Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
OK, this is super-wonky inside baseball stuff (and I may be totally wrong), but I "read it" on another site about a talk given years ago by Russel Nelson where talks about the BoM being in Reformed Egyptian and gives this proof of one language written in another language's script to back it up:
"May I tell you of Doctor Moses Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and Jewish philosophers of the Middle Ages. He died in A.D. 1204. He served as a court physician in Cairo and is one of the most famous figures in the early history of medicine. Hospitals are named after him today. In Cairo he read and pondered the words of earlier Muslim thinkers and wrote his philosophical books in Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet. This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language."
I looked it up and found that (at least the way I understand it) there *was* an Arabic script that could be read as Hebrew, but Hebrew and Arabic share many of the same roots, so naturally they could be "shared"; also, that script was used for hundreds of years until political problems made it all fall into disuse in the 1950's. Anyway, he bases this info' on none other that D.C. Peterson! And, after stating "This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language." he doesn't GIVE any other examples!
Hardly Reformed Egyptian, which has no evidence except what Joe Smith talked about.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng
"May I tell you of Doctor Moses Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and Jewish philosophers of the Middle Ages. He died in A.D. 1204. He served as a court physician in Cairo and is one of the most famous figures in the early history of medicine. Hospitals are named after him today. In Cairo he read and pondered the words of earlier Muslim thinkers and wrote his philosophical books in Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet. This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language."
I looked it up and found that (at least the way I understand it) there *was* an Arabic script that could be read as Hebrew, but Hebrew and Arabic share many of the same roots, so naturally they could be "shared"; also, that script was used for hundreds of years until political problems made it all fall into disuse in the 1950's. Anyway, he bases this info' on none other that D.C. Peterson! And, after stating "This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language." he doesn't GIVE any other examples!
Hardly Reformed Egyptian, which has no evidence except what Joe Smith talked about.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng
There are NO examples of Reformed Egyptian anywhere in the world to this day. It's all BS. Nice try, Nelson. You're reaching ....
Still happens today, it's called transliteration. Commonly used when learning languages that use foreign alphabets.
"Allah" – Arabic word written in English (Roman letters).
"Shalom" – Hebrew word, same
By Nelson's logic, I just wrote in Reformed Arabic and Reformed Hebrew.
BTW, this is the same talk where he admitted the rock in hat translation method, long before the essays.
"Allah" – Arabic word written in English (Roman letters).
"Shalom" – Hebrew word, same
By Nelson's logic, I just wrote in Reformed Arabic and Reformed Hebrew.
BTW, this is the same talk where he admitted the rock in hat translation method, long before the essays.
I hadn't read this talk in a while, and had forgotten another thing about it: he mentions Sami Hanna: "Sister Nelson and I have a close friend and former neighbor, Sami Hanna, who was born in Egypt. He is a scholar with special expertise in Semitic languages. As a linguistic exercise, he translated the Book of Mormon from English into Arabic. The exercise converted him to the divinity of the Book of Mormon."
Turns out Sami quit the whole "mormon thing", but this how FAIRMormon disses the affair:
"Question: Did Elder Russell M. Nelson talk of a friend who translated the Book of Mormon into Arabic?
Table of Contents
Question: Did Elder Russell M. Nelson talk of a friend who translated the Book of Mormon into Arabic?
Elder Nelson had a neighbor named Sami Hanna, who was an Arabic scholar and a member of the Church
At one time Elder Nelson had a neighbor named Sami Hanna, who was an Arabic scholar and a member of the Church. Based on his knowledge of Arabic and his experience translating the Book of Mormon into Arabic, Sami thought there were numerous things in the Book of Mormon text that were consistent with a Semitic original of that book. [1]
Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in talks, but he has never given a talk specifically on Sami
Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in talks, as he has to others of his extensive network of friends who can read Hebrew. But he has never given a talk specifically on Sami. The internet article that circulates under his name was not written by Elder Nelson. [2]
Sami left the Church some time ago and is now some sort of a fundamentalist Christian. He now repudiates his former comments on the Book of Mormon
According to Sami's son, Mark, Sami left the Church some time ago and is now some sort of a fundamentalist Christian. He now repudiates his former comments on the Book of Mormon. [3]
Such a repudiation is not, however, terribly significant. Sami's material on the Book of Mormon was never a part of mainstream LDS scholarship on the subject. It was linguistically naive in a number of important respects. [4]
There is an extensive literature dealing with Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon. A good introductory article is John Tvedtnes, "Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon: A Preliminary Survey," Brigham Young University Studies 11 no. 1 (Autumn 1970), 50–60
Oh, and one more fun thing: Nelson says:
"Because the Book of Mormon is a translation of a modified Hebrew language, it contains many Hebraisms. We might list a few examples because they are so unlike the language that would have been familiar to a young man in rural New York at that time:
Nouns followed by descriptive phrases—such as “altar of stones,” “plates of brass,” “mist of darkness.”
