How could God's Prophet (McKay) fail to see & understand this for what it was?...

Mistakes on mistakes, failures of politicians to consider the wishes of the Vietnamese people, crass imperialism of French & British, supported by the good ole' U. S. of A, tracable back to decisions of Truman & those who followed him?

How & Why, that is...

Maybe they were too busy trying to get Native Americans to grasp and accept the concept that they, the Native Americans, were of the House of Israel, along with the concordant information, that with the proper behavior and payment of tithes, they could become White and Delightsome.

So they could have been too busy to look into the war.

But I can for sure tell you that they did the best they could to keep mormon boys from having to serve. Or at least RMs...

Domino theory

Mittens & I have One Thing in common:

We went on missions instead of Viet Nam.

As did my father. I've never thought to ask him about it until today...

Good for you for watching it. I lived through that era, and just can't.

Whatever blindness Mormon leaders had, it was a common failing. I remember as a child looking up Vietnam on a globe. I had to turn the globe around to the other side. Such a tiny country. Our leaders felt that we had to stop the Communist threat. It was decades before we all understood that communism would eventually fall under its own weight. The rest of us had to listen to the death tolls every night on the news. Every.single.night. And for what?

One good that came out of it was the all-volunteer force.

I never realized the impact of watching the names scrolling by each night until 9/11. When they started to scroll names I had to shut off all coverage. It was some kind of hideous flashback moment for me.

I am watching the Ken Burns documentary to see if I view this differently as an adult. So far I have learned a few things I did not know.

It feels odd to me to view this as an adult instead of as a child of pseudo John Birch parents.

In my family, war dodgers were pure evil. Killing civilians? Well, they weren't as special as us. Kill commies! President Johnson was the devil (cozying up to civil rights and all).

I've only been able to watch parts of the documentary. It's very disturbing.

What did we learn? I'm not sure, looking at the world today.

of anti-war protesting - marches, rallies, and concerts by anti-war singers.

Hey, classmates of mine - one I had known since kindergarten - were fighting and dying over there. And for WHAT? A two-bit little country nobody ever heard of, until the war.

I was angry about it then, and after watching tonight's episode, I realize that I am still angry about it. Three guys from my high school graduating class died over there. Craig, Mike and John should have been able to grow up, go to college, marry, and enjoy their grandchildren like most of the rest of us do.

We should have taken a closer look at France's experience over there, and not have gotten involved.

Don't know if I can watch it, but I'd like to try.

My sister's boyfriend was there. He went through hell because of it. It scarred him for life. He is such a great guy. One of the nicest people I've ever met.

PBS. In Salt Lake, it is channel 7.

I was in high school when this all unfolded and had several classmates who were drafted. It was a sad, scary time.

I watched it last night and plan to see all the episodes. It was stunning to me that I did not know all the history as to how we got caught up in that conflict.

I was married for a short time to a man who served in Vietnam. It will be interesting to see and hear from others who were there and will probably help me understand what my ex went through.

Interesting factoid: the TV show "Happy Days" was motivated at least in part to contrast the teenage experience of the 50's, when "teenager" meant "silly and harmless", with that of the Vietnam generation, for whom things like Prom and silly pranks and teenage angst were simply not an option, seeing a show we first had to decide on whether we were willing to go to Vietnam and kill a bunch of people with whom they had no quarrels.

As others have pointed out, it was firmly expected in Mormonism that the Commies had to be stopped, and that Americans had a God-given right to commit whatever atrocities were necessary to do that. Funny, though- it was also expected that Mormon boys would
become missionaries rather than soldiers.

Weird times.

A kid in the ward of my youth (who later became my BIL--now ex), was a major partier and had become completely inactive in the early 70s. The last year of the draft lottery, he had a single-digit number. In a matter of just a couple of weeks he repented, got his mission call and left for the MTC. Trust me, there were contingencies in place to expedite that process when needed.

Joan Baez sang a great cover of "Brothers in Arms".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NGqbWGGC4U

I was a child in California during the Vietnam War and remember the anti war sentiment. I remember seeing horrific pictures in Life Magazine and National Geographic of soldiers dying/fighting in the jungles. The hippie movement was partly a reaction to the Vietnam war. Those were troubled times...

