Personally, as a BIC, I think when a cult negatively affects children, youth, teens, YSA... They grow up in disfunction.

I think that people need to go through the various stages of experience, get it out of their system, and move on, ie mature.

Or they just don't mature.

And then this might happen... The same or the opposite.

Controlled people either get trapped repeating the same over and over, because they are familiar with it, or don't know how to responsibly move on,

OR

they crave and do the opposite, possibly to see what they've been missing. Well A didn't work out, so let's see what Z has to offer.

I was born in, and I've had a lot of problems dealing with it. Lots of anger and some mental health issues. Fractured, dysfunctional family. There's no impulse to forgive the Mormon organization. I'd rather see it dismantled.

I'm BIC, I'm going with that one.

Perpetual converts or people who never question the religion they were born into each have different kinds of issues IMO.

It seems that often controlled people get sucked into one religion after another. Maybe it is more for the security and identity of being part of a culture, being given "beliefs" and rituals to repeat over and over, or the security of having a sky-person in charge. They don't know how to move on or choose not to break free.

Remember, Mormons are a minority religion compared to this overall hold religion has on people in general. Religion can be a crutch, or magic feather that people have come to believe they must have. Mormonism is just one subset of the larger pattern of religious hold that humans crave as pattern-seeking, story-telling herd animals. It can also be a vehicle of hope and belonging- in which case I'm convinced the actual beliefs don't matter all that much. A review of world mythology tell us people just want the structured culture, story and answers the religion provides.

I would say the BIC's have it the roughest. They were programmed right out of the gate and learned what what they were taught was an outright lie.

The converts also have it rough because they were lied to and connived into signing up for something that wasn't fully explained, even camouflaged to appear as something else.

But, once you've been programmed, brainwashed, and learned to trust, it's a complete blindside to find out everything you knew is wrong. This will mess up anyone.

Agreed.

Also converts have a prior worldview that allows them to compare the cult to and fall back on once their eyes are open. I have known many converts who got baptized, showed up for a couple of weeks and then disappeared, never to return. Converts usually get involved as adults so leaving is easier than a BIC. BIC's must divorce themselves twice, first the cult and second, the family addiction of religion. BIC have it much harder, IMO.

I just talked to my counselor about this i got the double whammy. First the church and then the family which is probably worse, the family part.

BIC, I think gets it worse because TSCC is all they knew and they grew up in it. But then again, the case varies from people to people because some people, especially where you live. It really all depends on their mentality and emotions.

If you compare BIC to converts who convert into the church with less religious foundation, it can also be just as bad because you don't know people's backgrounds. Every case I have come across where people in this group leave the church after finding out it's a fraud, they tend to be able to distinguish between the biblical God and Jesus and the Mormon God and Jesus very well.

And then you have converts who have had a religious background who convert to the church (with or without children). I would think it would be easier for this group in particular because when they find out the truth about TSCC for what it is, they can reflect on their previous religious foundation prior to joining and see the differences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2017 11:07PM by helenm.

Unless the converts are very young when they join, I would say Mormonism takes a greater toll on those born in the church. If a person has experienced life before Mormonism, he or she has some sort of internal rubric for what is normal in the real world that he or she can measure Mormonism against.

If a person is born 100% without sight, one can never explain the concept of color to that person in a way that he or she will understand. You can talk all day using the very best descriptive words in any language and it's not going to matter. The concept of color cannot be grasped by a person who has never had the gift of sight. One the other hand, if a person has normal vision or even barely just sufficient vision to perceive color and retains that ability through at least three or four years of age, then later totally loses his or her vision, the person would have essentially the same understanding of color that a person with sight would have. one could describe the color of the sky on a given day and the person would be able to create a picture in his or her mind of the sky as described even though he or she no longer possessed the ability to literally see the sky. Having once had the ability to see, the person would retain that prior knowledge of color and frame of reference acquired through once having possessed the sense of sight.

Mormonism is like that in a way. If a person is thoroughly immersed in it at a very early age, some concepts are beyond comprehension to the person. he or she doesn't have knowledge of how the real world operates without the constraints of Mormonism skewing everything a person learns, knows, or believes. It's not even that the person is gullible in not questioning long-held but basically far-fetched beliefs. It's more a matter of the cult's beliefs having been presented to the person since Day #1 as absolute. A person's entire scope of "the way things are" are seen only through the lens of what the LDS church wants its people taught. The very concept of questioning the church's stance on anything is foreign to someone born into a family thoroughly indoctrinated.

Without that earlier pre-Mormon experience -- exposure to the real, rational, non-Mormon world -- the person cannot easily form doubts because the person has no idea how or where to begin questioning or doubting. The LDS teachings and way of life have been presented to the person forever as a series of absolutes. The idea that an angel presented Joseph Smith with a stack of gold plates which were then translated into the "Book of Mormon" ranks right up there with the quadratic formula in veracity and in terms of something a person can count on. Using critical thinking skills to independently review and critique the concepts taught isn't something that will come easily or naturally to the person lucky enough to have been born into the LDS faith.