I immediately thought: "Declaration of Independence".... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Turns out Sami quit the whole "mormon thing", but this how FAIRMormon disses the affair:
"Question: Did Elder Russell M. Nelson talk of a friend who translated the Book of Mormon into Arabic?
Table of Contents
Question: Did Elder Russell M. Nelson talk of a friend who translated the Book of Mormon into Arabic?
Elder Nelson had a neighbor named Sami Hanna, who was an Arabic scholar and a member of the Church
At one time Elder Nelson had a neighbor named Sami Hanna, who was an Arabic scholar and a member of the Church. Based on his knowledge of Arabic and his experience translating the Book of Mormon into Arabic, Sami thought there were numerous things in the Book of Mormon text that were consistent with a Semitic original of that book. [1]
Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in talks, but he has never given a talk specifically on Sami
Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in talks, as he has to others of his extensive network of friends who can read Hebrew. But he has never given a talk specifically on Sami. The internet article that circulates under his name was not written by Elder Nelson. [2]
Sami left the Church some time ago and is now some sort of a fundamentalist Christian. He now repudiates his former comments on the Book of Mormon
According to Sami's son, Mark, Sami left the Church some time ago and is now some sort of a fundamentalist Christian. He now repudiates his former comments on the Book of Mormon. [3]
Such a repudiation is not, however, terribly significant. Sami's material on the Book of Mormon was never a part of mainstream LDS scholarship on the subject. It was linguistically naive in a number of important respects. [4]
There is an extensive literature dealing with Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon. A good introductory article is John Tvedtnes, "Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon: A Preliminary Survey," Brigham Young University Studies 11 no. 1 (Autumn 1970), 50–60
Oh, and one more fun thing: Nelson says:
"Because the Book of Mormon is a translation of a modified Hebrew language, it contains many Hebraisms. We might list a few examples because they are so unlike the language that would have been familiar to a young man in rural New York at that time:
Nouns followed by descriptive phrases—such as “altar of stones,” “plates of brass,” “mist of darkness.”
I immediately thought: "Declaration of Independence".... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in
> talks, as he has to others of his extensive
> network of friends who can read Hebrew. But he has
> never given a talk specifically on Sami. The
> internet article that circulates under his name
> was not written by Elder Nelson. [2]
Are they sure about that? Did they ask god with a sincere heart, with real intent?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elder Nelson has alluded to Sami a few times in
> talks, as he has to others of his extensive
> network of friends who can read Hebrew. But he has
> never given a talk specifically on Sami. The
> internet article that circulates under his name
> was not written by Elder Nelson. [2]
Are they sure about that? Did they ask god with a sincere heart, with real intent?
Unless I've missed something, Nelson's story is true.
Maimonides (most familiarly known as the Rambam (an acronym)...
...who was born, lived, and died under Muslim rule, in present-day Spain and in northern Africa...(as physician, philosopher, communal leader, Talmudist, and Halachist), is one of the most important, and among the most prolific, people in Jewish history.
"In his mid-20s, he began authoring numerous volumes on the Mishnah, which he completed around ten years later. His intent was to assist those who could not understand the Mishnah's Hebrew and often cryptic text, and for that reason, THE COMMENTARY WAS WRITTEN IN ARABIC BUT WITH HEBREW LETTERING."
So the LANGUAGE was Arabic, but the characters were Hebrew. (Like writing out Japanese conversation, or Chinese street signs, in English letters.)
