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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 08:46AM

My wife's sister and her husband are getting sealed in December. They've been married for seven years (second marriage for both), and are just getting around to being sealed together.

My wife asked if I wanted to go to the temple for their sealing.

I asked, "And what would be the extent of my involvement if I did."

My wife stated, very matter-of-factly, "You can sit in the lobby."

There was no malice or joking in her statement, just a presumption that I, as non-member, would be perfectly content attending this sacred event from the lobby and out of sight of the ceremony itself.

Mind you, I really have no desire at all in attending, or even the slightest care about whether my sister- and brother-in-law are getting sealed though they have already been married for seven years.

It's just that I've been invited to the ceremony with full knowledge that I'm never going to get any further than the lobby. Why bother? "Hey guys, just tell me where the food will be served, and I'll meet you there."

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 08:50AM

Sitting in a lobby is not the same as attending an event. Your relatives don't think this is rude because it's church policy. Well, that means it's doubly rude as I see it.

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Posted by: SEcular Priest ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 09:06AM

See my posting about Mormon Temple Protocol I posted several days ago. The Electonic stuff will get you a Temple President interview. Just go, sit and reflect why you are unworthy to enter God's house. They do have scriptures for you to read plus Church magazines. It is a good time to reflect on families are forever and it sucks.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:01PM

I was originally thinking that I could just enjoy some quiet time while surfing the net or reading an ebook. But when I read your post about no electronic devices I decided that the closest I was going to get to the lobby was when I dropped my wife off at the door.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 09:13AM

Please feel free to sit in the lobby. But, don't forget to bring a gift. Dicks.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:32PM

One thing to wish them well in marriage, but this is strictly a religious formality at this point, one of a religion you don't follow, and never did, yet they are expecting you to sit outside while they do their thing inside? So I would ask my wife if we could just skip such a thing completely. Is the GregS's wife TBM? Don't get why they'd go at all. Is there a coffee shop with WiFi near the McTemple?

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:50PM

Yes, my wife is Mormon. I used to refer to her as "my TBM wife", but she's become a little inactive in recent months.

She's been trying to rally lately because her TR has expired and she wants to renew it for her sister's sealing. The sister doesn't know that my wife has only been to church maybe two or three times in at least six months.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 07:03PM

numbersRus Wrote:
> One thing to wish them well in marriage, but this
> is strictly a religious formality at this point,
> one of a religion you don't follow, and never did,

and from which you are being specifically excluded. I've
attended weddings in settings of religions I don't follow and
never did. But I was invited and welcome to attend. Why show up
for an event that you are being explicitly excluded from?

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Posted by: Anon!!! ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 04:35PM

You give dicks for wedding presents? Dick!

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Posted by: Reasons ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 09:43AM

'Scuse me, but there is inherent malice. Just because members refuse to own the malice, doesn't mean they don't support it, or that it's not there.

It's not a wedding; it's a religious ceremony of a religion in which you no longer participate. I would treat it as such. Your attendance would be support of the malicious behavior of LDS, as propagated by the members.

There is no malice in not attending an event to which you are not invited. I guess we could say that you were out-vited, akin to the relationship between weddings and sealings.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 10:09AM

I would agree that there was an inherent malice in the statement, but I would say that it was unintentional in my wife's case. She has previously voiced things that would be perfectly acceptable to Mormons, but never stopped to think about what it was that she was actually saying. It's more conditioned than considered.

More to your point...I'm nevermo; so it's not even a matter of me no longer participating, but had never participated. I've never had a temple recommend, and have never even initiated anything that would eventually lead to one that would be a year out at the earliest.

So yes, I have been callously invited to quietly sit in a lobby with the other unworthys who may have been invited. My current plan is to drop off my wife at the temple, grab a light meal and a drink (Can I assume I'll have about an hour?), and then pick up my wife to drive two hours to the reception.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 11:18AM

That sounds like a good plan. There is no need for you to sit in the waiting room. It's a private religious ceremony to which you are not invited. Best to make your own fun elsewhere.

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Posted by: Afraid Of Mormons ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 04:24AM

So, your wife's sister and husband haven't been "truly" married, all these years? Have they been living in sin?

>>>There is no malice in not attending an event to which you are not invited.<<<

That makes perfect sense! Also, no gift should be required.

My experiences in the lobby were of babysitting restless children. The lobby is not a kid-friendly or anyone-friendly place. There was a Mormon promotional video droning, and the children were so noisy, that no one could read. It was hot and stuffy, and there weren't enough seats. When the weather was good, I would take the kids I knew on a "nature walk". One wedding, at the Salt Lake temple we went across the street to the McDonald's at the Mall, and I got Hell for that.

