The Baker–Fancher parties beg to differ.

As an addendum to your statement, I heard a conservative talk show host ask this morning: "How many church-going people have gone out and committed mass murder?"


You know what my immediate thought was.....

The national news outlets are starting to add the word "modern" to their headlines, I guess to exclude Mountain Meadow

I doubt they are saying "modern" to exclude MMM*, rather I think it's because of the many US Army massacres of Natives American civilians...


*How many modern journalists have read up on the MMM?

Yes, this ridiculous disclaimer of, modern, is meant to skirt some particularly awful mass shootings. Having been raised in Texas I would mention the Goliad massacre. And more recently than that my boyhood neighbor in Tulsa Oklahoma has a mass murder even more heinous than Goliad.

I don't mean to distract from how awful this was. It is just that when we wash our history of horrible things we tend to breed horrible things.

The reporters I've heard have been saying "worst in modern US history".

But you make a point. A not well known tragedy in fairly recent history.

All news reports coming in on cable are saying in "recent US history."

I noticed that, either recent or modern, which is a change from earlier this morning. The news must have gotten to them. Ironically KSL radio just did a live broadcast and referred to it as the "worst in American history". If anyone should know better it is them.

They may be referring to the dealing out of mass death by one 'shooter'.

They'd have to make it that exclusive because there have been humans who dealt out a big number of deaths, but one at a time and not involving a gun.

Heck, there have even been government sponsored 'events' that caused more deaths...

"Death...It isn't if, it's how and when; and it should never be popularized."
- - Sir Judic West, Lord Mayor of Humps-on-Wyyvyrn, Wiltshire

I called the Michael Medved radio show as *soon* as he said he said it was the "worst in US history" just to set the record straight, mentioning the MMM beside the obvious army killings. whether he will acknowledge it I don't know.

Just want to point out that this guy isnt Muslim.

Nor Latino.

Yup. Exactly.

Yes Bona Dea, so we don't need to voice opposition to religious ideals . . . .


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-egypt-rights/egypt-hunting-down-gays-conducting-forced-anal-exams-amnesty-idUSKCN1C50D3



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2017 06:20PM by thingsithink.

In terms of dead, yes less dead.

In terms of total dead and wounded.....way more.

In terms of a lone gun man...way more than any previous.

Timothy McVeigh killed far more in Oklahoma City. I'm not sure if the distinction of being shot or blown up matters to the victims.

It doesnt ,but the issue for me is the easy access to guns.Blowing up buildings is much less common. We have so many mass shootings it is hard to keep track

Well here is your freedom you wanted bona dea. Free to get guns and probably was part of a group that brainwashed him. You dont shoot hundreds of people for the hell of it. What a tragedy.

I defintely dont want lunatics to have access to guns-especially semimautomatic ones.We need some sensible gun laws and I have thought that JFK was killed, but the NRA has Congress in its pockets.I am not advocating banning all guns, but our laws are insane.I have no idea why you think I consider this freedom. I do not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2017 07:35PM by bona dea.

I shouldnt be attacking you this is a horrible tragedy. I finally saw some video footage of it. This is a bad one for sure.

Especially since I am pro gun control. I am a teacher. How many school shootings have there been? I am tired of a mass shooting every few weeks and having to worry about going to work, the movies, a concert or the mall.

One of the most amazing lessons we learn from the MMM is a reminder of the peculiar fruits and blessings that come from following the counsel of our local leaders. Whenever a local leader counsels me to do something I am reminded of the MMM and the amazing doctrine of obedience and it's fruits. Now before you point fingers at me I hope you will remember that I am just trying to honestly present the unforgettable eternally unchangeable doctrines in Mormonism that we got from Brigham Young and other wondrous leaders in LDS church history. Of course these doctrines could not possibly change or else honest people would start having Doubts and we certainly can't have that happen. I suppose I could try to present the dishonest TBM approach used by Daniel C. Peterson and others but then I would personally expect to get a 2Ne 9:34 reward of fire and brimstone for eternity so all my apologist efforts would be for naught. Thus I got to approach all subjects with sincere honesty as that is the only acceptable way to do apologetics. Also if I do it the DCP way then people would think TBM's are liars and it could hurt the missionary work efforts to try to convince the world that the Church is true, I.e. Honest, transparent, and full of unquestionable integrity.

When you read what I write and think "gosh that makes so much sense about this super honest and true Church being so loving and respectful of the rights of all people, such as the Fanchers, then you might start seriously begin to investigate whether or not the Church is true, I.e. Honest beyond any doubt and super transparent and forthright :)

Why are you still here?

He/she's joking Adam.

