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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 03:54PM

I was thinking about how ridiculous the Mormon ideas of pre-existence and Celestial Kingdom are. What they teach just does not add up, and I mean in just a basic math sense.

Firstly the supposition is that we all existed as 'spirt children' of our heavenly father and heavenly mother. It sounds like one mother but Mormons believe in God's model of polygamy and that God is a polygamist. So that really means we could be children from a number of different 'heavenly mothers'..

But also they teach that God was one a man and then made it to perfection so that he was able to resurrect his physical body and live in it's perfected state for eternity. We are told we can all achieve this state and be resurrected after death like Christ and God were. So that would imply that God and one of his wives in the 'celestial kingdom' had physical sex (which I think is part of Mormon doctrine) and through that act reproduced billions of 'spirit child'..

It's always assumed we were once spirit in the pre-existence and that we were also children of God and 'mother' (whichever one that was).. So through a physical act in physical bodies they created spirits?

And the number of spirits seems to be infinite. (Somehow God has sex an infinite number of times!!.. with how many wives? Nobody knows.. probably a lot to make infinite children!) Yet we have a finite amount of space on this planet and each spirit is supposed to come 'down' here to gain a body, because they weren't able to get one from the physical act of procreation in physical bodies.

And THEN after we gain a body we have to be baptism, go through all the crazy temple rituals, get married (esp. important for women) but only have monogynous relationships on earth, THEN in the next life, the men can become gods and the women their slave wives to bear more 'spirit' children forever and ever and ever. Each god will have his own world to populate. Each god will have multiple (probably without number even) wives to help him.

Yes the amount of men and women born are almost born in equal numbers. According to Mormonism our gender identity does not change. Once female (in the pre-existence), always female (on earth and in the next life), and same for males. So what happens to all of the extra men? According to the polygamist model only a few men can actually make it to god hood. I guess the rest take on other roles just like here on earth, it must be a hierarchy, so that there would be 12 disciples, a quorum of 70, etc etc..

Here on earth in the Mormon hierarchy at least there is a chance for the men to progress and one day one of them will make prophet status (i.e god status basically), but in the next life then one would assume the men keep competing for the prophet/god spot? And then what happens when one is chosen, the rest stay in the same level forever?

Do they also not reproduce then?

If there is even something called 'eternity' (a word Mormon's love to throw around) then how is there a beginning, middle and end? How is the 'beginning' us being 'born' as spirits and the end being judged to take our place in an 'eternal' hierarchy?

Plus I thought the whole idea of the celestial kingdom, the whole appeal of it to the LDS members is that you get to return to dwell there with God the Heavenly Father and Jesus and bask in their love?

But then if some of the men can become gods and take women to be their wives then those wives and maybe some servant men have to come with them and leave God and Jesus?

Also what about the 'forever marriages'? There is so much stress placed on getting married in the temple so these monogamous couples can stay 'together forever'.. And for the romantic types that is very appealing, esp. at first when you are young and blinded by love. But how can that be true (millions of 'sealed' forever couples) and the polygamist model be true? Esp. if only 'good' Mormons can make it to that level, clearly there will have to be some reorganizing going on where the god men will have to steal away the other already married women from the non-god men. (Sort of like Joe Smith and Brigham did in the early days)..

But of course there are all the dead gentiles Mormons baptize so that they could then become Mormons in heaven and be up for a role as servant to one of the gods in either a wife or priesthood position.

And then the 'temple work' is supposed to go on in the next life forever as well. What is appealing about doing those crazy rituals forever? What's appealing about baby making (esp. for the women who have to bear these endless spirit children!) forever?

It sounds like Mormon heaven is Mormon church and temple work without anything else, for the rest of 'eternity'. (somehow linear and not a circle)..

How is that something even Mormons would want? Shouldn't 'Heaven' (whatever name you want to give it like CK) be a place to cast off all of your burdens and rest?

I for one want NOTHING to do with their CK if there possibly could be such a thing.

But honestly the questions their theology poses is completely mind boggling.

But Mormons defend these types of questions by saying things like 'one day all will be revealed' and claim it's just confusing because our earth brains (pretty little heads) can't take it all in. It's just beyond our understanding so we just have to have 'faith' (i.e. blind obedience) and do as we are told by the 'prophets'..

I guess it must be nice just to shove all that logic and reason away when it gets distressing.

I am sure there are mysterious about the universe and beyond and afterlife that are unknown to us. But I am okay with not knowing everything. And perhaps after I die I'll know more or I'll be reborn. I don't know.

But to pretend that your church leaders DO know all about the afterlife and to present this totally illogical model to the members but then not allow answers to questions or even allow questions to me just proves further what a cult this is and that it's all about mind control.

Most all of their doctrine is contradictory. But applying logic to any of it is just sinful in the LDS members minds!