I can't stomach watching the documentary. I watched Ken Burn's Civil War documentary and had nightmares for weeks! WWII was supposed to be the "war to end all wars" and then, less than 20 years later, the US was at war in Korea and then Vietnam, where most of the casualties were young soldiers and villagers. Many of the soldiers who were not killed, who made it home, suffered from PTSD, got into drugs and became homeless. It seems the US government has no trouble sending people off to die, but if they survive they're on their own. Even today the soldiers sent off to the Middle East to fight don't have the resources to deal with their mental health issues.

War is hell and always will be. Past wars have not made us reluctant to start new wars. Our current president seems eager to drop a bomb on North Korea. Then what? Will THAT be the end? Whose next? When will it stop? War is big business, and as long as $$$ is involved, wars will continue till we're all dead.

Have a nice day, LOL.

As a kid in the 1960's I remember we had a map of Vietnam hanging in our kitchen. Every morning at breakfast the radio would be on and any reports of the war we could track on the map. Stopping communism was very important at the time and the feeling was that it was better to stop it over there than to wait and have to stop it here.

It was odd to see the hippies advocating love and peace and then something like Kent State happen. It seemed like a weird, dark time with protests and songs written, and an underlying fear. I remember listening to Christmas carols on the radio year after year on Christmas Eve and between songs there being mention that "perhaps next year our boys will be home for Christmas."

As the 1970's began my 18th birthday inched closer. Having seen all of this unfold in my lifetime I had no desire to be drafted. Fortunately the war ended a year or two before my 18th birthday. There was still a requirement to register for the draft though. My best friend who was a year older then me registered and received a draft card. I remember heading off to BYU and then hearing that the requirement to register for the draft would end about a month after my 18th birthday. My BYU roommate advised me to "screw it" when it came time to register (with a month to go before the registration ended). His advice was good...I didn't bother to register. Never heard or received anything concerning it. Whew!!!

During my adult years I have met several people who served in Vietnam. Each person seemed just a little bit off...a little screwed up in the head. Glad that wasn't me.

The requirement to register for the draft still exists.

Selective Service System > Registration > Why Register
https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Why-Register
Virtually all male U.S. citizens, regardless of where they live, and male immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, residing in the United States, who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service. The law says men must register with Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday.


Neither of my boys did, and they are now 32 & 28. Sort of weird that the requirement is still there, but no effort to enforce it exists.

According to Wikipedia, they get you if and when you try to get a federal government job or receive a federal government service,,,

Yes, draft registration was reinstated by Pres. Carter in 1980.

Mr. Carter reinstated registration for the draft as a way for the U.S. to "look tough" in response to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. This of course was after he had doubled down on Mr. Ford's blanket pardon of the Viet Nam era draft dodgers. Of course, the irony of the situation was lost upon him.

I won't go into the later history of Russian and U.S. involvement in Afghanistan.

When the prophet speaks, we'd think it was 'for the ages' rather than only for the moment...

When they were mostly silent about VN, it was a great disappointment for me, & others I suspect.

It seems to fit that GAs are afraid speak on many important items because they're afraid to be shown 'proven' wrong just around the corner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2017 11:11PM by GNPE.

Actually they said if the war was wrong, the leaders would be judged. Those who were drafted should go-unless they got out of it by going on a mission of course.Talk about wishy washy. It bothered me that individuals should just go even if they felt the war was immoral. Sounds like a lesser version of the Nuremberg defense. Dont worry about your conscience. Do as you are told. You wont be judged.Besides, God's true prophet should know if God supported the war or thought it was just.

