I'm sick, sick, sick of the Jehovah Witnesses and door-to-door salespeople coming around to stalk the neighborhood.

Finally, no more mishies at my door, or traveling burglars staking out the neighborhood.

This is actually good preparation for when I retire to Utah.

I may need land mines on my property there. ;)

What's on your door? ;)

One bright spot where I live is the Mormon mishies haven't been tracting around here in years. Maybe they're concentrating their manpower elsewhere. Good for us. :)

We used to disregard those all the time when I was a missionary because we 'weren't selling anything'. <facepalm>

And people wonder why I feel ashamed of my time spent as a missionary...

Oh dear goodness.

Hopefully the JHW will respect the signs I have now placed around my house.

Pesky mishies anyway.

I don't dislike the missionaries. I am however wary, and have no desire to discuss religion with any of them, since I'm not in the business of selling mine.

In my religion it's forboden to proselytize. I really like that concept, after leaving Mormonism. More people could take a lesson from the Jews. :)

Two people I know - you (well, I only "know" you in the sense of being on RfM, but eventually, we get to know each other pretty well) and my son's best friend have converted to Judaism as adults.

I don't really have any interest from a religious standpoint, as Mo-ism pretty well cured me of any interest in that direction.

But I wonder, as a life-long linguist, how much Hebrew did you have to learn (to read, write, and speak) and was it difficult?
When I was much younger and had a nimbler brain, I took a night class in Greek. I was able to learn the alphabet in about half-an-hour, and can still read it on things like menus and street signs (not bad after nearly half-a-century, huh!)

But Greek has a very distinct relationship between letters and signs. The only weird thing I remember is that one (or maybe both) of the letters for "o" change form at the end of the word. I didn't stay in the class past the very elementary level, but I got around very well when I was there on my own, some ten years ago.

But Hebrew has something I have never run into before. No vowels! There is apparently a single soundless consonant that is used to carry the sound of any stressed vowels. (The very thought of coming up with such a complex concept boggles my mind, but that's what I've read.)

So - as you see it, how much Hebrew did you have to learn, how long did it take, and how difficult was it? I would love to try a class in elementary Hebrew, but despite my language background, I'm terrified that I would go down in flames. I'd love to hear your take on it.

catnip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two people I know - you (well, I only "know" you
> in the sense of being on RfM, but eventually, we
> get to know each other pretty well) and my son's
> best friend have converted to Judaism as adults.
>
> I don't really have any interest from a religious
> standpoint, as Mo-ism pretty well cured me of any
> interest in that direction.
>
> But I wonder, as a life-long linguist, how much
> Hebrew did you have to learn (to read, write, and
> speak) and was it difficult?
> When I was much younger and had a nimbler brain, I
> took a night class in Greek. I was able to learn
> the alphabet in about half-an-hour, and can still
> read it on things like menus and street signs (not
> bad after nearly half-a-century, huh!)
>

Both of my children are linguists and multi-lingual. I have barely been able to master English, although I've been a poet and songwriter for some of my life who writes in a classical strain and my former mastery of songwriting was folk songs. :)

I have not been able to learn a second language to save my soul. Hebrew is not that difficult to learn from what I've been told, but it might as well be to me. At worship services the Hebrew is printed on one side of the prayer book to follow along. And the English equivalent on the other for those like me who are Hebrew challenged.

It's a requirement if you grow up Jewish to learn it. Since I didn't actually become involved in Judaism until 2006 actively, by then was well into my 40's. Learning a language is so much easier for the young than it is when we get older. Although I do know some folks who've been Jewish their lifetimes who struggle with Hebrew. So they wing it, like I do. :)

> But Greek has a very distinct relationship between
> letters and signs. The only weird thing I remember
> is that one (or maybe both) of the letters for "o"
> change form at the end of the word. I didn't stay
> in the class past the very elementary level, but I
> got around very well when I was there on my own,
> some ten years ago.
>
> But Hebrew has something I have never run into
> before. No vowels! There is apparently a single
> soundless consonant that is used to carry the
> sound of any stressed vowels. (The very thought of
> coming up with such a complex concept boggles my
> mind, but that's what I've read.)
>
> So - as you see it, how much Hebrew did you have
> to learn, how long did it take, and how difficult
> was it? I would love to try a class in elementary
> Hebrew, but despite my language background, I'm
> terrified that I would go down in flames. I'd love
> to hear your take on it.