We weren't sinners, yet; we were just too young. I was a bridesmaid, for several Mormon friends, and had to buy an expensive dress that I would never wear again, but I wasn't allowed in the wedding. We didn't march down the aisle, or anything. We stood in line for several hours, shaking hands with people. I had to get dressed up, early in the morning, (Why are temple weddings so early?) and stand on the stone steps, in the blazing heat, with the rest of the wedding party. About half of us, usually including a parent, had not even been inside to see the wedding. How phony. Still, the giant, fake door that didn't even open, and the forbidding entryway seemed appropriate. Ugly temple pictures. Each time, the whole thing was like some sort of punishment.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 09:59AM

She's showing you the same benevolence she intends to show you in the hereafter when you'll be relegated to one of the lower kingdoms as she hails from on high her perch in the Celestial Realm.

Practice makes perfect.

Add: she must love you to want you there at all, even if in the lobby whilst you wait.

Just think what a glorious reunion it will be in heaven, with sister looking down on you, er... watching 'over' you from on high.

Sibling rivalry in the eXtreme.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 11:12AM

This reminds me of Cinderella. You (Cinderella) just stay in your place here; meanwhile, we'll have a ball at the ball. We'll tell ya all about it later.

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Posted by: laperla not logged in ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 11:57AM

"we have no chairs available inside."

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Posted by: jane ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:04PM

Hey SIL just calling to let you know the wife and I are going to the movies. Wanna go? Yes? Okay you'll have to sit in the car and wait for us. It will be so special to share this with you!

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:22PM

I like that! I'm already imagining scenarios where I may actually be able to do pull off something like that.

There has even been a recent situation where my wife and I had to make last-minute reservation changes to accommodate SIL/BIL's preferences, and I was tempted to say, "Tough shit. YOU asked ME to make this reservation for YOUR convenience, and you didn't think it necessary to mention this restrictive, pre-existing, and unknown-to-anybody-but-you 'requirement' until we were already there."

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:05PM

they have where they play mormon videos. Do they let you past the front desk to the lobby?

Drop her off and go have coffee or something. When my daughter was going to get married, I had it all figured out. I was going to be at my parents' gravesite instead of anywhere at the temple. Most of my family would have been with me. Very few are active mormon at this time. But she didn't get married. Hallelujah. I told her if she marries this guy she is now dating (again), they both work in Alsska from March to October. I told her to get married at that temple and come home married. She thought that was a good idea.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:24PM

You don't just get to sit in the lobby. You have to be as quiet as a mouse while the men and women walk around you in their white clothing as they whisper amongst themselves.

To them you're the outsider. Bring something to do, like a good book. Not sure whether they allow electronics in with you. Maybe your smart phone?

When I waited in the lobby of one last winter for some family history information that turned out to be non-existant (after someone had sent me there to find it,) waiting in there really drove home how much like a cult it was as the people in charge were acting like they were protecting some really big secret only they had access to.

I was eyed with suspicion because to them I was an outsider only there on business, not temple business.

Man, did that feel strange to be sitting there while people would enter through the revolving doors (several sets of them in fact.) As they were entering, others would be leaving through the same revolving doors. All in street clothing, carrying their little suitcases with them they changed into.

The air inside felt suffocating to me. There was no "light" inside there at all. Only a deep dark heaviness about the place.

Between their whispering and white clothing screamed CULT.

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Posted by: laperla not logged in ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 12:34PM

I don't want to be that person. I want to be loving and inclusive. Unfortunately, that attitude bites me in the behind when it comes to the Mo's.

Givers need to hang out with givers.

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 01:21PM

Any non-mormon reading this thread would be totally bewildered.
"Sealed" Huh
"sit in the lobby" what's wrong with these people?
"Wife wants TR to attend ceremony(without husband)" Way over the top

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 01:55PM

I have felt, more than once since marrying my wife, as Gulliver travelling through the Land of Mormon. It is a place I had no idea existed until five years ago.

Talk about a stranger in a strange land.

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Posted by: weeder ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 02:13PM

Being the designated baby-sitter for about twelve kids -- none of them your own while your own daughter is getting married in the Manti temple.

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Posted by: A nonny nonny ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 02:45PM

You won't be missing anything. They're just going to make vows to the church, not each other. So other than the WTF, seriously? aspect, there's NOOOOO need to be there.

You asked above and I think you should probably have at least an hour. Depends on how booked they are that day and how quickly they usher people through the celestial room. Then when the bride and groom change into their wedding clothes - things they didn't wear during the actual ceremony (most likely, for the woman), most spend time taking pictures outside of the temple. That's the main reason (in my opinion) they want people there: to be in the pictures. It's a weird experience.

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Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 03:00PM

GregS, you've got the picture right, and I think your reserved bad feelings about this are remarkably generous.

It seems to me that this may be a good opportunity to point-out to your wife the obvious snubbing that goes on of those who the church considers 'worthy' of getting a 'recommend' (and is thus allowed to go in for the marriage service), versus those who can't get in, no matter how good a person they are.