I love Ken Burns's . I love his Jazz the best. I love jazz. I just brought his WW2. That was very good too. We are watching the Vietnam one too. That was the era I grew up. My dad was there in 64, he was one of the first ones there, since he was in Okinawa at the time. I remembered that I couldn't pronounce either place.
I didn't know they were wars ( I was a dumb kid for an Army brat)
A lot of kids in my class had fathers there when I got older,
I was lucky, mine came back. When I was in 2nd grade I started understanding what was going on
The summer before I went to kindergarten, we picked my grandma up from the train station to stay with us for the summer .
It wasn't that crowded and I knew people were going all over on the buses. The lady behind the counter gave me a lollipop and was talking to me a little bit, so I lost my shyness and asked how much tickets were to Vietnam ( I couldn't pronounce it right even)
I told her I wanted to see my daddy. I don't remember it, my mom keeps teasing me about it, and how I embarrassed her by laying on the floor crying and kicking my feet, showing everyone my underwear; that stopped me fast. That was back in the day when little girls wore dresses all the time.
I do remember when he came home in a taxi cab though ( to surprise my mom)

Hubby and I were flipping through the TV and came upon an ACM award show where they played a bit of Glen Campbell. Galveston. I was six when he was there and I have a very hazy TV version of the whole thing. I have tried to watch parts of this new series because I really don't understand it and it as something that had a great impact on Hubby and, I do believe the old adage about those that don't learn/forget, are doomed to repeat. I can only take it in small doses.

The man who wrote this book is now a Mormon bishop.

https://www.amazon.com/Sgt-Rock-Last-Warrior-Standing/dp/0983148902

1969. I had a decent assignment as radio operator. Since my last name begins with "C," I was "Radio Operator C----," which was also "Romeo Oscar Charlie," and became shortened to "ROCk."

This pompous ass of a platoon sergeant insisted upon being called "Sgt. Rock." Yeah, he really did, in-country! One time he picked up the handset when somebody was calling "Rock" (me). He answered, "Yeah, Rock here," and was LIVID when he learned it wasn't for him--there could not be two "Rocks!"

Back to rifleman for Yours Truly.

A while after that, we were told to lock and load for a "hot LZ" (landing zone under fire). And whatdyaknow, "Sgt. Rock's" jungle rot (chronic blister infection we all suffered from) suddenly became incapacitating--and he got himself "medivaced" out!!

I left that fire base on my back with three bullet holes. I hope I never meet "Sgt. Rock." (Couldn't be the one in the book, I was a Marine.) I'll flatten his face. Hopefully, his name is on that wall in Washington.

More U.S. arrogance, stupidity...

This should be Required Viewing, for Everyone; politicians first.

The more episodes I watch, the more I realize what a horrible thing that war was....and for what? I agree with you GNPE....this should be required viewing, though it is very hard for me to do so.

Tonite (Wednesday) ... 1966.... rich getting draft deferments for their children; leaders either not asking the appropriate questions / not wanting the connect the dots, particularity about the determination of the North Vietnamese.

LBJ portrayed is seeking but frustrated in wanting to end U.S. (& N.V.N. civilian) casualties

I'm old enough to have actually participated in anti-war protests.

I couldn't understand why we were over there. Why a boy I dated a few times ended up dying over there.

Yes, I'm angry about the war.

But -- for the first time, Ken Burn's series is helping me to understand why people like Johnson and McNamara sent our boys into that place. I do NOT agree with their logic, but at least I can understand how they were thinking for the first time.

It is good to know that even Johnson had doubts about the war, and that he felt bad about sending boys into battle over there. For many years, I thought he was an un-feeling idiot.

We should NEVER have been over there!

On the other hand, we should never have treated the boys who came home as cruelly as we did. They were not the problem. The whole situation they were sent into was the problem. Harassing them, and calling them all baby killers and stuff was NOT right either.

I'm learning alot that I did not know, looking at this series.

Isn't the role of prophets in the Bible to speak hard words to
power? Of course, the Mormon version of a "prophet" is someone
who has power and ignores what others say to him while trying to
ingratiate himself with political leaders.

I too cannot watch it the Vietnam series since I lived it My brother narrowly missed being drafted because he had a pin in his leg from a car accident when he was 15. When he got the draft notice my mother and I both cried. My mother had said that when they told her she had a boy, her first thought was, "oh no, he will have to go to war." My parents were not gung-ho war supporters.