From what I understand it does have some vowels, but they are silent. The alphabet consists of 22 letters, all consonants, which language has evolved from earlier times.

"The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters. It does not have case, but five letters have different forms when used at the end of a word. Hebrew is written from right to left. Originally, the alphabet was an abjad consisting only of consonants, but is now considered an "impure abjad". As with other abjads, such as the Arabic alphabet, scribes later devised means of indicating vowel sounds by separate vowel points, known in Hebrew as niqqud. In both biblical and rabbinic Hebrew, the letters א ה ו י‎ are also used as matres lectionis (the use of certain consonants to indicate a vowel) to represent vowels. There is a trend in modern Modern Hebrew toward the use of matres lectionis to indicate vowels that have traditionally gone unwritten, a practice known as "full spelling".

I know when God is written or Lord, or any word to describe Elohim in English, the vowels are removed and replaced with a hyphen. That's to show respect to the Creator.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Two/Introduction/introduction.html

My daughter speaks and writes fluent Hebrew. She learns languages easily, and majored in French in college. I do not share that ability unfortunately. Wish that I did.

To really understand Judaism best, it would behoove any student of Torah to learn the language. And yet I muddle along for the prayer services and comaraderie of being with fellow Jewish worshipers on Shabbat and other holy days. Some of it rubs off on me even without knowing the Hebrew. Someday I may yet commit myself to learning it, I just don't feel suited to doing it now.

I didn't know you were a linguist. Very cool. It is a discipline in itself. That you were able to learn the Greek alphabet so quickly and retain it after many years indicates you have a good recall for languages. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 09:50PM by Amyjo.

Catnip, I have been told by those who learned Hebrew it is surprisingly easy to learn to read and write.

For someone adept as you are, you may find that to be so if you give it a try.

I know my daughter picked it up fairly quickly. Others have said the same about learning it.

There's lots of courses to choose from. Online. Perhaps a local Jewish Community Center or synagogue where you live offer courses in introduction to Hebrew. And then there's the store bought versions of the language such as Rosetta Stone.

I bet you'd pick it right up if you give it a whirl.

Of course Hebrew has vowels, but usually they are not written because you can infer them. When they are written they take the form of little dots and marks, as I recall, below or above the consonants. Beginning readers start with Hebrew sentences written to include these vowel designations; experienced readers don't need them.

If I am mistaken in any of these details I welcome correction.

Thanks for sharing that info.

It's all Greek to me.

I have a hard time following in the Hebrew prayer books, so I stick with the English side of the page.

Would like to learn some basics of the language if I ever make the time to. I get discouraged easily after two years of college level German, and still could barely speak any German after that drill was over.

My children are multi-lingual and pick languages up easily. I do not believe they get any of that ability from yours truly.

you already know the words.

If you don't know the words, it sounds like you are swimming upstream.

I've had one for a long time.

Imagine in California there are more missionaries no matter where you live.

When I lived in Sacramento was surrounded by quite a few Mormons. Not so much in Palo Alto, but their presence was still known.

When Jay Dubs or Mormons knock on my door, I point to the sign that they've already seen. "But we're not selling anything," they say. "You're right," I say, "not today."

J. W.s sometimes ignore them but they don't return if anyone calls the Kingdom Hall and says they're unwelcome.

It might help to add a footnote at the bottom of the sign. "This includes religion pushers."

Thanks for the suggestions, Cheryl.

If needed, will add it to the door sign. :)

Also may call JHW if they continue to ring my bell.

The last time I had JWs, I asked them "If I became a JW and got baptised. If I then went to the "vicar" and told him to take a long walk on a short pier and any other steps to become an apostate, would that mean I would get shunned and they would stop knocking on my door" "I guess so" "Is there a way of achieving that without the bother and unkindness?". They said yes and agreed to put my name on the appropriate list and stop bothering me. Result!

Way, way back on my mission, we were tracting in an apartment building. It was near where we lived, so it had been canvassed many times.

One of the doors had a notice on it, one of those old-style adhesive DIY labels you used to make by selecting a letter on the label gun and squeezing the handle. The label read, "NO MORMENS" [sic].

