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Posted by: nuuvox ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 10:08PM

Do you think "the brethren" actually still believe everything? Or are they "woke" but in too deep? Or are they just power hungry? Personally, I think they're still believers or at the most "woke." I think if they were intentionally deceiving people they would live more extravagant lives.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 10:20PM

Nuuvox brings up a subject that appears with some frequency. A diligent old-timer might remember the name of a thread or two that covered this, and bring it u for Nuuvox's attention, but I certainly can't. This will be hashed over, with the usual variety and range of opinions: Yes, they do; no, they don't; and some "sort of's."

Admins: If you're up to it, find these threads and look for the most articulate and representative of the range of answers, and put them together in a sticky "without endorsing any one in particular."

Nuuvox: If you're game, you might find some of those threads. Possibly. More likely, you'll get distracted with other oldies-but-goodies.

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Posted by: nuuvox ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 10:43PM

I found some threads, thanks.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 11:03PM

As you've probably noticed, there's a continuum between "they TRULY believe" and "they can't possibly believe." If there's a unifying theory, it seems to be along the lines that they are so bonded to the corporate church, with the sticks of negative consequences and the carrots of very generous monetary benefits and status, that it's very unlikely that anybody from GA or up is likely to repudiate TSCC and spill the beans.

BTW, I'm a never-mo, came out of a lesser cult--Christian Science.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 11:05PM

most of all, I think that LDS Inc MORmON leadershit breathUrine are A$$ holes. Any one who is a general Authority ( what a dorky designation / title ! surprised that LD$ inc did n't just call them "know it all" ) is in the MORmON leadershit derby to become a MORmON ASSpostHOLE. ONLY a real A$$ hole would dare to aspire to such a thing. I mean once is person is that much of an abject their ass in your face egotist, why not just go all the way to take the title of Jesus Christ for their self instead of just settling on (merely) Apostle of the lord Jesus CHrist. what a bunch of self impressed loons !!!! regardless of what ever else that they may believe.

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Posted by: unbelievable2 ( )
Date: November 25, 2017 11:58PM

Most of the GA's descend from the JS family line and were socialized to believe from the cradle so it's all they have known. They think their lies are all truthful. It's the core of wickedness. Think of wicker furniture. It's twisted. Wicker is the root word of wickedness. The GA's are not giving up their cult.

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Posted by: Challenger ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 12:07AM

No, I don’t believe they ALL believe. I think a handful of them HOPE it’s true, a handful totally believe, and a handful are fakers and in it for the benefits.

I don’t believe Nelson or Oaks are true believers. I think Eyring, Ballard and Bednar are total believers. The rest are too new to gauge yet.

I still laugh at the charade.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 12:56AM

We do discuss this often here. I don't think all the "brethren" are necessarily the same. Some probably realize it's bogus. They know darn well Jesus isn't exactly showing up at their meetings.

Others might think the ends justify the means. It would be too painful to pull a belief blanket out from the flock, so they keep up the façade.

Others probably genuinely believe. They have so much invested they can't fathom it being anything else.

There are some that like the power and position of it. They are big fish in a small pond and they don't care what kind of pond it is.

There are some who frankly don't seem all that bright. Once you accept that facts don't matter compared to emotions and faith, there is no point questioning what is actually true.

At the level they are, it would be very difficult to come to terms with the fact you are living a folly. The ones who know and perpetuate it are slime, IMO.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 01:16AM

Whether they believe or not, they are playing the role expected of them by millions of people conditioned to believe as little children. You can’t ask these so-called adults to suddenly think for themselves. The best that can be done is to let the new generation “fall away” as the old generation dies off. Fortunately, this seems to be happening.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 09:15PM

My counselor and i talked about this, if the leaders stopped playing the role for the millions of people the result could be disastrous for the followers that have never thought for themselves.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 01:41PM

OMG! They might have to actually learn to think for themselves!
How horrible!



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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 06:36AM

I think every one of them makes a covenant in the temple not to disclose their fraud. Then they make each one sign a NDA that stipulates that the church will financially ruin anybody that intentionally/unintentionally smears the good name of LDS Corp. Remember that everyday they stare at a reminder sign in their offices to "Doubt your doubts" to keep them on the straight and narrow.

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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: November 26, 2017 12:37PM

They know the cult is a fraud, they just love the money, admiration, and control more than their own integrity.

Clearly the 15 are narcissists and devoid of empathy. Have you ever gotten to know a narcissist very well? They are totally driven to get stuff, it doesn't matter who they have to walk over to get it.

The drive never shuts off. Every second matters, every dollar counts. They tolerate you as long as you are servicing them. They only care about you if you are servicing them, every second, every dollar.

You servicing them is more important than feeding or housing your family, aka tithing. Fast offering, aka other people, will help you if you're in need from paying them.

I mean, any fool should figure out in short order that the BofA is fraudulent, and has pictures of false gods, the absolute #1 sin to the God of the OT. As leaders through out the history of the cult, any rational leader would have been exposed to this fraudulent "translation" and made a stand about it.