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 04:00PM

You're right -- mormon heaven makes no sense whatsoever.

Then again, neither does anyone else's "model" of such an idea.

I once had a bishop tell me that "when resurrected bodies procreate, they produce spirit babies."
I swear, that's what he said.
I had the urge to ask him snarky questions, like "So when resurrected-body god procreates, whose name does he yell? or
"So is resurrected-body god's semen physical or spiritual?"

But I chickened out.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 06:04PM

Joseph Smith had a habit of being wrong on just about everything. His dumb decisions made enemies everywhere he went. He was inspired to found a bank in the exact year a national banking panic would occur. Wrong about every one of his prophesies. Wrong about his own history. So you tell me, what are the odds of him being right about heaven?

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Posted by: secret not sacred ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 07:33PM

In the Mormon Church, the big reward for men who make it to the celestial kingdom is to have sex for eternity, producing countless spirit children forever and ever. But...doesn't there have to be a war between your spirit kids before they acquire bodies on the planet you design? Apparently when you are god you don't call the shots but let your kids come up with some plans they think is the best way to make it through mortal life and then to heaven, and the kid with the most popular plan wins! The looser gets to make life miserable for everyone and try and prevent them from returning to their parents. You, as god, then get to watch your kids suffer the miseries of mortal existence, often ignoring them when they cry out in pain. Sounds horrible to me.

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Posted by: PasserBy ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 07:51PM

The talk about a Celestial Kingdom stems from the Romantic Age, of the early church- it refers to the Sun World, generally, actually more an upper physical world than a heaven. The idea of Eternal Families is romantic.
God, or Gaaod, is the god of this Earth apecifically- was once a man, now deified- true, but this cannot be true of the Supreme.
Souls are the only thing ever created in the Eternal Ever- or Non-Creation; we can beget children, but not souls. Nothing else has ever been created, nothing will ever cease to exist, reall. This Universe, for example, was never created- it has always been; goes to sleep after periodic dissolutions, then wakes again in A New Beginning... Genesis should begin, 'In A beginning"...

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 08:28PM

Well, that's something I've wondered about--the Pre-Existence and the P-E like Heaven or *is* it Heaven? If we are the literal children of God, then the P-E and heaven must be the same place, or else he has to keep popping back and forth between planes of existence! I've written at length about the silliness of us being born in a perfect place and then getting sent to live in a physical body to "learn" and have all kinds of crap thrown at us that we're suppose to endure, all in order to be good enough to GET BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED FROM!! It's like a Heavenly rich kid gets kicked down to earth and has to clean toilets at a truck stop so he can "learn humility" and get back to the mansion...but, if he jerks off in the truck stop bathroom...uh oh....

And, if God is a resurrected/perfected being, then when was *his* resurrection??

It's turtles all the way down......

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 09:16PM

LOL. I've enjoyed the responses so far! Great thoughts!

And yes I hadn't thought about the 'war in heaven' part needing to happen for each world.. new Christs and Satans after your spirit children all fought. Yikes!

And I was thinking about the baptisms for the dead and what a never ending task that really is (almost like a work project from God to keep us busy, digging holes and filling them up again type of work.. at least it feels like something the church designed to keep us further enslaved in 'righteous work')..

I mean it is never really going to get done. Think of how much catching up Mormons have to do. I mean the 'true' church only came about 1830 years after Christ? So do they have to baptize everyone that ever existed B.C. as well? And even if it was only A.D. there are simple millions or more people for whom there are NO records. So even if every Mormon did genealogy faithfully (or obsessively like my father!) you'd firstly not get through baptizing all of the people esp. as so many new people are being born every day all over the world! And secondly there are all of those people that will have no baptisms done for them.

If God cares about ALL his children, and they ALL need to have baptisms done for them, than how account for the discrepancy? All those souls without record, no birth certificates, etc. Do they just not count? Are they just not important? Aren't we all equally important?

I know, there really is no point picking it apart since it's all so ludicrous. But I think there's something healing about naming all the things that didn't add up for us while living within that LDS system, but that we weren't allowed to ask questions about.

Thanks for the input everyone!

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 09:32PM

And I agree that most ideas of Heaven are ridiculous and if religions didn't have an idea of heaven and hell as reward or punishment in the after life they would hardly be able to keep the large following they have and they wouldn't have the kind of control over their members that they have.

I sometimes think Hindu ideas of reincarnation make more sense. But then again it sounds similar, the idea of starting off somewhere as a soul (not sure still how the soul originates but that's like asking what was at the root of all creation, where is the start? if there is no start, than how is that possible? I know there is still a limitation in our thinking in that we think in finite terms and it's hard to understand non linear infinite concepts).. and then progressing through many many lifetimes as different aspects of creation (not always human).. But there is this sense of climbing a latter to get to the top and achieve a type of perfection (nirvana, enlightenment, bliss) which assumes we in our current states are imperfect. And then if you get into the racist aspects of that dogma (esp. as practiced in India), if you are a darker skin color you can be sure you are still far from perfection!