I thought it was kind of funny. My companion, however, was shocked and furious. As I recall, his exact words were, "That really makes my blood boil."

We didn't knock on that door.

I remember those label guns, lol.

That's a neat idea, especially considering it worked! :)

Does it work?

We have work men who come along and want to do this or that for us.

This is really more the reason I've placed a sign on my entry doors, is because of the home improvement guys going door to door. I just placed the signs two days ago; so will see if it helps. :)

I've had the same young kid in the past six months show up selling something. Time before last he was selling Anderson Windows. This past week he was selling weed control.

Both times I answered my door he would look past me into the house as though he was scouting it out like burglars do.

Last summer some weed control guy came by (a different salesman,) who I told I wasn't interested. Next thing I know I was getting an invoice in the mail!

Some of these sales people are so pushy, that saying no apparently still means a "yes." Hell with them all.

The Verizon salespeople tend to be pushy too.

The family who lived in my house before we bought it I learned after moving in, had sold it because their teenage sons had become the neighborhood cat burglars, until they were arrested. Out of embarrassment the family moved once the neighbors knew who their kids were.

So glad when I moved in my church family insisted I change all the locks on my door, and even came and did it for me (when I was attending RLDS.) That was even before learning those duffs had moved because of their children's crime spree.

The boys are deceased now and so is their father. One from a drug overdose. The second, older teen from being electrocuted after stripping copper wiring off a commercial building downtown (his feet and hands, and genitals were burned off from touching a live electrical wire.) And their step-dad from lung cancer.

All of them went within five years of each other. Horrific. Our neighborhood is pretty good, overall though. Decent neighbors, quiet neighborhood, etc. My neighbors look out for each other, as do I.

That's also what I got my sign for, was those "home improvement" groups, as they have more than one person knocking on doors. I guess the local JW's were told to respect those signs, as they don't knock when they read the sign. For salespeople, the sign also works, as they tend to leave me alone.

As for the Mormon missionaries, despite their apartment in the neighborhood, they know not to knock on my door, as the local mission office seems to take my threat of bad press and lawsuit for harassment seriously. I did that when I resigned, and they started their harassment campaign, and I was fully prepared to follow through on the threats I made.

pollythinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does it work?

It has never worked for me with missionaries. I've, consistently, had a "No Solicitors" sign on all my homes since adulthood and I've had Morgbots, JWs, SDAs, and some kind of wacky environmentalist group all come repeatedly. The sign didn't even phase them.

I have lived in Davis County, Utah, for five years. I have never had missionaries come to my house. Yup, you read that right. Never once in 5 years. The first week or so I was here a couple of older men from the ward or stake or something came by, but I said I wasn't Mormon and wasn't interested. They said "Have a nice day," and that was that. My next door neighbor used to be the ward clerk, and I think he told them I am a hopeless case and don't waste their time.

Oh, and "No Soliciting" signs are pretty worthless. I still get the sales folks coming by. I just say "Can you read?" They get pissed and say "Of course," I point to my sign, and then I just shut the door.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2017 05:31PM by UTtransplant.

I've always wanted to sell "NO SOLICITING" signs......door to door.

It would just be fun.

Steven Wright? Is that you?

I know it's sad, but if you have a big flag in front of your house and some military stickers or the like, they're usually walk past your house. If you see them and peek out the blinds, you might see them looking at your house and discussing it, then walk past it to the next house
They're against serving in the military, won't stand for the pledge or the national anthem, don't salute the flag or someone's rank,

Have gotten JWs, politicians, kids selling stuff for school/sports teams, etc. Not the Mo Mishies yet, but they are very scarce here in my 'burb, only got approached in parking lot of grocery store.

Was approached by a Jehovah Witness in a gas station parking lot in St George once. He just walked right up to me, a complete stranger, to start a conversation while we were both getting gas.

Good news though, he wasn't there to share the "Good News," JHW style.

Rather to share how he liked living in St George as a retirement community, and why he was drawn there. The Mormon factor was not a deterrent for him or his wife.

