Forbes has a list of top ten states people are fleeing. Utah is #9 on that list.

Then it lists the ten states people are going to. Its list is based on United Van Lines compilation, and as to reason given for leaving or moving to: they're going to where they believe the jobs are.

Note: neighboring states Idaho and Nevada are in the top ten people are moving TO. As for the job market, I haven't a clue. They're both in a struggling economy. Maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the state line? Nevada has no state sales or income tax. But Idaho does.

http://www3.forbes.com/leadership/the-u-s-states-people-are-fleeing-and-the-ones-they-are-moving-to/3/

http://www3.forbes.com/leadership/the-u-s-states-people-are-fleeing-and-the-ones-they-are-moving-to/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2018 02:08AM by Amyjo.

On our most recent trip from CA to Utah, our intention was to *look around* for a place to live.

But, due to the population, pollution and traffic, we ran home so fast our hair was on fire!

...then again, maybe it was the horror and stench of mink farms.

The I-15 corridor is no blessing.

No, but it's about the only place you can make a decent living. It's grown so much in the past 10 years, it sucks. Really, if you're a white collar worker and looking to make a decent living, you're limited to the 90 miles from Provo to Ogden. Any other place, outside of Logan, Park City or St. George and you're in BFE.

StillAnon Wrote:
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> No, but it's about the only place you can make a
> decent living. It's grown so much in the past 10
> years, it sucks. Really, if you're a white collar
> worker and looking to make a decent living, you're
> limited to the 90 miles from Provo to Ogden. Any
> other place, outside of Logan, Park City or St.
> George and you're in BFE.

That's kind of the sense I got when visiting there. That stretch of highway between Ogden and Salt Lake City my grandmother drove hundreds of times during her lifetime would be unrecognizable to her now. It's just one big running megalopolis.

You're right. There used to be gaps between Ogden and Layton, Layton to Bountiful, Draper to American Fork/Orem. Now, it's one continuous concrete mess. Because our politicians are mostly developers, builders and real estate guys, there's no zoning or planning required. It's also the same old crap. I could blindfold you, drive you to Orem, Draper, Sandy, Farmington, Layton, etc. take off the blindfold and you'd have no idea which city you're in. Same old junk. Crappy apartments, Cafe Rio's, Noodle's and Co., Panda Express, nail salons, Massage Envy and Ice Cream shops. It's a shame. Some decent scenery along the mountain range and they paved over every inch. Just wait until they move the prison and sell off that land.

I think Dire Straits called it “Telegraph Road”.

Mink farms? People really run mink farms in Utah these days? I should have guessed.

My mom tried starting up a Chinchilla farm when I was a kid. Our entire front porch was converted into one for a time.

Maybe it was profitable, because after a year or more the Chinchillas ceased to exist? She would've had to have sold them off. It never really took flight thank God.

What part of Utah were you considering? Southern? Central? Or closer to Salt Lake where the heavier population centers reside?

I could see myself living fairly comfortably in southern, near or in St George. Not up north closer to Salt Lake City, despite that's where more jobs and the commerce centers are.

When I move there I hope to retire first so if I do work after retirement it won't be because it will be my primary source of income. Otherwise I know I wouldn't be able to afford living there on a waged income type job.

Honestly, I don't know how young adults do it starting out these days without a hefty endowment from their parents, or a really good start in life otherwise. Rents have skyrocketed everywhere in the last decade and two. Wages aren't keeping up anywhere close with inflation. I don't see a silver lining in our economy anytime soon.

hey could you sum it up for us? Write the list 1 thru 10 so we can comment?

I dont have the patience for a slide show and flashing advertisements

Forbes article doesn't give details as to why each state was mentioned. Other than for the jobs factor. On the Facebook link it highlighted Millenials rather than "people" in general. In article only people are mentioned, not Millenials.

Utah was 9th on the list out of states people are leaving.

It's a short slide show featuring other places I really aren't as interested in other than New York which made the top ten like Utah did.

Top ten states peeps are leaving:

10. Wisconsin
9. Utah
8. Kentucky
7. Ohio
6. Massachusetts
5. Kansas
4. Connecticut
3. New York
2. New Jersey
1. Illinois

Top ten folks are moving to:

1. Vermont
2. Oregon
3. Idaho
4. Nevada
5. South Dakota
6. Washington
7. South Carolina
8. North Carolina
9. Colorado
10. Alabama

Well, if you are looking for the state that most MORMONS are moving FROM it is clearly California. Conversely, the state that most MORMONS are moving TO, and it seems to be Texas.