My boyfriend whom I thought I would marry was a draft resister. He missed a semester of grad school and got his notice. I went with him to the draft board and sat there all day scared tp death while he refused to take the oath. They let him go home but a few weeks later FBI men busted in very early in the morning, dragged us out of bed and took him away as I screamed. I called a friend and we eventually bailed him out, but a court date was set.

I did not know it at the time but I was pregnant When I finally told him he broke up with me, saying he had a new girlfriend I did not know about, did not love me anymore, and my expecting our child made no difference. I was crushed. He was my first love. I fell into the system and was talked into giving my son up for adoption as I had no husband and no means of support, plus post partum depression. I did not care if I lived or died.

Years later I found out that my ex eventually went to a federal jail for a year or so and also had to do community service. He was in pre-med at the time and did it at a hospital. He married his new girlfriend but she later divorced him. Many years later I reunited with my surrendered son. That is all good now, but it was many years of pain and regret.

I went on to continue to protest the war until it ended, and married my present husband who escaped the draft with a defense job at Bell Labs. We had three more sons. At one DC demonstration I ran from tear gas with everyone else.

That period of my life was traumatic for me personally and for the country, looking back on it now is too hard, especially as current events make me wonder if we have moved forward or backwards, also if we have learned anything at all. I've gone to some recent protests against the poisonous current administration, and for immigrant rights, but is so sad for me as an old grandma to still be doing this. I fear for my grandchildren as my mom once feared for my brother. "When will we ever learn?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2017 02:16PM by Jersey Girl.

My brother signed up for ROTC as a better alternative to being drafted. He had excellent computer programming skills for the time (in addition to being a civil engineer,) so his skills kept him far from the war zone. Honestly, if he had been killed, or severely injured, I don't know what would have become of me after my father died. He was the one who came home to take care of me. There was no one else.

I'll never forget the day when he was going through items in our family's home, packing up after dad's death. He came across a ceremonial sword that had been given to him at his ROTC graduation. He destroyed it.

He said that all of his friends made different decisions regarding their war involvement, that they all knew they had horrible choices to make, and that they respected each other's decisions. A good friend of his left the country for Australia (which was perfectly happy to accept a MIT-trained engineer for citizenship.) They are still good friends, and still travel together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2017 07:41PM by summer.

I watched just a tiny bit of it.

I thought it was absolutely fascinating to see the actual political and cultural mechanisms that had been in play laid out and defined with so much clarity, as opposed to the hazy completely superficial and phony and contrived MORmON style explanations that I had been subjected to in my upbringing in a MORmON household.

I would like to see more of the Burns Viet Nam documentary.

Robert S. McNamara's memoirs on the Viet Nam war came out in 1998. McNamara basically admits / concedes that the Viet Nam war was a political misunderstanding /mistake more than anything else. I know enough to know that was NOT what LDS Inc leaders were saying about it at the time when it was going on in the 1960's, Not because of a MORmON style burning bosom but because I was alive at the time.

I got the Tapes of McNamara's Book. I intentionally took them on a trip with my parents SPECIFICALLY so that there would be somethings besides the agonizing intolerable PRO MORmON Garbage that my MORmON parents would want to listen to. After listening to the one McNamara tape for a while, my super ass hole MORmON male parent quipped that the Viet Nam war really was a political contrivance of Kennedy and Johnson.

I told my MORmON male parent that was a great observation ....based on over 30 year old 20 /20 hindsight. I then followed up by inquiring about where the Hell his (supposedly) prophetic MORmON leaders of the time were at the time when such insight could have been really useful and beneficial.

Capt Asshole the resident MORmON enforcement agent flew into one of his typical MORmON rage fits over my question, because once again his lame ass dead wood MORmON religion had been exposed as a laughable utter fraud, and because any his criticism of his "THE" (MORmON) church HOWEVER FACTUAL or ACCURATE is NOT allowed and the privilege of being offended is exclusively reserved for MORmON ass holes like him. Not too long after that came the suggestion that I deserved the Laban treatment.

"
Robert S. McNamara's memoirs on the Viet Nam war came out in 1998. McNamara basically admits / concedes that the Viet Nam war was a political misunderstanding /mistake more than anything else."