Way back when, my dad put up a "no soliciting" sign on the door. A salesman came by and kept ringing the doorbell. My dad opened the door and asked: "Can't you read the sign?!" He said, "yes but I don't believe in signs"! My dad said: "well, I do!!", and then slammed the door in his face! We have a no soliciting sign on our door; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-SOLICITING-Sign-NO-TRESPASSING-SIGN-DURABLE-ALUMINUM-FULL-COLOR-NO-RUST-/222484931354

http://www.mydoorsign.com/no-soliciting-no-excuses-showcase-sign/sku-se-6867

This one is a little more severe:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-SOLICITING-EXPLICIT-SIGN-DURABLE-ALUMINUM-NO-RUST-FULL-COLOR-CUSTOM-SIGN-/222202274448

The first one's my favorite.

The second is no nonsense if the first doesn't do the trick.

The third is for extreme measures. :)

That's pretty cute. I've seen "Beware of dog" signs before. Not "Beware of cats" signs. :)

I was wandering around the backwoods of Rarotonga (south Pacific island). There was a dirt road that went back into the jungle so far that you couldn't see any houses. There was a big hand painted sign that said "NO MORMONS!". That was pretty clear.

That is very funny.

:)

I recommend not even opening the door. You can talk to people through a closed and locked door if necessary. Or simply ignore them.

The only ones I might miss are the volunteer firemen on their annual drive, or the boy scouts on their pop bottle campaigns.

Not answering the doorbell is a good idea in itself. Since I get Fed Ex or UPS stuff periodically, and other incidental things on my doorstep, I'm still more inclined to answer than not.

My storm door doubles as a security door.

I have a no soliciting sign on my door and have used it on the missionaries. I pointed to the sign and said sweetly "I have a no soliciting sign" then shut the door before they could recover. But had I not been fast enough and they had claimed they weren't selling anything, I was ready to respond "Yes you are, you are selling eternal salvation for 10 percent of my gross income and most of my free time. And it isn't yours to sell. But don't kid yourself, you aren't doing a good work here - you are just selling Mormonism for LDS Inc."

Excellent response, CA girl.

That's a keeper! :)

I have front door similar to this:http://www.glasscraft.com/images-1/showdoor4_lg.jpg The little window can be opened from the inside.

This allows me to see anyone on my front door step. I can open the little window and talk to them without opening my entire door. I love love this door.

I have used the little "speak easy window" several times. People on the other side can't see anything but my face. This makes them extremely uncomfortable. I'm a bit surprised how antsy people get when you won't actually open your door, but can still talk to them. Especially men. They get downright pissed.

I would recommend a door like this to anyone. Just make sure it has one of those cute grills on the outside, and it can't be accessed to get to your interior locks.

My favorite was a guy that showed up wanting to clean the carpets. We'd just moved in, and the carpet was only a week old. I told him this at least 3 times. He seemed very agitated that I wouldn't open the door. To make matters worse, I didn't see a vehicle anywhere. We live about a half mile from the main road. He was up to no good. I think I dodged some bad juju.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2017 11:46PM by janis.

You can scare off the missionaries with a door like that, by saying "what is wanted?" and other lines from the temple veil ceremony.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2017 11:54PM by adoylelb.

For the first year after I left mormonism, I hung my green temple apron on my front door the last week of every month. That did the trick.

I thought it would be funny to hang a mallet with a string to the little window grid. My DH thought I was taking things to far. He doesn't think mormonism is as funny as I do.

Imagine: tap tap tap: Little glass door opens: What is wanted?


Mormon backing slowly down the driveway to their car.

Add to the mallet a sign, door only answered for the "secret" knock?

You guys are hilarious

Yes, my "No Soliciting" sign works as a conversation starter and ender. I'm too intimidated by aggressive Mormon men coming to my door in groups of two or three--usually after 9:30 at night, and I can't think of anything to say.

I don't turn on the porch light. I don't ever answer the door, but shout through the closed door:

"We're not going to open the door.
Missionaries: "Hello, We're from the church of..."
Me: "No Soliciting."
Missionaries: "No, we're not..."
Me: "There's a sign on our door that says 'No Soliciting.' I mean it. Go away."
I Repeat the conversation, and they usually go away after the second or third repeat.
If they still don't leave, I say, "Go away, or I will call the police."

It doesn't do any good to try to explain or debate with Mormon missionaries. Just use the same few words over and over. It's called the "broken record" technique.