Finally those wind bags can be put to good use powering wind farms.

In California, we're losing local wards two and three at a time. I imagine the people are moving to Utah, like my Mormon family. Good riddance.

donbagley Wrote:
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> In California, we're losing local wards two and
> three at a time. I imagine the people are moving
> to Utah, like my Mormon family. Good riddance.


The only people whom I know personally who've relocated from CA to Utah in the past year are all Mormon; one of them, however, who is quite TBM, told me that he REALLY did not want to move there. He and his wife only moved because so many of their kids have ended up in Utah.

sharapata Wrote:
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> Well, if you are looking for the state that most
> MORMONS are moving FROM it is clearly California.
> Conversely, the state that most MORMONS are moving
> TO, and it seems to be Texas.

One of my daughter's (junior in high school) best friends is moving to Texas next week. Dad got a new job there.

They're not mormons. They're not christians. They're entirely irreligious. Fortunately, they're going to Austin, which is a bit more tolerant of such people than other parts of Texas. But still...

My daughter's friend was over this weekend. I asked her what she thought about moving to Texas (they've been out there several times in the past weeks househunting). Her reply:

"It's Texas. From what I've seen, it's got tons of fundamentalist christians and mormons. And they're so judgmental. We were looking at one house to rent, and the landlord asked us what church we go to...when we told him we don't go to church, that was the end of that house. He wouldn't rent to us. I felt like I was going back in time to like 1950. I'm gonna go crazy there!"

(she doesn't know I'm a former mormon, she mentioned that without prompting!)

I've heard Texas is growing a lot and the housing prices are really good, (unlike Utah.)
My brother in law was just in San Antonio and he stopped by to visit his cousin, who lives there. He said they have a really big house that was fairly cheap, and he was considering moving there.
The housing prices are rather tempting, but you couldn't pay me enough to live there. They have a lot of crazy religious people there, like you mentioned, and I could never put up with that. Utah is bad enough.
I visited my brother in Washington a couple of years ago, and fell in love with it. I could totally see myself living there. It's absolutely beautiful, has cooler weather,(which I prefer), and legal cannabis! Too bad it costs so much to live there, cause I'd move in a heartbeat.

I wish I had read the posts before clicking on that obnoxious link. I really hate slide shows, especially those which use high-pixilated stock photos. Thanks for the list.

There are too many divergent factors to generalize. Sunbelt shows up a bit as destination migration, but not enough to argue a pattern. Same with taxes: Vermont, Oregon, and Washington are high tax states. And California doesn't show up!

I guess we're safe to make our own assumptions. I know that Massachusetts loses a Congressional seat every census. That's popcorn time, as we watch the legislature figure out who loses his seat in electoral musical chairs. :)

What will be interesting is to see what happens with the upper income folks when the Trump tax structure kicks in. Connecticut is seeing significant loss in the tony parts of Fairfield County, and high-priced real estate (emphasis on "estate") is taking a big hit in value. Nothing I'll lose sleep over!

Amyjo Wrote:
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> Note: neighboring states Idaho and Nevada are in
> the top ten people are moving TO. As for the job
> market, I haven't a clue. They're both in a
> struggling economy. Maybe the grass is greener on
> the other side of the state line?

AKA not having the faintest idea. My outsider view:

Looking at both lists, I have a sense that people are being squeezed out of states with a high standard of living (NY, NJ, IL, MA) and into states that are cheaper (VT, ID, SD, NV).

If we had a full fifty-state list for both, the trends would probably emerge more clearly: from CA to OR and NV; from NY and MA to VT; from IL to SD, and from UT to ID.

I've seen the same when I came of age in Spain. My friends in Madrid couldn't afford a house there like their parents did. If they didn't like the idea of moving to a poorer suburb, they just moved to Valencia, where they could afford the center. And when the unemployed in Madrid give up on trying, they move to a rural province because it's cheaper to be unemployed there than in the city.

Just my two cents.

You and I posted in short succession; please check my post above. The two lists resist generalizations, except that high-tax states are overly represented on the "leave" list. But then, so are Vermont, Oregon, and Washington. Vermont is very costly, and has become an enclave of the liberal elite.

But it has the Joseph Smith birthplace!!

"I'm so old, I remember when Vermont had more cows than Communists!"

caffiend Wrote:
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> Vermont is very costly, and has become an enclave of the
> liberal elite.

Well there. I thought it would be cheaper than New York and Massachusetts.