I know he/she has been my nemesis since january.

Well if you don't believe the Church is the most honest and truthful organization out there then please ignore me completely :) I understand that you have been in a lot of pain. My guess is that probably a lot of it came from you being involved in some organization that was not only not completely truthful to you but tried to make you feel bad for trying to ask honest questions. If that's the case then you ought to shout the name of such an evil organization out loud at the top of your lungs.

I personally can question whether or not every single organization, with one exception, on the planet has been completely honest or not with me and anyone else. That one exception is a very peculiar one based on some conditioning I've received in my life to be well-correlated to obey the organization's leadership without questioning. They say that they are a true organization so I guess if they say so then I guess that's the way it is. Because why would anyone purposely deceive anyone else for the sake of power, money, and ambition?

I read one sentence and then i am done.

Me, too, badass. It (the poster) misses being a proselytizing bishop preying on the weak. Nauseating stuff for a recovery board.

Maybe I'll go find a support board for other types of wounded people, say the raped, and start posting a rapist's "honest" point of view. Making "funny" statements on other peoples' threads about how she should have "fought harder" if she "didn't really want it," things like that.

Ever notice how "Honest TBM" never addresses an issue on his/her own new thread? That's because it's not sarcasm, as sarcasm can stand on its own. What we have here is a parasitic leach, faking parody, hurting people for a little attention, a little base aplomb.

I don't even read the first sentence. I see the name, and know it's someone who misses hurting others in real life. On second thought, this is likely an extention of harm "it" causes in real life. That, or it's completely impotent.

Po' wittle "Honest TBM" doesn't have one ounce of concern for those in pain. Maybe "it" could go to Vegas and start using "Honest NRA" talking points, see if anyone laughs. People DIE because of moism, but it's all fun and games for this bag-o-laughs. People have LOST ENTIRE FAMILIES, but let's twist the knife with a smirk.

What an amoral POS. A single molecule of integrity would demand that the misanthrope stick to his or her own thread, and enjoy whatever small audience "chose" to respond, and stay the hell away from people in pain. The behavior says everything I need to know about "motive." Sadist, not satirist.

Satarists don't butt into serious discussions on issues. No, they have their own comic strip, blog, column or broadcast (like youtube or TV). I don't see them being tolerated for much more than a single line in ANY other venue.

Just offering an authentic, honest point of view here, HTBM. Don't get your pink panties in a twist. Go wash your garments. They stink.

And my response here? I know it feeds a low-life troll, but it needs to be said. Don't respond to me on this thread, badass. I don't want "it" (that effer) to feed on any more of your pain and sorrow. Don't respond to that cowardly POS anymore, not brave enough to go it alone on its own thread. If you want, please feel free to respond to me in a new thread, and ignore the Honest POS and use the Report button if the scum tries to butt in.

All this "bad-mouthing" of another poster? There IS NO REAL "honest tbm," posting here, correct? It purports to be a fictional character. That's the basis of satire. Of course, were Donald Trump, himself, posting on this board, and identifying as such, we would not be allowed to abuse him.

There is nothing "funny" about "honest mo" lessons in serious threads.

All of those who enjoy it - stick your hand in a fire, get some real, third degree burns, and see how long it takes you to laugh about it. This board was meant to help the newly wounded, not confuse or make fun of them.

Or, would anyone rather argue that emotional abuse is not "real" abuse?

HTBM's posts harm the newly wounded, the most vulnerable. We've all seen it. "Popularity" among a few old-timers does not make it right, though their "votes" seem to weigh more. (We know how that goes from HTBMs preaching, or, somewhere else we fled, hard to tell.)

This is one point on which I will stand. I'm incapable of watching people bleed and trying to get a kick out of it.

I hope you are being serious and not another parody poster. I too think honest TBM really is a true believer but just acts sarcastic about it to twist the knife deeper. It would not surprise me if they were still active and followed the church closely in the least.

Totally serious, badass. I suspect it's a regular poster who doesn't get enough attention, so preaches. Tries to call it sarcasm, but it's only a replay of a bad show everyone has heard, and many on this board have to live with. It must be like smelling vomit for those who suffer, hearing it non-stop in their own homes.

The "Honest Prick" is just making sure they can find no reprieve here, either.

Just so you know I'm serious, if you've ever read Steve Benson's posts, they drip with sarcasm. Well done sarcasm. He can irritate the shit out of me, but I have to give him props for how he can cut an issue to the bone with a single sentence.

All the bumbling "Honest Prick" above has is the butterknife of aping moism, and leaves a hacked mess for others to deal with.

