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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 09:28PM

...."Speech creates realities, good and evil. And hate speech has a friend in silence.

Most Germans did not murder Jews or the Roma, but every person who knew what was happening in the death camps and chose to go about their lives was complicit in the atrocities.

My dear friend Rabbi Yehiel Poupko calls them “the tribe of folded arms,” and they bear their share of guilt. Silence is dangerous, because it spreads the notion that the problems of your neighbor are not your problems.

We are all familiar with Martin Niemoller’s litany “First They Came for the Socialists.” To this day, many use his words to illustrate that you cannot tolerate discrimination against others, because one day hate will come knocking on your door.

But this litany also underscores the important point that institutional discrimination is gradual.

First, they came for the socialists and the trade unionists. Later, the Jews.

First, you lost your job if you spoke out. Later, you lost your job just for being Jewish.

First, you were moved from your home into the ghetto. Later, years later, you were sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz.

Societies do not move from good to evil overnight. The challenge of the gradual descent into hate is to speak out early enough and loud enough to reverse its course."

https://www.commerce.gov/news/blog/2016/05/hate-speech-has-friend-silence-lessons-holocaust

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 09:34PM

often times silence isn't about being a friend to hate.
It's about survival, it's about being paralyzed by fear.

Not everyone has the DNA to be brave and courageous.
There are reasons why an abused animal will often cower in the corner of it's cage.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:20PM

Only we aren't animals when faced with moral absolutes. We do make judgment calls.

It was the Resistance Fighters who answered the call to save others, maybe even complete strangers, at risk of their own lives for the greater good.

History judges us by our actions and inactions.

"If not us, who will? If not now, when?"

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 11:01PM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only we aren't animals when faced with moral
> absolutes. We do make judgment calls.
>
> It was the Resistance Fighters who answered the
> call to save others, maybe even complete
> strangers, at risk of their own lives for the
> greater good.
>
> History judges us by our actions and inactions.
>
> "If not us, who will? If not now, when?"

But just like animals, we are not born with morals. They are not innate with us.

Sorry, AmyJo, but I see a black and white, all or nothing thinking in the quote that was the OP

Just need to go to the news this past week or so about that couple who were abusing their kids.

Does the silence of the neighbors, who knew nothing, still make them complicit?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2018 11:04PM by angela.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 04:59AM

No, it would be silence by neighbors knowing there is ongoing abuse of those children that would make them complicit in their silence.

That is the difference between knowing and not knowing, and staying mum out of fear or complacency. It's cowardice to do nothing. It's a moral obligation to do something when faced with the choice.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 08:52AM

Babies are not born with values. They are not born knowing how to feed themselves or how to tie their own shoes.

These things are taught at early ages on. The values teachings can take a lifetime - but begins early in civilized society. (Something those 12 children were missing in. They weren't taught even the basics by their parents. The family dogs were treated better than their children were. Better fed; better cared for. What monsters would do such heinous things to their own children or anyone else's?) One of their children had the courage to break away and use a cell phone to call 911. That had to take a great amount of courage in the face of fear of her parents finding out what she'd done. She did it for the good of her siblings, and herself at grave peril to her own safety had she been caught by her sub-human parents.

Animals are not moral creatures. Whereas people are born with the expectation they will grow up to have basic values instilled involving right, wrong, and morality. Animals are kinder to their offspring than those depraved excuses for parents are.


The Resistance Fighters during the Holocaust placed themselves and sometimes their own families at great peril trying to save others from being murdered because of their religion. What side of history are they being judged on now?

The right side of history, if ever there was one. To have turned their backs on innocents was as complicit a crime as being an informer or Nazi during WWII.

When the Nazis went knocking on doors looking for Jews, the Mormon Germans by and large were complicit in their willingness to hand them over. What were the Jews guilty of? Absolutely nothing. Mormon Nazis were only too happy to appease the fuhrer. So they denounced the Jews every chance they could find.

That is worse than mere silence, my friend. If silence weren't bad enough, they were pro-active to railroading the Jews to Auschwitz.

