom, or Hell.

IMH-educated-Opinion

More to the point re."One of the most insidious things about the doctrines of the church is that this life doesn't matter.":

Without a doubt, church doctrine such as this is wrong.

Of course it matters. For instance, "going to church" does not necessarily make you a good person or guarantee you get a better place in this, or the next world.

One would have to be a very big dope not to know that what one does (or does not do) holds a great deal of significance as to where we are likely to finally end up (on earth, or in the next life).

Knocking down little old ladies to steal their purse, is pretty pitiful. Robbing a bank is not only stupid, it could cost you your life. Committing a crime could land you in prison, where room and board are free (but which I wouldn't advise, as from what one reads other prisoners can be pretty dangerous and bad people to live with).

So, if you must, choose a "white collar crime"--or choose to do something you enjoy that won't do you or others any harm.

--- moving on:____
IMO, masturbation is not (necessarily) a sin. Still,for instance--as in everything else--in excess it can be harmful (even if not one of the 10 BIG commandment "do-nots" warnings).

If we over eat, we get fat. If we over self-satisfy (or with a partner), it becomes old, and not even appreciated all that much. It's falls into the "moderation in all things" category.

In other words, "get a life" is best. What else pleases--and advances--others, you, and your life?

Serving and helping others, I have noticed, is one of the more rewarding of all things one can do. (Help in a way you enjoy doing.)

Okay, but what if you slay an evil dragon while falling into a hellish pit? Like Gandalf. Do you get to be polythinks the White?

The *real* question is: do you get to masturbate in the next life?

Mental masturbation is probably forbidden in all three kingdoms, but I don't know about Outer Darkness.

I bet there are parts of Outer Darkness that really rock!

Just make sure that when you're there, choose a dark place in Outer Darkness for your masturbation (mental or otherwise), ok?
I don't care if you do it, but I don't want to observe it :)

Everyone in prison dreams of being on the outside.

Hold fast to the iron rod. Endure to the end. Don't take your eye of the prize.

No coffee, no tea, no glass of wine with friends. Lessons to prepare. FHE to get ready for. Saturday is the day we get ready for Sunday. Uh-oh. End of the month--gotta go visit some people. Our turn to clean the chapel again? No way. But I gave a talk in SM only two months ago. Really? Heavenly Father wants me to be Primary President? What do I do with my own kids? We need a new car. Can't I skip the tithing this month? I'm upset the neighbor's kid committed suicide. They say he was gay. Okay sisters, veils over your faces. Bow your heads. Say yes. It's show time!


Who wouldn't be putting all their eggs in the basket of the afterlife?

My mother used it as an excuse for her poor treatment of her sons by saying, "this will all be worked out in the afterlife." Isn't that just as good as her saying that she's not changing? We can wait for God to fix her fuck ups?

The same "mo-logic" applies to all kinds of stuff.

Science and religion lead to different conclusions (earth 6000 yrs old or 4.5 billion). Well, we don't everything, but someday when we die we know it all.

Another kind of opposite play is: we can burn up all the resources on earth and who cares about the future because Jesus is a comin and earth was made just for man.