The LDS Church does a respectable job of mind-fucking everyone they can get to - BICs and converts alike - but they have much, much more power to influence those who fall into their clutches early in life, before knowing anything else and before having any sort of mental standard against which to compare or measure the rhetoric put out by the LDS church. If a person has some knowledge or experience of what it is to lead a normal life before embarking on a path into Mormonism, he or she likely retains at least a shred of mental reality.

Anyone CAN make it out, but a person has a better chance of getting out and staying out if he knew life without Mormonism for long enough to have developed a few normal thought processes and the ability to question.



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So true ^^^. I vote for BIC. I was born into a dysfunctional family, with early Mormon royalty polygamous ancestors. I thought it was great, being related to so many people.

I thought everyone's older siblings beat and tortured them. I thought everyone's parents spanked them. I never rebelled against the idea that children are to be seen and not heard, and that women were second-class citizens.

Thank God I was raised outside the Moridor, and had non-Mormon friends, from nice families. When I became a teen-ager, I could finally choose my own friends (not just restricted to Mormons), and got to know some outstanding people.

We were kept in the dark about the temple, and JS's wives, and the REAL reason for polygamy--just as the converts were. Most converts I knew were as well-versed in the scriptures as the BIC's. The converts knew more about life outside the cult, and certainly had more non-Mormon friends, than the sequestered Mormons had. Also, converts did not have Mormon parents.

My non=Mormon friends stayed my friends after I joined Mormonism. They were a bit puzzled by my decision but they didn't abandon me as their friend. My Mormon friends completely treated me like dirt after I left Mormonism. Since I still had my pre-Mormon friends by my side (none of them had encouraged me to leave Mormonism) I did not feel the huge loss that so many BIC's feel when leaving Mormonism. My family was also fine with me leaving Mormonism. Most of them had not joined anyway but the one's who had joined the Mormon church were fine with me leaving it.

BIC by a long shot. I was a 20 year old convert and I was consistently surprised by how weird the majority of members seemed.

BIC by far. Being BIC is like being born in quicksand; smothered and trapped at the very start.

That is a really good way to put it.

Converts would have more of an opportunity to have compared other views before joining Mormonism, because they weren't born into it.

On the other hand, those who convert I have to ask what was it about Mormonism that drew them in in the first place? Was it the foil job of the missionaries and the love bombing that enabled them to make that choice? Or a need to belong to something greater than themselves that sucked them in?

My mom was a convert. My dad was BIC. She went to her death with a firmer testimony than my dad had. He believed in parts, and dismissed the parts of Mormonism he couldn't accept. My mom lived her life with the blindfolds on.

But then too, besides the culture of Mormonism some allude to here, or other religious identities, there is also the culture of secularism. Where some identify with it as a lifestyle to adhere to without any belief at all, not having any faith, because that is the socio-cultural stereotype they have come to identify with.

To me that represents a form of brainwashing as dangerous in some aspects as Mormonism is.

I don't think it's wrong to believe in deity, an afterlife, a judgment for our lives we lead will take place when we die, etc. I also was able to retain faith in the divine after leaving Mormonism behind; not because it's a fairy tale. Because it's very, very real to me and not made up.

To me creation represents a miraculous wonder, all of it. I accept that we're part of that creation that is by no means an accident or fluke of nature.

I was twelve when I joined Mormonism. I think what pulled me in was the idea that the Mormon church had more specific answers to life's big questions than other churches because Joseph Smith had spoken to God. I never felt like the prophets after Joseph had actually communicated with God because they didn't give much prophecy.

I also liked the high moral standards until I realized how insincere the leaders were. Most of my Mormon friends at the lowly membership level were sincere but leadership roles, especially the highest, seemed to bring with it a willingness to put themselves above others and "Lying for the Lord" was rampant. Arrogance from leaders seemed the norm.

That arrogance was also perceived (by me at least,) as smug self-righteousness and holier-than-thou attitudes the local leaders would use to tyrannize their wards.

Too many 'chiefs, and not enough Indians,' was a common Mormon saying I heard growing up about our leaders.

I heard it from the horse's mouth.

That was what initially cracked my shelf in my testimony of all things Mormon, was that attitude that was honed to an art.

I realized at some point the church was so dysfunctional that the dysfunction was systemic and ingrained in layers of false doctrine and pseudo religion; because no true religion could be so uninspired as the actions, words and deeds of those having authority over local congregations.

Some of those people have/had no business leading anyone, or being responsible for teaching others right from wrong. What's moral v. immoral (or amoral) behavior, etc. Their self-righteousness and hypocrisy cancel out any superiority complex they might harbor.

I agree with the BICs chiming in, that growing up in the faith was bad, but to be honest, I think it had to be worse for those of us dragged along with our convert parents.

Nominally, I had a choice to join, but as a well-behaved son, was I actually going to contradict my parents? I think not. Worse, I didn't understand the curious feelings I was having for the missionaries as a gay boy, but they weighed in heavily too.