The silent ones fearful for their own safety still had a backbone they chose not to use. They still made moral choices, based on their value judgments.

History judges them too by their cowardice. It was the Resistance Fighters who made a difference at the end of the day.

The Talmud teaches "He who saves a single life saves an entire world," includes those people who went to great lengths during the Holocaust to save others not related to themselves. Children of Holocaust survivors and the survivors themselves have given thanks to those rare men and women since. Because without them their fate would've been sealed long ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2018 10:30AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 09:52PM

He's right. Those with no courage have no valid excuse in my opinion. They are complicit.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:05PM

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He's right. Those with no courage have no valid
> excuse in my opinion. They are complicit.


This strikes me as what is known as "all or nothing" thinking, also know as "black or white" thinking.

From a psychological perspective, such thinking is considered to be a form of cognitive distortion.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 05:11AM

Good people say nothing about child abuse. They don't report crime because they don't want to be involved. They overlook abuses in the workplace. They say nothing about mormons abusing their own. The result is that these things escalate due in part to cowardice.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:15PM

Only the losing side needs to worry about being condemned for the wrongs laid at their feet.


How many of us have ever done anything to ease the plight of Native Americans? How many of us wondered what our parents and grandparents, etc., contributed to either their plight, or the easing of their plight?

I love a good angst as much as the next guy, but I also recognize how easy it is to point fingers, in search of validation.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:22PM

That's been my premise throughout.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:30PM

Anyone who believes that hate speech has an ally in silence should be careful not to make negative generalizations about people based on race, culture, nationality or gender. Surely that is even worse than silence.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:46PM

> First, they came for the socialists and the trade
> unionists. Later, the Jews.


...and now, the muslims:

In Palestine
In Iraq
In Libya
In Syria
In Yemen
In India
In Etc
And in Myanmar, where the Rohingya have suffered a holocaust at the hands of buddhists.

The lesson is this: any group can commit a holocaust, and any group can be its victim.

Why?

Because we are all,

Human

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 05:03AM

Thank you. Precisely. It is a very real, ongoing human dilemma. People haven't suddenly 'seen the light' since the Holocaust, because there's still more than enough hatred to go around in the world.

Without moral voices who are we exactly? Without action, talk is empty when lives are at stake.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 10:50PM

The 'good Rabbi' contributed only the phrase, "The tribe of folded arms" to the OP's quoted speech, which was given in May of 2016 by the U.S. Secretary of Commerce, Penny Pritzker.

She concluded her words with:

"The Torah teaches us,

"'You must not go around slandering your fellow human beings. You must not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is at stake.'"

I have absolutely no problem with that sentiment.

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Posted by: Anonymous1234 ( )
Date: January 21, 2018 11:25PM

Descrimination based on race and a lot of other factors that define who we are, is unacceptable. But be very careful as you define 'hate speech', least you spread the hate you want to avoid.

On the other hand, you mention socialists and members of trade unions first. What if I am just an average person who wants to keep most of my paychecks, and who chooses not to willingly support groups of people (on my labors) who want to make choices that I disagree with? Maybe they aren't willing to make the same sacrifices that I have made, or maybe they just don't want to work hard, or to become educated (their choice, not mine). Is there a moral infraction committed by me there if I don't want to share my paychecks with them?

when you oppress someone long enough, the resentment builds to the point where anyone who promises you a wall and has a plausible chance of getting it to you, gets your vote for President. You can't forcibly force a person's heart open while stealing from him at the same time. No one should be taken away and punished because of their race or membership in a trade organization. Yet the silent majority currently seems to be waiting in silence for now, until that wall is built.

I can't save the world. If others steal from me long enough and with enough determination, someone's going to need to save me.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 24, 2018 11:13PM

Do you own a home? If so, do you deduct the interest payments from your taxes?

Did you receive a public education? Do you sue the public highways? Police and fire services? Do you perhaps visit national parks or graze your cattle on public lands? Receive social security payments or subsidized health care?

I ask because if the answer to any of those questions is yes, you are partaking in a socialist system. Who is being ripped off? Your children and grandchildren since they will pay down the debt that current Americans are ratcheting up.