I don't know if that was the essence of the original philosophy but it certainly got twisted that way by racist humans.

Also being a female means you still have a long ways to go.

Or if you are an animal than you have even farther to go.

I always disagreed with that notion, that humans are superior to all other life forms. I've always found so much evidence to dispute that. And even if it's simply a matter of 'intelligence' aren't cetaceans supposed to be more intelligent than humans (esp. whales who have the biggest brains)? So shouldn't we be trying to reincarnate into dolphins or whales?

i dont' know I think it's hard to get away from this idea of achieving perfection or being judged or a better place (or worse depending on how you are judged) after this life, in any of religious teachings.

But the Mormon model just even seems more far fetched than most, maybe just because it's more complicated and so leaves itself open to more analysis (even though somehow most members don't try to do that!).. or maybe it makes it more daunting for a lot of members to try to take on the task of analyzing? I don't know!

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 10:27PM

I believe in 'reincarnation' based on my 'past life experiences'. Besides it never was logical to me a baby who dies only needed to experience what they did when others live a 'full life' and experience a whole lot more.

I haven't studied 'Hindu reincarnation'. However, I think 'reincarnation' is closer to what we will find out the 'correct' model is.

I have experienced a number of past lives and I did get the idea of 'progression' but it is more about 'experiences' that we need ---- whatever that means. We need to 'experience' things to progress. I also definitely did not get any indications that race, color, sex, etc. had anything to do with where we are now.

I have not seen glimpses of any past life where I was not my current sex but many have. Experiencing both sexes seems a 'minimal requirement' to me to 'understand' these type of experiences.

If 'reincarnation' is the model we have probably been 'reincarnating' for billions of years.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2017 10:29PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 04:55PM


I sometimes have felt I got glimpses into past lives too, when in that in between wake and sleep state. I'll have this whole story I am a part of that is really fascinating when I wake from it since it has no relation to my current life at all. Recently I was a train conductor for example (in my 'flash back') and there was this posy of men who wanted to make me have someone ride up with me in my conductor booth and I was really opposed to that. I told them I don't care what they did on the train, I just wanted to be left alone to do my job!

I don't usually remember in that much detail after. And I don't know that it's evidence of a past life. But it's intriguing.

I also tend to do a lot of dreaming or at least remember more dreams than most do. And I have been able to lucid dream and what feels like astral travel or some kind of O.B.E. experience.

But if I am remembering past lives it seems I have been male a number of times but also female a number of times as well. Maybe it explains why I've never been able to strongly identify with gender in this life (I mean I don't have a problem with being female and I have a strong heterosexual drive, but I have never strongly identified with being a gender exactly)..

Anyway interesting to contemplate for sure. :)

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 05:19PM

I have gotten glimpses of past lives in many ways but the best which gives you a lot of information (they usually ask certain questions) fast is do a 'guided past life' meditation on utube. A guided meditation is as close to getting 'hypnotized' as I know, even a hypnotist friend of mine said it is the same thing if done properly, so it is like a past life 'regression'.

My past lives shocked me as I had never remember pretending I was in any of the roles I saw in the meditation.

The only problem that remains is were these actual glimpses of past lives or can my mind make up anything fast if challenged to do it. Even some hypnotists call them 'past life regressions' but cannot guarantee that is what they really are.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 09:07PM

To Spiritist- Oh that's right I tried one of those past life hypnosis youtube videos once.

I think that was when I remembered being a black woman (slave) in the south during slave days and being envious of the men (other slaves) who had musical instruments. I wanted one but wasn't able to have one. (Maybe that's why I play guitar now?)

It was brief but felt real and different from dreaming in that it was very clear visually (my dreams tend to be fuzzy) and I could see where I lived and this cabin in detail.

And another time I was walking in the rain in what felt like Europe during the 20s or 30s, I think Paris. I was looking at the cobblestone. I also had the impression of being a black woman. I could see my thick high heel shoes and stockings with that line on the back of them and these men were calling after me. One called me 'Harriet' and then I woke up.

That was years ago and I still remember. I should try it again sometime. But you're right, hard to know for sure what that's all about.

I also went to an 'intuitive' woman once. She apparently was a kind of medium. And while doing my session a spirit (male) was bugging her to let him talk. So apparently he was my father from a really long time ago and it was on some polynesian island and he said he was the chief of the village and I was an orphan and he took me in and cared for me and taught me to appreciate beauty in nature. And said I was a really good swimmer and caught a lot of fish for the village. He taught me which ones were for catching (for food) and which were for talking to.