Once we joined, I never felt anything other than second class. My parents, being converts, were never considered for meaningful callings (bishop, Elder's quorum president, Relief Society president, etc.) and their stigma carried over to me. I was relegated to the secretary position in each Aaronic priesthood quorum; I was passed over for leadership roles in Scouts. Frankly, it was never hard to see that being BIC was a primo advantage when it came to being in the Church.

But then, I had the whiplash of also being baptized young. I grew up in the faith. I had a public school teacher in fifth grade ask me to prepare a talk for my class about Mormonism and the westward migration. I prepared by ingesting a Marvelous Work and a Wonder and proceeded to keep my classmates rapt for two hours one afternoon. I was that kind of kid. I drank deep from my new religion and believed in it heartily.

It wasn't until I got older that I realized that I was doomed to the double stigma of being a convert and gay, and even then, as an adult who served an "honorable mission", I still took several years to finally extricate myself from the brainwashing, in spite of my brains and talents.

And naturally, I still have family who believe anyway.

So, while I agree in general that the BICs have it the worst, it is possible for those of us who converted to get slapped more than one way by our association with Mormonism.

Tyson Dunn

Had to go back and think about the numbers. Sorry, it's been many decades.

Tyson

Wouldn't both groups get screwed up either way you go!???

I'd say BIC, hands down. You are born into it , so that's all you know. You keep hearing the same doctrines over and over,
You have family in it. You can get so involved in it that your brain is gone. If you do want to leave, you're more likely to have lots of family members in. You'll get treated by crap by your own family, if you have a TBM family.
Some members aren't as mean though, but they probably have to listen all the time to other members trying to make them think otherwise.
If you're a convert, you more likely already came from another religion, so you'd detect if something doesn't sound right, plus you have something to compare it to. They're also more likely not to get as brainwashed, but that depends on how long you have been going and how devoted you become.
I was a convert and it took me the Internet to finally find out stuff that I never heard the almost 15 years I was there

I think converts, for making their own bad choice.

BICs.

My convert DD didn't lose her family when she joined even though she snubbed the entire family by getting married in a temple. We fought her decision but eventually accepted that our relationship was more important. Everyone in the extended family scratched their heads for awhile but have continued to treat her and her family well.

If her BIC, RM husband were ever to leave the church, I doubt his family would have the same reaction.

As an outsider I'm purely speculating but BIC's are blissful in their ignorance. It's only when they "figure it out" and the walls come crashing down it sucks the big one.

Converts, well unless they're kids, they had a choice going in. On top of that they KNOW there's Life Before/After The Mo.

As a skeptic of all organized religions (its not about the money, honest) I find the more restrictive and dictatorial the religion, the more incredulous I am people eat that shit up.

Watching Going Clear and the subsequent Leah Remini series has been very insightful as to the thoughts and motivations behind people following the cult.

The young. BIC or children of converts. Screwed. Yes.

AND . . . perhaps the worst of all, the Native American kids caught up in the Mormon Indian Placement Program also known as the "We Can Turn You White Program." Mormonism--one stop shopping for getting rid of your heritage and anything unique about you!

I sat on a plane recently next to a Native American woman who had a doctorate as an art therapist. She told me she was helping several Native Americans who were "yanked out of their homes and sent to live with the Mormons," and are now struggling with the disconnect from their heritage and what happened to them. None of them are still Mormon, but were deeply affected by the experience. She mentioned lots of emotional abuse and being made to feel "less than," which seems to be a Mormon specialty. I was really touched listening to her.

I was raised Mormon to the extreme. Dusk til dawn every day of the year. It is there in me even now all these decades later like some stupid tattoo you got when you were drunk and when you had it removed it was replaced by keloided scars.

Mormonism damages. Each of us has a different set of genes and each of us handles what happened in a different way. I don't consider myself screwed up from it, unless I decide to get really, really honest with myself, and then, well, yes.

They don't have any way of comparing mormonism with normalcy. Sometimes converts jump in with high hopes and work themselves into a frenzy hoping for appreciation or points in the CK. After years of grinding it out, they lose their self esteem and whatever they left behind before baptism. Some of them feel stupid for making such a big mistake, a feeling they might not be able to shake.

None of us feel good about being deceived.

I think regret is a wasted emotion that blocks recovery. As soon as possible, it helps to try looking forward instead of back. Whatever time is left can be far more joyous when we're free of cult control.

There's nothing we can do to change the past. It is what it is.

BIC's for sure.

3rd and 4th gen even worse.

TSCC is incredibly damaging to children. Adults can believe whatever wacky shit they want but to expect an 8 year old to express informed consent is wackadoo.

In fact DW and I had this argument when my kids wanted to stop going to church. Her philosophy was they don't know what they want yet.

I asked her why we asked them at 8 to get baptized? Argument won. Kids get to decide. I was on the couch for a week though... :)

That amused me.

Apparently there is a very small window opens up just before the eighth birthday when kids are suddenly old enough and wise enough to "choose" their religion. But, that window snaps shut in an instant when Mormonism is not chosen. The kids then revert to being too uninformed and naive to make that decision ever again. They won't "know what they want yet" even when they hit thirty.;)

Example A for how badly a BIC can get screwed up: myself the badass.