Of course, We also don't see the movements WITHIN states. Some unlisted states may have a lot of flow from coast to center or vice versa.

Moreover, perhaps states on the "losing" list have pockets that gain population, and states on the "winning" list have vast areas that are down and out. That is probably why California, Texas, Florida and Michigan are on neither list: they may have a lot of both.

Remember the words of Harry Truman: lies, damn lies and statistics ;)

Taxes, property increases, and groceries make Vermont expensive. When I was young it was strictly agricultural and a Republican lock, "more cows than people," was the saying.

Left out of this is immigration, especially illegal. My take is that middle-class liberals are fleeing the blue states, which are being kept blue with illegal immigration, and yes, they do vote. These middle and upper-middle-class liberals, fleeing the change in quality of life and high taxes, take their political leanings to places like Idaho, Nevada, Maine, North Carolina, and New Hampshire, and make them purple, then blue.

Wash, rinse, and repeat.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is attributed to Mark Twain, who in turn attributed it to Benjamin Disraeli.

A lot of Utah people seem to wind up in the Indy suburbs where it is still relatively cheap to buy a house.

Who would've thunk?

Utah housing prices look pretty steep to me, where I've been house hunting.

The median housing price has gone up a good $50,000 or more in over the past five years and still climbing. Is it because of another housing bubble, or because the house market is stabilizing where it wants to be following the market crash of 2008?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2018 08:16AM by Amyjo.

A little of both. Our home, at least on paper has appreciated 150K in the past 6 years. We are on the East bench, where they've run out of room to build new homes. Every week we get a flyer or knock on the door and letters in the mail from invest buyers. They are buying homes to flip. They offer cash prices in the upper range. a few folks on our block, that were the original owners 29 years ago, sold their 120k original priced homes for 400-480K. The problem is, unless you're moving out of state, you're going to spend 550k-650k for the same size home further away from town. It's ridiculous. It's nice to see your home appreciate, but you can bet the property taxing entities take advantage of these inflated prices.

A $280,000-$360,000 increase on the price of their homes in 29 years? Sounds like a windfall. Unless, as you say, it would cost more to replace their homes than they can sell them for.

That sounds an awful lot like a housing bubble to me that your house appreciated by $150,000 in just the past six years.

It makes me nervous for the market. I don't know when is the better time to sell or buy. By waiting I've been pricing myself out of the market at this rate.

If I leave my job now, I'd be giving up part of a vested pension I've worked many years for. I'm in a catch-22!

The Utah housing market isn't for novices or beginners in the job or housing market, where it is now.

Unless you're retiring or already established in a job/career that is portable, how on earth do young families or singles make it starting out there? Even the rents are astronomical for a young single or couple getting established. The jobs tend to pay low wage for beginning salaries.

I really feel badly for the Millenials and those coming up after them getting a foothold in this economy. It is really tough out there. Utah is no exception. For older people nearing retirement, losing a job can be even more catastrophic because that can mean loss of home, health insurance, etc. We can work years to build a nest egg, and it can still be swept away by the changing tides.

No security anymore in the job market. People do tend to go where the jobs are. That they are leaving Utah says more to me about the job market, perhaps, than the housing market (given that housing is still disproportionately expensive elsewhere also - with exceptions in some under performing maybe more rural areas such as in the mid-west, for example.)

The wasatch front is in the top 5 housing markets right now. Yes, it's a bubble, the flippers will get burned again. Every little lot, old farm land that's been in families for generations, are worth so much they're getting ridiculous offers. Developers are building 600-700K homes in any place they can stuff them in Sandy and Draper. It's nuts. It will crash and adjust. A 300k bump in 30 years is nothing compared to CA. With interests rates at 3% (not for long) people don't care what the cost is-just their monthly payment. The Trump effect and tax giveaway is going to bring higher interest rates, kill the stock market and the housing bubble will burst again.

I knew there was a reason I've stayed in my ranch bungalow in the burbs.

Where I live is a stabler housing market. We live with higher property taxes, but even there when I turn 62 can get my school taxes written off for a senior discount.

Holy crap. People can't afford to grow old in a place like Utah. Can't afford to work. Live. Retire. If they can't afford the housing that is. Most of their income goes to housing it seems. Followed by taxes, utilities, etc.

Shshh.

The only reason I love it there is the majestic scenery of the red rocky vistas in the south. Those may be worth sacrificing my livelihood for if/when I do relocate there. Otherwise, I have little desire to live up north in the Ogden, Salt Lake City area. Although I have considered it. My mom, grandmother, her mother and grandmother are all buried within a 60 mile radius of each other between Ogden and SLC. It was home to them, and me for a small part of my growing up years.