The "No Soliciting" sign has worked with everyone else. Several times during the summer, a white van parks in our neighborhood, and several teen-agers get out of it, and they spread themselves out over the neighborhood. They aren't "selling" anything, either, but are asking for money, point-blank, to "help with their education." They say they are from "Inner City, L.A." Our neighbors called the police, and, sure enough, this is a scam--but they just keep coming back. One of them had my daughter almost convinced, but I came home, and told the guy to leave my daughter alone, or I'd call the police. Just then, the police showed up, and the con-man ran off. Whenever the "White Van People" come to our neighborhood, the neighbors put up a sign, warning everyone of the scam, and giving them a number to call.

I don't have a No Soliciting sign. I have an 8-foot privacy fence and a locking gate across the driveway.

I am endlessly amused by the brass "WELCOME" sign my husband wired to the locked gate, because by all the board fencing and metal gating, clearly unannounced visitors are anything but "welcome."

I like how you think! :)

I had to explain to solicitors once what my sign meant. Had to explain to too many people what it meant.

Personally, I have found my broken doorbell to be more effective! LOL

I want a sign that says: No soliciting. We are too broke to buy anything, We know who we are voting for. We have found Jesus. Seriously, unless you are selling thin mints..go away.

RMM

About eight years ago I put up a "Posted No Trespassing" sign. It's easily seen as you walk up to my front door. On the door I had/have posted another sign -- "You are trespassing if you are here for any religious purpose or on behalf of any religion. We will prosecute to the full extent of the law." And the Utah Code is listed.

Still, the JW's kept coming. Even shoving one of their pamphlets into my door, right below the 'You are trespassing...' sign. Needless to say, I was upset. I went to their Kingdom Hall and posted a note on their door. It said something like, 'Stay the hell away from my house', and the address.
Then I went to the city police to report the problem. Since that time the JW's have never been back to my house.

At that same time, I was nicely asking the LDS folks to stay away from our house and it wasn't working. So, I went the nearest LDS chapel, the Stake Center down the road, and each home in the ward boundaries and posted a note on their doors that stated they were trespassing if they were at our home for any religious purpose and that we would prosecute to the full extent of the law.
That worked.

A few years later I had a solicitor at our door. He made a comment about the 'no trespassing for religious purposes' sign and I said, "Whatever you are selling, at least there's a chance I could use that."

It takes a lot of work to be left alone. Based on my experiences, asking JW's and LDS folks nicely doesn't work.

I have had No Soliciting signs in Tulsa, OK, Kansas City, KS, and Rochester, NY and they have never NOT worked! Within a week of moving to Twin Falls, ID, I had put up a No Soliciting sign and gone about my business, never anticipating that it wouldn't work.

A couple of months later, my doorbell rang and I was surprised to see two young Mormon proselytizers. I interrupted their spiel by pointing to my clearly worthless sign. I got the response I was expecting which was that they weren't selling anything. I told them that the definition of soliciting includes what they were doing. (That bounced right off!)

Then they made the mistake of mentioning the nice conversation they had with my husband the last time they had come by! By this time I had lost my temper, and I told them they were hereby notified that they were trespassing, and that if they stepped foot on my property again I would call the authorities and press charges.

That was a rental house, and now we own a house in a subdivision with a gate, and the hoa dues are worth it just to avoid all the missionaries. As a footnote, I'm not at all worried about my husband turning LDS, he's just nicer than I am and I try to protect him from garbage like this that wastes his valuable time off.

Do you still live in Twin?

One of my brothers lives there.

Was there one year ago to visit (hadn't been there since my college days.) It's a nice enough town, but too "in the middle" of the state of Idaho for me. I've lived in Boise and SE Idaho, but never Twin.

It's grown quite a bit since my last visit, though still looks and feels very rural.

Glad to hear HOA subdivisions are (hopefully) a deterrent to missionaries tracting. I'll probably be moving to one of those when I retire to Utah. Something to think about as I look at houses. :)

Yes, we've been in Twin eleven years now--- it's the longest I've ever lived anywhere in my life. I didn't know much about Mormons until we moved to Idaho, and now I know way more than I ever wanted to know!

Answering the door ranks with answering the phone. If I don't
recognize the caller through the viewer or the caller ID there
will be no answer to either.

For me this holds especially true for a cell phone. If I don't
recognize the caller's phone number it goes to voice mail after
the set number of rings. Answering the call just promotes the
abuse.