It was a mistake. It became a tragedy when it was obvious to our political leaders, especially Johnson, that we were in a losing situation. Instead of figuring out an exit strategy, they lied to America about casualties and progress (or lack of). They severely underestimated the NVA and continued to do so. They drafted American kids as cannon fodder just so Johnson wouldn't lose a war. In my mind, Johnson, McNamara and other politicians that hid the truth from the public, and killed tens of thousands of American soldiers and civilians-are war criminals. I thought we learned our lesson-until GW Bush was told by God to get us in a quagmire in the Middle East.

why would LBJ bother with an exit strategy from Viet Nam when his actual intent was to get deeply immersed in the war so he could profit from it ? At his death the value of LBJ's personal estate was over 300 million dollars. that is quite an accomplishment on the salary of Senator and then President.

JFK had signed an executive order that prepared for the U.S. withdrawal from Viet Nam. The day after JFK was assassinate, LBJ signed an executive order reversing the order that JFK had issued. The reversal order that LBJ signed was drafted two days BEFORE JFK was killed.

You're correct. Johnson made a fortune from Bell Helicopter, Brown and Root and Halliburton. Funny how Texas Presidents like LBJ and GW Bush manged to get rich from Halliburton by getting us into unnecessary wars. Kids lives be damned.

just one month ago, in my SO's family, a family member veteran of the war in Afghanistan committed suicide as a direct result of PTSD and the shattered post combat life that he had been attempting to cope with for the last several years. He had been ordinance disposal. He had been home for several years but just could not keep himself together. He ended up deeply mired in addiction. To his family's credit, there were some good faith efforts made to try to help him. They knew he was suicidal, so they had all of the guns locked up. He managed to get a flare gun. He shot himself in the head with it. It was horrible. That was his chosen exit from his life. He left behind a 9 year old son.

How in the world did a mission exempt you from the draft? A legitimate path like going to college didn't.

wyodan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How in the world did a mission exempt you from the
> draft? A legitimate path like going to college
> didn't.


4D exemption, for ministers, which missionaries qualified for. The whole point of the church getting me into the Y was so I would then qualify for the 2S exemption, which was only good until your 23rd birthday. At which point I was ordered to attend a draft physical, where I was USDA graded 1A, and received my draft notice. But the draft lottery saved my grade A butt. My number was 365.

What fascinates me is that liberals think government works well for providing us social programs but doesn't work well for war.

Conservatives think government is great for war, but incompetent for social programs.

Turns out, government is pretty much a complete scam.

People are easily manipulated. Likely many against the war in Vietnam thought we were justified in going to Iraq because of 9/11. No connection to Iraq, and the motivation behind 9/11 was our decade of bombing, and at least 500,000 dead Iraqi kids resulting from our sanctions.

We just can't leave things alone, because of course, we are th good guys.

Nothing will change. We are indoctrinated in our government schools that we are to look to government to solve all our problems and to keep the world safe and to provide for our every need.

More thoughts. While most will blame the leaders, I would include member of the military.

20 years ago I concluded our military was being misused and causing problems around the world, so I bailed, despite being a Major at 9 years service, on track to likely retire as Colonel. Besides nice salary and benefits, gave up a million or two in retirement. Took a job in a warehouse for $8 an hour.

Anyway, what I saw mostly in the military was people gunning for rank or power or benefits or money, just like our so-called leaders. Military members take an oath to the Constitution, which attempts to limit war by requiring a declaration by congress. The founders like Jefferson and Madison discussed how to limit the "dog of war".

The Constitution is also supposed to place limits on spending, which would also limit our ability to wage war. But since we ignored the Constitution and created the Federal Reserve, we just have as much money as we want printed out of thin air, and then we all get to pay the inflation tax.

If military members were actually interested in the Constitution, or in actually fighting for our freedoms, they would not tolerate the stupidity in which we get involved.

Not to mention the public who are supporting the whole thing with their mindless tribalism.

But then, again, we are all "educated" by the government. And if you question the indoctrination system, you are considered a nutcase.

Nothing will change, since less than 5% of the country knows what is going on.

My older brother served in Vietnam and came home. The war was a waste.