I am looking at a photo of one of the Rambam's original pages, and I can phonetically read the Hebrew letters (most of them, anyway), but I can't understand what he is saying because it is in Arabic.
For the most part (although he did, of course, write SOME of his works in Hebrew, using Hebrew characters), he was not writing Hebrew (the language), he was writing Arabic (the language), and to write Arabic, he used Hebrew characters...
...so Nelson is correct.
There is an article on the Chabad website which is easy to understand: "Maimonides: His Life and Works," by David Zaklikowski.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/75991/jewish/Maimonides-His-Life-and-Works
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 02:05AM by Tevai.
Maimonides (most familiarly known as the Rambam (an acronym)...
...who was born, lived, and died under Muslim rule, in present-day Spain and in northern Africa...(as physician, philosopher, communal leader, Talmudist, and Halachist), is one of the most important, and among the most prolific, people in Jewish history.
"In his mid-20s, he began authoring numerous volumes on the Mishnah, which he completed around ten years later. His intent was to assist those who could not understand the Mishnah's Hebrew and often cryptic text, and for that reason, THE COMMENTARY WAS WRITTEN IN ARABIC BUT WITH HEBREW LETTERING."
So the LANGUAGE was Arabic, but the characters were Hebrew. (Like writing out Japanese conversation, or Chinese street signs, in English letters.)
I am looking at a photo of one of the Rambam's original pages, and I can phonetically read the Hebrew letters (most of them, anyway), but I can't understand what he is saying because it is in Arabic.
For the most part (although he did, of course, write SOME of his works in Hebrew, using Hebrew characters), he was not writing Hebrew (the language), he was writing Arabic (the language), and to write Arabic, he used Hebrew characters...
...so Nelson is correct.
There is an article on the Chabad website which is easy to understand: "Maimonides: His Life and Works," by David Zaklikowski.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/75991/jewish/Maimonides-His-Life-and-Works
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 02:05AM by Tevai.
>
> ...so Nelson is correct.
>
Sure, but the tension exists from Nelson's last quoted sentence, "This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language.", which he declares supports Nephi, et alia, writing in reformed magician...
ETA: leading to the OP's point,
>
> Hardly Reformed Egyptian, which has no evidence
> except what Joe Smith talked about.
>
The attempts by mormon scholars to use real evidence to reach false conclusions is wondrous to behold, and their public buys it all because it comforts them. A paucity of bad evidence beats zero evidence when you're really hungering for it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 04:11PM by elderolddog.
> ...so Nelson is correct.
>
Sure, but the tension exists from Nelson's last quoted sentence, "This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language.", which he declares supports Nephi, et alia, writing in reformed magician...
ETA: leading to the OP's point,
>
> Hardly Reformed Egyptian, which has no evidence
> except what Joe Smith talked about.
>
The attempts by mormon scholars to use real evidence to reach false conclusions is wondrous to behold, and their public buys it all because it comforts them. A paucity of bad evidence beats zero evidence when you're really hungering for it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 04:11PM by elderolddog.
Maimonides, Nephi.
How many more examples do you need?
I often use the word "many" when describing two of something. Like, I have many arms. Or, I can't breath because I have a cold and my many nostrils are plugged.
I think you're being a bit picky.
How many more examples do you need?
I often use the word "many" when describing two of something. Like, I have many arms. Or, I can't breath because I have a cold and my many nostrils are plugged.
I think you're being a bit picky.
Or plonky, like an 'over ripe' wine. But definitely no one's cup of tea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian
"Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered"
"Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered"
This is such every-day stuff of languages, that it is more remarkable that Nelson even brought it up in a talk. As long as you have an alphabet (it's a little trickier with a syllabary), you can spell any language using whatever alphabet you're working with. The official language of Pakistan was, until recently, English; the Pakistanis use the Arabic alphabet to write English all the time. Yiddish (German for "Jewish"), which is a mash-up of mostly German, local Central European languages, and Hebrew, is written in the Hebrew alphabet. Vietnamese once used Chinese characters, but now uses the Roman alphabet. When we learn Chinese, we first write it in Roman script. Since time immemorial, cultures have been doing this. Why even bring it up? It certainly does not illustrate anything "proving" the BoM.