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Posted by: sbg ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 04:25PM

He can do what he wants, but I refuse to relearn it. I'm old and stuck in my ways.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 04:31PM

"Joseph Smith Translation" of Matthew 6:14 reads:

"And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-matt/6.html?lang=eng

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 06:52PM


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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 07:00PM

~ so ~ ¿ ~ Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet ? ~


an ~ ¿ ~ the Mormon Church is true then ? ~

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Posted by: Pope on a rope ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:19PM

Who cares what the pope wants?

There are any number of translations made by genuine language scholars. The Bible says what it says, not what the pope--or JS--wants it to say.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:55PM

Leave the Lord's Prayer alone.

And leave the King James version of the Christmas story alone.

Some things just fall more kindly on the ears in their earlier form.

I am a linguist by training. I know how hard it can be to translate something from one language to another, and not only get the meaning of the words right, but give them some grace and style. I deeply respect anyone who does this well.

But some things have been translated enough, and ought to be left in familiar forms that are well-loved and comfortable, like favorite slippers.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 12:24AM

The pope is the boss. he can change the bible on a whim.

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Posted by: Hockeyrat ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 01:44AM

How can he legally change it? Does he want to change the way the bible is translated in print or the way it's recited in Catholic mass?
The Bible is for everyone, all religions.Some aren't going to agree to this. He doesn't have a monopoly on the Bible.
People spoke differently back then, plus its written in a form that sounds good.
Every language changes a little over centuries. That's why Shakespeare is hard to understand to some modern English speakers.Someone else will understand a phrase differently than another might.

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Posted by: notmonotloggedin ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 09:04AM

I know everyone here is exmo, however, the purpose of a Bible translation is to get it as near as possible to the original intent, not to twist words in order to fit doctrine.

Of course, Smith's goal was the latter, he had no regard for the former.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 09:55PM

If you read the article, he said that in Italian and English it it a bad translation. Other languages are more true to the Greek. He is looking for a more accurate translation from the Greek to English and Italian. That is not the same thing as arbitrarily rewriting it to.suit his views.

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Posted by: Pope on a rope ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 01:13AM

Lots of scholars think the English and Italian translations are fine. Those aren't even his native languages. Who gives a $hit what he thinks? Not I...

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 08:43AM

Disagree.I am not good enough in Greek to be able to see the subtle nunuances in the choice of words. I do have enough Greek to know that it is a very nuanced language and is difficult to translate into less nuanced languages such as English. I have studied other languages in more depth and have seen plenty of very bad translations.
Also the NT writers were not native Greek speakers and there are many grammatical errors in their writings. My professors characterized the NT as extremely bad Greek. The authors may have inadvertnetly left the wrong impression due to lack of education in the language
As far as the pope not being a native English or Italian speaker, he does have a command of both language and in order to get as far as he has in the church he has to have studied ancient Greek intensively



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2017 07:31PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: janis ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 01:54AM

When I was in 8th grade choir we sang the Lords Prayer for an Easter Choir presentation. This was at a public school. Nobody thought anything of it in 1968. We sang a beautiful version.

I still find myself singing it once in awhile. It brings back memories of elementary school, and the great choir teacher we had. Everyone loved choir.

I certainly didn't learn that song at the mormon church. We didn't sing beautiful songs like that. We sang songs about pioneers and Utah. Neither of which I could relate to. When they started singing the family songs it was worse. I couldn't do that. I got in trouble for not doing all the lovey dovey hand motions that the song required.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 08:45AM

And of course this didn't bother you.
When my elementary schools did this crap it did indeed bother me.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 06:20PM

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article187938144.html

Heather Estes says her son, fifth-grader Devin Estes, has been bullied at Stanton Elementary in Powell County because he doesn’t believe in God and doesn’t attend a morning religious service at the school. This video shows the morning program where a religious song is played and students recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2017 06:21PM by anybody.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 08:18AM

I'm sorry, I'm having a very hard time finding the will to muster the energy to even care.

I left the Catholic Church a very long time ago. Coincidentally, it was a very long time ago that I stopped caring about anything the Pope said or did.