I kind of got goose bumps during that. It's been my favorite past life story even if not one I remembered directly. I know she could have made it up. But I am a really good swimmer now and very appreciative of nature and like to talk to animals and i am an artist. Plus I love the south pacific islands so much and really want to move there. I feel at home there. The woman told me (when I related that part, she didn't know before hand) that it was because that was one of my happy lives. And what really struck me about it was that I had a father figure who really loved me and was kind to me (unlike my current life). So of course that was something appealing to me, to think of that possibility. Not just being bound to one family.

I mean how is it that Mormons really think their 'eternal family' deal is that attractive as a selling point (missionaries definitely tend to use that one).. There are so many of us who were/are NOT happy in our current families and certainly do NOT want to live with them for ETERNITY!! :)

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Posted by: catniip ( )
Date: May 18, 2017 10:33PM

I don't believe I want any part of that. It sounds REALLY boring."

Kind of like when you get home from church, you kick off your church shoes, get out of your church clothes, put everything where it goes in the closet, get back into your regular weekend clothes, and get busy enjoying the rest of the weekend.

Having done the stuff you felt OBLIGED to do, it's time to do the stuff you REALLY want to do.

I've been retired for nearly 15 years now. Have I ever felt bored, with nobody looking over my shoulder or telling me what to do? NOT ONCE.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 04:58PM

YES Catnip! I know exactly what you mean! I can't wait to retire. And right now I only work part time anyway. I try to 'work' as little as possible. I want to have time to do things I want to do in this life. I have a strong drive that way.

Maybe because for the first 22 years of my life I had to spent SO much of my time devoted to 'THE church' that I resented not being able to live my life the way I want to!

Not having had real freedom of choice though, I still tend to find it difficult to be sure about what it is I really want to do with my life. I've changed course many times as a result.

Ultimately I feel okay with just having different experiences and not having to BE anything or ACHIEVE anything.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 12:17AM

The unlikelihood of ANY heaven model.
They are ALL idiotic.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 04:58PM


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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 08:08AM

That's a deep and in-depth post. Well-done. And I like your stage name here..

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 04:58PM


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Posted by: commongentile ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 08:20AM

I once read or heard the following: "The more detailed descriptions of the afterlife become, the more unsatisfactory and untenable they seem."

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 04:58PM


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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 02:01PM

I just thought of another nonsensical yet mormonish mythical thing: when a person dies young, often a TBM will say that "God needed them in the afterlife because they were soooo righteous" or "God needed them to be a missionary in the afterlife".

Well, God would KNOW that sort of thing beforehand wouldn't he? I mean, He knows when a sparrow falls, right? Then why the hell send them super speshul spirits to earth with the rest of us unlearned dipshits in the first place!?

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 19, 2017 05:04PM

That's right! I've heard that too!

Wow 'God' sounds like an a-hole! I mean he just grabs people when he 'needs' them in heaven? Can that really be true? He doesn't have enough help already with his millions of wives and spirit children and all those Mormons who passed on already?

it just never makes sense, the things they say like that.. but it doesn't have to make sense, it just has to hit the right emotional button.

I have noticed that Mormons equate emotional states (usually manipulated ones) as feeling the 'holy ghost' and getting a 'witness' of the 'truth of the gospel'.. that's how they can keep going on blind faith, ignoring logical reasonable doubts because they FEEL it's all TRUE.

It's not 'spiritual' at all in my mind. It's emotional manipulation. I can see how my mom has to keep herself feeling those emotions (stay with that 'high') or she'll come down and go into withdrawal and not have those warm and fuzzies anymore and might have to actually face DOUBTS, Oh no!

So her favorite thing to do is put on a movie, either a Disney one (or something from the 50s when media was big into brainwashing to keep women 'in their place'), or an LDS production, just something to keep her feeling those feelings and to keep those nasty thoughts at bay! Best not to think at all if one can manage it!

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 20, 2017 04:24PM

I've been thinking more on this topic. And have come to the conclusion that my personal idea of heaven is without a supreme ruler/creator/god/king what have you.

i think heaven should be a place where everyone is equal and cooperative.

(oops, that sounds too much like 'evil' communism, doesn't it!)

And I suppose Mormons would think my description of heaven to be evil somehow because we aren't supposed to be equal, we are supposed to be part of a hierarchy where God is our master and we have to OBEY him.

Again that just doesn't sound right at all to me, this idea of obedience to some master. Doesn't that make us his slaves??

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: May 20, 2017 04:41PM

Well even with thousands of heavenly mothers, Elohim would be busy impregnating non-stop to create 50 billion or so souls.

No wonder he's too damn busy to address world problems.

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Posted by: shapeshifter ( )
Date: May 20, 2017 08:08PM

LOL! Exactly!

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