It says "Hate has no home here," in English, Arabic, Cambodian, Portuguese, Spanish and several other languages I don't know, but that are spoken by the home health workers who pass though this neighborhood.

Not exactly on your topic - but nice to see you Amyjo!

Oh, I like that!

Thanks, Ms Mom, good to see you too!

Also, speaking of the languages of the world, here's a photo of sculptures representing the women of the world - at Chautauqua Institute, Mayville, NY. It's there year round. The tourist season is mainly the nine weeks of summer beginning right after Memorial Day and ending by Labor Day. Chautauqua's the world's oldest literary institute, founded by ministers for families to have a retreat locally that wasn't too expensive.

Since then, over 100 years ago already, it has grown to an international institute that draws lecturers, artists, performers, authors, etc, from all over the world each year. It's world class, while retaining its quaint charm of yesteryear. Presidents have visited there, world renowned scientists, etc. Steve Martin performed there several years ago, playing his banjo. :)

You'd love it there!

ETA: All of the major religions of the world are represented at Chautauqua. Notably, Mormonism is not one of them.

http://www.thewomenseye.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chautauqua1.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E9q1FTVBfXs/maxresdefault.jpg

https://americantourismbook.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/p1010073.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2017 08:24PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo, I have just a couple questions about your Judaism. Did you convert via orthodox Judaism? If not, you aren't considered Jewish by Israel and many traditional Jews. The people I've known who had converted to Judaism did so via orthodox (which takes years of hard study and tough beit din) even though they switched to reform or conservative. They wished to be considered to be Jewish by all forms of Judaism as well as the state of Israel.

I didn't need to convert to Judaism, because I was born Jewish through my mother's lineage.

If the mother is Jewish, so are her children. I come from a direct descent of Jewish mothers going back centuries. Jewish on my mother's side, Mormon on my father's.

The odds of being born a Mormon are less than 1% of the population. Same for being born a Jew. What are the odds of having been born both? Out of all the billions of people on the planet, go figure.

I haven't needed to take any conversion classes. Attend where I wish as I wish. I've decided on a Conservative synagogue. There are Conservative Jews in Israel who are considered fully Jewish, albeit some of the Orthodox Jewish are hard pressed to acknowledge any Jews other than Orthodox - Reform and Conservative can still make Aliyah to Israel.

One of the women I worship with at my synagogue spent 15 winters in Salt Lake City on skiing vacations with her husband before he passed away. She worshiped with the Jews of Salt Lake, where she told me that there are app 15-21 Mormons who convert annually to their form of Judaism there in Salt Lake City. It's a blend of Reform and Conservative. They have a mikvah in the synagogue there (similar to a baptismal font in the Mormon churches,) for those converting.

I hadn't heard of converts joining Orthodox before going Conservative or Reform. The ones I've known through synagogue just converted through the Reform or the Conservative.

One of my children embraces Orthodox Judaism. Again, she didn't need to convert even though she was born and raised a Mormon, like I was until we left that during her childhood. We didn't learn until she was older we are fully Jewish and required no conversion to Judaism. It worked for both of us even as we went in different directions in our worship. She now lives in Israel, where Orthodoxy is more prevalent than the others are. Maybe it makes her feel more at peace with her decision to live there and be a practicing Jew. If I moved to Israel I'd still be a Conservative or a Reform. My rabbi recently made Aliyah to Israel. He's been Conservative for all of his life. And will remain so in Israel. He has converted non-Jews to Judaism through our shul, and they go through full conversion classes before they go through the mikvah.

I don't know how that affects their decision to make Aliyah (immigration to Israel.) Halacha Law allows those born of Jewish mothers to make Aliyah even if they weren't raised Orthodox, like myself. They aren't recognized among the Orthodox in Israel as "fully Jewish" if they aren't Orthodox or have parents who are both Jewish. It is just for purposes of establishing who's Jewish for making Aliyah. So in a sense they are discriminated by Jews in Israel after moving there. Same for weddings. Only Orthodox weddings are acknowledged although that is slowly changing as the other forms of Judaism are becoming more vocal and making their voices heard - they are slowly gaining acceptance among Israeli orthodoxy - but the hard liners will probably never fully accept them as "fully Jewish."