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Posted by: Backseater ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 09:22AM

When I was a Presbyterian kid in the 1950s our church changed versions of the Lord's Prayer, from "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors," to "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." I don't know if it was denomination-wide or just local. Some people complained that the second version had too many consecutive 'ss' sounds.
And while I'm sure the Pope is a nice guy, I tend to agree with GregS about his relevance in the modern world.

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: December 10, 2017 03:49AM

Huh? As a Presbyterian it was ALWAYS debts and debtors. Indeed, where I live it was the Catholics who used "trespasses"!

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 04:41PM

His relevance is to those who recognize him as head of their church. I am not RC and see this as simply desiring a better translation that reflects doctrine...just as several tra nslations have done.

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Posted by: Hervey Willets ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 11:34PM

"...We Can Find It For Ourselves".

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Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 02:01PM

Years ago when the Jesus Seminar was first founded I attended a couple of their lectures. According to their conclusions, if I recall correctly, they felt that the only part of the prayer that they could attribute as a direct saying of Jesus was, "Our father." But the JS academics thought that was enough to be considered radical as promoting the idea of God as our father was not orthodoxy at the time.

I think too that their interpretation of "lead us not into temptation" was that it came from the later periods of persecution, and the prayer was "lead us not to trials (legal/court prosecution for being Christian) and deliver us from evil (persecution).

Of course, the Jesus Seminar had/has its critics, and I am not going to take sides.

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: December 10, 2017 03:47AM

I am impressed with the Pope for urging the correction! I have always been bothered by the words that turn out to be a mistranslation. Note that the current Catholic English translation has long corrected the error.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: December 12, 2017 09:10PM

Oy Vey: The "anybody" didn't get what Francis really wanted, nor did much of the media.

https://cruxnow.com/news-analysis/2017/12/12/can-give-reporters-break-pope-lords-prayer/

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 13, 2017 12:28AM

Exactly

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 13, 2017 09:19AM

From the article angela posted:
"Instead, he suggested a wider use of the new translation adopted by the French church on Dec. 3, which says, “Do not let us fall into temptation.” Presumably, the idea is that such a formula better captures the idea that when sin occurs, it’s the result of the free will of a human being, not God’s cajoling us into it."

So the pope (and many others) doesn't like the translation that sort of supports the idea that god "lead(s) us into temptation."

But he's OK with the idea that god can control us to keep us from temptation if he wants to (and we ask him).

Either way...it's up to "god."

Don't lead us into it, keep us from it -- either way takes away human will, and puts the onus on "god."

What a ridiculous argument.

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Posted by: StilllAnon ( )
Date: December 12, 2017 09:34PM

Score one for the profit Joseph Smith! You silly exmos must be regretting leaving the church! Ahahahaha!
*sarcasm*

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Posted by: outin76 ( )
Date: December 13, 2017 12:17AM

I'm not Roman Catholic (was raised Anglican); but imo the Pope is an important person for Christianity.

This is because he is the only Christian leader in a position to speak for all Christians, and be heard, in matters which are fundamental to all Christianity such as love, forgiveness, understanding, tolerance and so on.

I don't know but I would not be surprised if his desire for a re-translation of the Lords prayer, comes about because of internal pressure from those within the Vatican, whom the Pope needs to appease in order to maintain his power and influence within the group.
outin76

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: December 13, 2017 05:18AM

outin76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not Roman Catholic (was raised Anglican); but
> imo the Pope is an important person for
> Christianity.
>
> This is because he is the only Christian leader in
> a position to speak for all Christians, and be
> heard, in matters which are fundamental to all
> Christianity such as love, forgiveness,
> understanding, tolerance and so on.
>
> I don't know but I would not be surprised if his
> desire for a re-translation of the Lords prayer,
> comes about because of internal pressure from
> those within the Vatican, whom the Pope needs to
> appease in order to maintain his power and
> influence within the group.
> outin76


Read the link I posted. It has nothing to do with internal pressure within the Holy See

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: December 13, 2017 08:35AM

Everyone else can say it as they see fit.

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