When I went to the temple to get married, NONE of our family was permitted to be there with us (just a couple of church-going couples went).

Something else: The wedding itself is such a farce. There I was, in a wedding gown covered by clown cloths (including an ugly green apron), and yet the man who married us had to say legal wording to 'get the job done' legally, and then add a Mormon-doctrine sentence to get the 'eternal marriage' sentence in.

Think of all the billions, plus, of people in the world, but God only cares enough that a few Mormon people married "for time and all eternity)" will make it into his heavenly kingdom (even including the marrying by proxy of people in the temple).

Gag, how I hate this evil set-up, let alone the nonsensical dumbness of it!!!!

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Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 04:05PM

I used to be worry a great deal about how to navigate all this when I first left the church. As it turns out, my brothers have not married yet, so I haven't had to confront it yet. But, it's something I've continued to think about, and I feel differently than I did at first.

When my spouse and I married (not in the temple), our family members were invited to the whole event. They attended and enjoyed themselves. Wonderful, I'm glad they didn't get all huffy about disappointing them by not doing it "the right way."

I'll owe my family members similar respect for their weddings and other special occasions--even if it's unfair that I can't attend the ceremony. Upon leaving the LDS Church, I felt like it was degrading to sit outside as the unworthy relative--maybe it still is--but I don't care about that as much. Now, I'm more at peace, and more confident about my self worth. I really don't care what people think about my Mormon credibility.

I can understand the feeling, because when I first left I had a fear of being treated like the unworthy family member--cast off as all the happy people went into the temple. After over a decade outside the bubble, I don't care as much how people perceive my adherence (or lack thereof) to Mormon practices.

Where does that leave things practically speaking? If they want to have family photos outside the temple, and want me and our family there, then we'll go. I might not sit in the lobby, because that is boring. Maybe someone in the temple party can call when it's all over.

Now what do I say when someone says, "I wish you could have been inside." I'd probably say: "the price was too high" or "I don't." (They can interpret that however they want--I don't care).

Anyway, I think there are ways to navigate these situations without bending over and letting the Mormons hit you on the backside, but also being respectful and not throw a fit. It is still a day for the couple, and that's important to keep in mind.

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Posted by: Leaving ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 04:20PM

In July 2016 I was in the lobby for a family wedding. I took out my smart phone, logged onto RFM and wrote the linked post.,1841807,1841807#msg-1841807

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 21, 2017 03:09PM

Good times!

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: November 21, 2017 05:28PM

Watch a recorded session of whatever it is you're missing from NewNameNoah's YouTube channel.

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Posted by: tig ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 04:43PM

Perhaps invite them on a cruise with you. Except it's not really a cruise. You go on a cruise, the are allowed to wait on the dock until the ship comes back.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 20, 2017 04:49PM

I think this situation is very hard for parents who are excluded from their child's wedding. Heart breaking. I hate reading those.

This "sealing wedding", however, seems more like the equivalent of getting your passport stamped or renewing your driver's license. No one should care that you aren't there. If they did, I would be concerned.

I would go, though, if they are going to have real seals. They can be very entertaining.

I really could never figure out why my siblings wanted everyone in the photo after. It made me feel like a prop. I felt like I was helping them keep their facade polished. I did it once and then.

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Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: November 21, 2017 02:29PM

Because I do not know the dynamic of the relationship I can offer no sage advice.

But my question would be why did she ask at all? Why not just tell you what she was doing and when?

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 21, 2017 03:08PM

Even though my wife has become less active this last year, she still wants to believe the church is true and that I will suddenly see the light if I am exposed to the wonders of the temple lobby. That's my hot take, anyway, borne of experience.

I've learned to not probe too deeply into her motivations, particularly when I know she's eventually going to spontaneously tell me.

A couple years ago she planned a "Nauvoo Vacation" for us during the Nauvoo Pageant. I was happy to go because I was curious to see what the fuss was about and to observe Mormons in their ancestral home. After trying to politely stave off a relentless full-court press from both my wife and a sister missionary in Carthage, I let loose with everything I researched about the church. It wasn't pretty.

My wife admitted afterwards that she had planned the trip because she thought I would be inspired by the pageant and the history surrounding Joseph Smith's "martyrdom". She still occasionally prays that I will eventually "come to an understanding of the truth" and convert. The odds are better that she will eventually leave the church, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 21, 2017 03:17PM

I went back and read two threads regarding your Nauvoo adventure.

I hope we go back to threads like those...

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Posted by: Agnes Broomhead ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 12:19AM

You should contact NewNameNoah and see if he has any spare temple recommends to lend you if you want to see the temple sealing in person rather than in the lobby.