Hey I am just trying to show what the answer that a TBM would give if they were trying to be honest. If you think what I write is good common sense then maybe you should be a TBM too. If you think that what I write is total baloney and that it has zero credibility then of course the Church is a fraud.

However it is not possible for a TBM to consider that the Church could be a fraud because of being way too busy being obedient to the Brethren makes it impossible to really think that much. And besides we got the glorious mind conditioning programs.

Ok maybe I should shut up and stop giving the Honest TBM answers. Instead you should go get the Dishonest TBM answers from the people like DCP, Fair LDS, and others who try to be apologists but don't fully support all the wondrous legacy of teachings we got from the early Brethren like Brigham Young. If only they got to do the explaining from the TBM point of view then I think people could be conditioned to be dishonest. Thus I give the Honest TBM perspective so you can decide for yourself whether or not it's credible or irrational idiocy.

This might have been a sincere post but i am still not convinced.

Leave badassadam alone you crazy piece of shit!

I think Honest TBM is a big bunch of facetiousness. Like they say, they, (Honest TBM), are trying to point out the Mormon side of an issue. I have seen thru HTBM since I first read them here. NOBODY can be that blind to read all there is here and cling to the iron rod of Moronism?

HTBM is a troll trying to piss people off. It pisses me off just saying the shit it does. I hope everyone here on RfM who, as a collective consciousness, sincerely already believes TSCC IS a fraud?

I really do not appreciate HTBM's smart-aleck diatribe on shit I don't want to think about anymore. It is like IT has a right to shove this crap down our throats. I do not appreciate IT's attempt to try and make me think what I am doing is wrong?

This is how i battled HTBM before you came on here. The last thing i wanted to read was that robotic nonsense when i first got on here. They act like its a joke so they dont get kicked off the board. Nobody that leaves the church even would pretend to talk this way not even for a second.

There are some evil (or deluded) people who call themselves TBM's who think its ok to be dishonest about Church history. I call them the Dishonest TBM's. And yes I'm at a war of words with them because the world deserves to have the Mormonism story told with complete honesty. That way investigators/members can make honest decisions in their lives. So why I post is because I desire to expose them for their dishonesty about Church history/doctrines.

Honest TBM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are some evil (or deluded) people who call
> themselves TBM's who think its ok to be dishonest
> about Church history. I call them the Dishonest
> TBM's. And yes I'm at a war of words with them
> because the world deserves to have the Mormonism
> story told with complete honesty. That way
> investigators/members can make honest decisions in
> their lives. So why I post is because I desire to
> expose them for their dishonesty about Church
> history/doctrines.

Then WHY don't you address the issues instead of pissing off folks here? I personally take great umbrage at the stuff you are so flippant about. You want "to expose them for their dishonesty about church history/doctrines?" Then say something we can all agree on here.

I have heard a life time's worth of church history/doctrines I never knew to even ASK about. Up to the top of my head and a foot above it. I do not appreciate someone being so flippant about things that are EXTREMELY hurtful to me. I wasted 40 years of my life I can't get back believing in crap you make a joke out of? I don't get your sarcasm or point of view?

honest TBM is an oxymoron.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2017 02:36PM by steve benson.

Jesus sometimes i dont really want to know all of the details of mountain meadows.

^ this ^

As to HTBM, I feel sorry for him/her in that they are truly duped and continually, in each post, speaks of this 'honest, transparent,blah, blah, blah church. Yeah, what about their finances? I dpn't consider HTBM to be real intelligent since, with access to all the information on this board, he/she continues to post total BS regarding tscc.

HTBM has been playing the same note since i first got on here 7 months ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2017 02:28PM by badassadam.

True story, when my kids were about 3 and a half and five years old they were sitting on the couch and one said to the other, "you dummy" to which the other replied, "you stupid", to which the first added, "you names", to which the other responded, "don't call me names". What does this have to do with this thread? Maybe nothing.

I loved it! "Mom, he called me 'names'!"

You ever hear the phrase, "Take what you like and leave the rest?"

Nobody's forced to read anybody's posts here. So if you don't like em, don't read em. But don't try to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't write in trying to express him/herself.

One of the most important lessons I've been working on in my life is that it's important for me to not have to have someone else doing what I think they should be doing for me to be all right.

My all-rightness is up to the choices I make, including who and what I read and take in to myself, argue with, or whatever. What I spend my time on. Takes all kinds of flavors to make the world. You ever walk through a mall and think, "Someone got paid to make that XXX, and it's in this store because someone thinks someone will pay money to buy it!!" Something you wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. And no doubt, vice-versa!!

If you don't like the way someone expresses their opinion, don't read it. Each of us has a flavor and viewpoints, right?

by a single shooter.