But $$$$$, power, control, admiration, women and girls married or not, are more important than integrity.

It happens all over the world, people in positions of power riding on the money train. Look at the Chief priests, Scribes and Pharisees. They were presented with the gospel of love and not only fought against it, but crusified it because it threatens their control and money train

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 01:57PM

The truth is on the back burner and the pilot light has bee extinguished.

I would say that once they were awarded the "mantle" of leadership, that the apostles and prophet adopted a mindset of furthering the power of the church singularly. Truth, facts, doctrine are not given consideration anymore as the veracity of the Mormon church as been verified in their minds and there is no reason to consider them any more no matter what information comes to light. They have accepted their challenge.

My family is like this. The Mormon church being the one true restored church is so accepted in their minds that their testimonies are truly teflon coated. No fact can stick. Truth slides to the ground and is trampled on their way to SM.

The apostles are like those people you have a verbal exchange with with who do not listen to your points, but rather stare at your moving lips while they conjure words to counter your erroneous sinful thinking which it must be because it doesn't align with theirs. They aren't interested in information, but in being right. The apostles are always "right." Being mistaken is not possible when you speak for God. Gag me with a spoon.

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Posted by: Justin ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 02:12PM

I can't judge them. I know too many extremely intelligent people who believe in Mormonism to say the General Authorities don't believe it as well. Maybe they've seen people healed or had coincidences occur which they aren't able to explain away. Maybe what was taught them at their mothers' knees sunk in way deep. I can't read their minds or their hearts. They were vetted all of their lives for the roles they have now. Oaks and Nelson were mentioned above as likely non-believers. One was President of BYU and a renowned judge, and the other was a pretty good heart surgeon. They could have turned the brethren down if they really didn't believe it, but they willingly served. Neither of them needed the money -- Oaks had even been mentioned as a possible candidate for the Supreme Court. I expect they have looked at the evidence on balance and believe in the LDS Church, but I sure have no way of seeing into their hearts and minds. What is important is what we think about the LDS Church, not what they think of the LDS Church. I can't find any evidence to support the LDS Church's claims.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 02:44PM

What if it is a process of brainwashing. Like Martin Harris had problems seeing the angel Moroni and golden plates with his spiritual eyes. He had to take another stab at it. Maybe he had to eat a few more mushrooms, smoke a little more wacky tabacy, of fast himself a little more silly. Whatever it was, maybe there is some unannounced “ordinance” that only that level gets that essently ensures that the recipient of it would be able to pass any polygraph and believe in their own mind that they have had some experience that makes them an Apostle...

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Posted by: Leaving ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 03:23PM

Even though they don't flaunt their possessions, the top 15 live comfortable lives, and are treated like rock stars when they enter "the arena." Admitting the truth would be financially risky.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 04:09PM

'Brainwashed Brethren'

For a Mormon punk rock band, they're pretty good.

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Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: November 29, 2017 05:34PM

This is interesting, but without getting in their heads it's impossible to know. I think there are a few archetypes that could help us think/speculate about it:

1. These GA's operate in a world where most of the "serious people" they know are believing Mormons. They just assume, like many of us did, that smarter people than them (Hugh Nibley, Richard Bushman or whoever) have studied these issues and there's nothing to all the criticism. Those critics are just a bunch of people who want to sin anyway.

2. The GA's have been busy on the priesthood treadmill, and don't have time to assimilate all the information needed to affect a change in belief. Of course, all this stuff is pretty simple, but as we know it takes a lot of work to be sure enough to make the jump out--especially if you're from a multi-generational Mormon family going back to Joseph Smith's time.

They have been expected to maintain callings with high time commitments over many years, aspire to and achieve high levels of professional success, and raise large families. There's not much time there to curl up with the Mike Quinn trilogy.

3. No doubt there are some, who have come to understand that the LDS GA thing is a good post career gig that benefits them and their family. Maybe they went in true believers, but now they know the sausage (er lie) factory--but it provides them with financial rewards and excellent social standing. These are the grifters.

4. I think there are yet others, who are firmly convinced that Mormonism is the only correct way of life, and those who say otherwise might as well believe that 2+2 = 5, or that the earth is flat. It's just the way it is in their mind. Any material benefit they receive is just God's way of blessing them to continue "the work."

It may be some combination of such things.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: November 30, 2017 06:39PM

They tell themselves they do - (could/ would [have they lied] they lie?) [well, the LDSink (Living Doubting Stories) tells lies daily through its practices, pamphlets, scriptures, commercialism, missionaries, etc. - so they tell their families/ the world they do... by repeating those (fabricated) [lies]/ stories (ad nauseum), infinitum.

They find, it's a corporation.
They know it's an institution.
They're learning it's a cult/ trap/ catch-22/ make-believe/ a dead end street/ (they are afraid/ think there is no way out.

They don't (even) know jack (moron).
How could they know the truth?
(It's worth repeating)

They MAKE themselves BELIEVE.
They are afraid of themselves.
They make themselves be.
Change is hard - they are soft.


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