Congratulations on actually visiting Nauvoo; I'm assuming your wife didn't expect you to mosey on down to the south end of town, and visit the CoC-controlled Joseph Smith Museum which also sells book that don't necessarily lionize The Dreamer Of Dreams, and that the graves of Joe, Lucy, and Hyrum are under their care. Maybe also that Christian-run bookstore on Mulholland and the museum down the street run by ex-CoC apostates. As well as just visiting the whole area and realizing the folks of Illinois and Missouri regard Joseph Smith as no more than an annoying pest from their state's past.

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Posted by: +5GregS ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 02:38PM

what sins did they commit that prevented them a temple wedding from the start?

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 02:50PM

Ya know, I don't know. I'm sure my wife told me once, but it didn't really register as anything worth remembering.

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Posted by: +5GregS ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 02:56PM

An element of sarcasm in my question..... i, my other siblings and parents were not allowed to attend/nor invited to the wedding of the youngest sister.

LDS - "families are forever" but you aren't worthy to attend the wedding.

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Posted by: not logged in ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 11:28AM

+5GregS Wrote:
> An element of sarcasm in my question..... i, my
> other siblings and parents were not allowed to
> attend/nor invited to the wedding of the youngest
> sister.
> LDS - "families are forever" but you aren't worthy
> to attend the wedding.

Isn't it changed to "Families CAN be together forever"? Provided that everyone toes the Mormon god's line. But, let's face it, you and I aren't going to be there so they might as well start ignoring us now.

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 04:43PM

A few years ago, one of my TBM sisters called to see if I was going to travel across the country at my expense for one of her daughters temple weddings.

I reminded her that I was no longer a member (she didn't need reminding), so I couldn't attend, and I wasn't interested in waiting in the lobby or outside.

She cheerfully replied "that's Ok, you don't have to wait, you can take care of all the kids while the parent go".

I told her I wasn't interested in babysitting either.

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Posted by: kairos ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 07:06PM

tell them you will get the drinks ready at the bar of your choice!

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: November 22, 2017 08:36PM

Welcome to all my participations in weddings. Lobbies and visitor center, so dehumanizing.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 10:14AM

Well, I caved in and ended up sitting in the lobby after all.

The night before the sealing, my wife dragged me to the mall for two hours of trying on a new suit for me. My objections were, 1) I'm not the one getting sealed, and even if I were I would be wearing something much different during the ceremony; 2) I already have suits that are already better than most suits I've seen worn at other gatherings; and 3) Who's going to care what I wear in the temple lobby. My wife still insisted I get a new suit, and I chose not to die on this hill. She was supposedly concerned that I would be out of place at the restaurant where we were all meeting after the sealing. That was new to me since the original plan was to drive to the home of my SIL/BIL's afterwards...and the restaurant was Olive Garden. Yeah, I was out of place because I was overdressed, even in our party! Oh well.

My wife also told me that the sealing would only take a few minutes since my SIL/BIL were not going through the endowments. She also assured me that I would not be the only one in the waiting room (which still looked an awful lot like a lobby to me)...not that I wouldn't have preferred to be alone. The waiting room was apparently the staging area for the sealing party, and my wife left me to find her sister as soon as we got there. I shook hands with a couple of people I knew and promptly sat down in a corner to read. I soon realized that everybody had their shoes off and were walking around in little footies. WTH!? Where's my wife? What's going on? Do I actually have to change my footwear just to sit in the lobby? I muttered a "Screw it!" to myself and kept my shoes on. A few minutes later a matron reminded everybody that those attending the sealing needed to remove their shoes before she escorted the party into the temple. When everybody had filed out to the temple, I was the only person left sitting in the waiting room/lobby, and I was pretty happy about that because I was in the middle of a good book.

A few minutes later everybody trickled back into the waiting room to retrieve their shoes, and we all drove to Olive Garden five minutes away.

One thing has just struck me: aside from the matron addressing the sealing party, I don't remember hearing anybody (with the exception of my wife, in response to one of my questions) ever referring to the sealing, either in the waiting room or at the restaurant.

The whole lead up to this was all about the solemnity of this sacred ceremony, and in the end it hardly even registered as an anticlimax. I'm left wondering, why were any of us even there?

I could think of a dozen better excuses to have lunch at Olive Garden, and none of them would have required me buying a new suit.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2017 10:18AM by GregS.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:16PM

The thing about choosing to die on the hill is, if you're facing the right direction you can see my house!

Thanks for your very evocative report!

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:46PM

Yes, it's better to go with a friendly view than not.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:51PM

Nice of you to keep the peace and still be yourself. Sounds more like doing a quick errand on your way to eat out. I did have the thought that this whole thing was just an elaborate ruse that your wife came up with just to get you to buy a new suit. ):

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 01:05PM

Yes, there is that. She has been harping on me to buy a couple of new pants for work and some new jeans, which we bought on Friday in addition to the suit. I really hate shopping for clothes, and I believe that you are right about her seizing the opportunity here.

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