And if you think "liberal" programs are the culprit here, it may be helpful to look at the actual data. Defense spending and entitlements--like the mortgage interest deduction and subsidies to healthcare for the middle class--are squeezing everything else out.

To be an American today is to be a socialist, a socialist who is mortgaging his or her children's future. People in the United States hate entitlements--other people's entitlements, but not their own.

Romney was wrong. It is not 47% of Americans who live off the state: it is virtually everyone, including those who get preferential tax treatment due to the nature of their income (capital gains, carried interest), their tax shelters (including mortgage interest deductions), and various other preferential statuses.

I agree with you about "hate speech;" it can be used to quell discussion. I am more concerned with "hate action," like things that shift the burden of spending from today's voters to tomorrow's.

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Posted by: Anonymous1234 ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 12:16AM

I met an old woman on my mission who grew up as a young girl in Adolph Hitler's Germany. She described her mother saying something negative about Hitler to a friend of her husband's one day. He immediately warned her that if not for his friendship with her husband (the little girl's father), that she would be gone when her husband got home and that he would never see her again. What could this little girl do to change that? What could this little girl do to change her society if she had been twenty years older?

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 05:12AM

Holocaust survivors and the children of survivors have devoted their lives to educating others about the atrocities they or their elders lived through.

It is not in vain unless history repeats itself.

To forget is to not learn from the evils of the past.

That little girl, even if not Jewish, was a front seat observer to the horror. She could be an instrument for peace and good through education. She cannot change the past. Only she might make a difference in the present.

"Never again," is one of the slogans rising from the ashes of the Holocaust. The six million Jews who were murdered at the hands of the gestapo pales in comparison to the more than 60 million worldwide who perished on account of Jew hatred and the complicity of silence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2018 09:29AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 05:16AM


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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 07:06AM

Amyjo, just wanted to say thank you for posting that link and quotes from the article.

A person who had been very dear to me passed away in 2008. She was an Austrian child in pre-WWII Europe. Her non-Jewish parents opposed Hitler and all that he represented. As a result, her childhood experience was in a concentration camp where she watched her father die.

Her life after the war was one of resistance against dangerous governmental powers and blindly following authority. She even rejected government marriage licenses. I remember her words, that no government has the right to tell anyone who they should and can love. My father couldn't come to terms with that and ended his relationship with her simply because she would not settle into a traditional marriage with him. She spoke of wild geese mating for life and compared herself to them, her love was natural and needed no piece of paper from government to certify it.

Like I said, she was not Jewish, her childhood experiences contributed to her adult life as an atheist but it was a life filled with contributions to the world. In particular, she focused on helping women succeed in education and struggle in a male dominated society. She was a research scientist, the first female member of the International Radiation Commission.

She held a deep love for American Indians, understanding that America was not founded on inclusion but on genocide of people who were and still are denied their own natural right to exist in their own beliefs and practices. Her estate when she passed away went to the American Indian College fund and was quite a significant contribution.

She was non-LDS and frequently clashed with the patriarchal mindset of Utah Mormons but was a successful and valuable scientist holding professor positions at both a major university in Utah and in Vienna. And throughout her life she welcomed diversity of all humans while opposing authoritarian controls over personal lives.

I miss my friend. We hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim when I was 16 years old and she was in her early fifties. She assisted me with advice and guidance in my own educational pursuits when I graduated from High School, even though I am male. She did not relish the idea of my choice of leaving college for a military career but accepted my decisions and made it clear to me that she understood that the US Armed Forces was nothing like Hitler's military.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. The article you linked to brought back a flood of memories of someone I miss terribly whose life was so impacted by resistance to hate, even in her childhood when she had no control over what her parents had done to land all of them in a concentration camp.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2018 08:07AM by mikemitchell.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 09:17AM

Thank you for sharing some precious memories of your dear friend. She was a remarkable human being. You were blessed to have known her. And she was you.

The war had its effect on those closest to its collateral damage. My ex-husband's parents were survivors of WWII living in Warsaw, Poland. They watched the collapse of their government turn to Communism, which my ex-husband was raised as.

His now retired cousin told me this after we split, that Polish Communists did very poorly in marriage following WWII and the rise of Communism because they were taught not to trust anyone. Not even in marriage.

The now retired professor (he's since moved back to Poland,) told me that marriage sustainability was one of the first things lost post-war Poland. He himself was married several times and divorced several times.

My ex is no different, but in his case he has deeper underlying issues his cousin nor I can accept. We both had to write him off because of his borderline personality disorder that caused him to do some crazy things, not necessarily related to his having been a Communist for the first half of his life.

Your friend's parents were resistance fighters. Her parents were unsung heroes of that horrible time. She emulated and honored them by her life choices.

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Posted by: fighter ( )
Date: January 22, 2018 09:42AM

Thank you for sharing your story.

I have been reading wapo this morning, fairly fired up about the blind adherence to policies and dictates so traditionally un-American as to seemingly tear down the plaque from the Statue of Liberty, and topple the torch from its hand.

Then I read that very blindness above, expressed so clearly, in voting for a wall intended to rip the pay from that voter's pocket, the very thing that the voter had wanted to "protect," for him or herself, and the willingness to harm others to [remain safe].

Safety is an illusion that only a fool would offer as a reality, and only a fool would try to buy. Safety can be earned, in small measure, in choosing to offer it equally to those willing to share its burdens. Those who think they can buy it with a vote are fools, especially, those who think it can buy it from one who ran away from fighting for his country not once, but five times, now earning the slight, "Cadet Bone Spurs."

I read the question from the poster above, what could a twenty-something year old do, and thought, well, one of them gave up her legs and became a senator. Millions of other lie in hospitals and graves, all having, if not the plaque of words, but the intent in their beings, to welcome the poor, wretched masses to a place(s) where earning safety has always been accepted as a fight worth having.

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Posted by: vigilant ( )
Date: January 24, 2018 08:54PM

I hate snakes, hate disease, hate lies, hate fraud, hate poverty, hate ignorance, hate starvation, hate pollution. I guess that makes me a hater

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 24, 2018 11:00PM

Not if you hate hate and spread love it don't.

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: January 25, 2018 01:54AM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...."Speech creates realities, good and evil. And
> hate speech has a friend in silence.
>
> Most Germans did not murder Jews or the Roma, but
> every person who knew what was happening in the
> death camps and chose to go about their lives was
> complicit in the atrocities.


Silence has nothing to do with it. Those people weren't complicit to advance silence, but because it was their job. They were in it for the money. They would have spoken up, in favor or against, if they had benefited from it, without any danger to their own lives.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 25, 2018 08:33AM


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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 25, 2018 09:59AM

Many of those same people were charged with war crimes following WWII, tried and convicted for their silence and complicity - and for those who worked in the death camps while their fellow Germans were being murdered in cold blood.

That makes them complicit. Their jobs were part of the killing apparatus.

Some were hung for their silence in complicity, post-Nuremberg trials. That includes SS guards responsible for guarding the prisoners, among many others.

Interesting to note Adolf Hitler himself did not pull a trigger, or gas any Jews. He gave the orders to. "The Nazis' highest authority, the person most to blame for the Holocaust, was missing at the trials. Adolf Hitler had committed suicide in the final days of the war, as had several of his closest aides. Many more criminals were never tried. Some fled Germany to live abroad, including hundreds who came to the United States."

Those in hiding literally got away with murder.

Some among them who went into hiding were Mormon Nazis, some of whom were SS guards who participated in some of the most heinous crimes of the 20th century. One guy at the ex-Mormon Conference where the author of the book "Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany," spoke at, came up to speak to the author following the conference (author David Nelson,) very matter of factly and proudly saying his own father had been one of the Mormon Nazi Germans who came to America following the Holocaust, who served under Hitler. He is but one of many. His son took pride in that. I found that incredulous. His father was a war criminal who never faced prosecution.

https://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007722



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2018 11:47AM by Amyjo.

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