It's a little cheaper to live in Ogden. But not anywhere near as nice as southern Utah is in the wintertime.

One of my friends has homes in both places. He's getting tired of going back and forth, and the expense of keeping up two homes. That would bother me as well ie, the expense of two homes. One is more than enough for me to handle.

They aren't making any more land, nor air to breathe in the winter.

However, there's this info: https://www.realtor.com/news/trends/the-surprising-states-people-are-moving-to-and-from/

It's no mystery why people flee Utah. It's the money.
Let's take Provo for instance:

Housing is getting more and more expensive for renters: https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-provo-rent-trends/
and buyers: https://www.zillow.com/utah-county-ut/home-values/
Median home price is $344K; median rental is $1425/mo. Even the DesNews ran a story on this: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865683214/Report-94-hour-workweek-required-at-minimum-wage-to-afford-2-bedroom-apartment-in-Utah.html

It's a problem because Utah has one of the highest percentages of low-wage workers (less than $12/hr): https://policy-practice.oxfamamerica.org/work/poverty-in-the-us/low-wage-map/

Although Utah.gov no longer publishes online data on the percent of jobs that pay less than $15/hour, most people here are aware that Utah is notorious for low pay, even for jobs that require degrees. This news article says that almost 1/4 of Utah jobs are in low-wage occupations: http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2017/07/25/low-wages-little-savings-among-many-utah-families/509722001/

Even jobs that require degrees and experience often pay less than $15/hr; one family member who graduated last year with a BS in Behavioral Science felt lucky to grab a full-time job with benefits that paid $14.25/hr, when many classmates couldn't find anything that good.

Basically, if you want to survive financially here without a tech degree or a career flipping houses, good luck.

Most of the waged worker's pay would be gobbled up in housing expenses.

I don't understand either how people can afford to live there with low wages and high rents/housing prices.

Something's gotta give.

Lots of people work multiple jobs (myself included). That sucks and wears a person down after a while; it's not sustainable, but when the alternatives are being homeless or having to compete for an even more expensive place, you just do it. The rental market where I live is so tight that anyplace decent goes within hours, if not minutes, of being posted online.

Many people share an apartment or house with family members/friends, but landlords seem to be cracking down on that.

I know someone who recently moved back to Utah after living in a large East Coast city for a few years. Rent in Utah is comparable, but the jobs pay much, much less. If I could find a job out of state, I would move.

I worked two jobs back-to-back for twelve years straight, while raising two children - through their junior high, high school and then college years.

It took its toll on my health for sure. It was 60 hour weeks. I'd be up from 8:00 a.m. to after midnight each workday, M-F.

It was just enough to keep the wolves from our door. I really sympathize with those who are in the same boat as I was then.

Now they're grown. My taxes went up since I can no longer claim dependents. Still there is more money to go around at the end of each month than I had back then. And I was able to leave one of those jobs.

It was tough. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I still made time for family time each day. Saw my kids off to school each morning. We had dinner together in the evening right before I'd dash off to my evening job. When they needed me to attend something, I was able to be there for them. And weekends were all ours. We were like the Three Musketeers during those years. Miss them so much (my children, not the long work weeks!)

You do what you have to when raising a family. We weathered several recessions during their formative years. Despite hardships we always had enough, and our necessities were met.

Mormons have to repopulate the earth.

There is that.

But first, they have to pay for them.

but in Cache Valley, we don't really see the people moving out. Cache Valley doesn't pay all that well depending on where you work.

My aunt is a realtor and she said that every home that goes up for sale in the SLC area has multiple offers. My boyfriend bought his house here just at the right time 5 years ago. It has increased in value quite a bit. Now, my house, we bought in 1986 and our house has increased to over $200,000. Not sure how much over $200,000, but we are very happy with what the value is. We don't plan on selling. Our kids will inherit it and then they can decide. I do know that there are SO MANY HOUSES being built around here. I'm rather shocked by how much home building there is.

I would leave my home to my children too if they want it.

My son offered to help me with my retirement home in St George when I'm ready to relocate there.

My house here is a fraction of the prices they sell for there. I actually have my place fixed up to where I really enjoy my home. Doubt I'll miss these winters though when I finally make the move.

It's the summers that will take some getting used to once I'm there. I hope to have COLD AC.

:D

We moved from Anchorage Alaska to St George 6 years ago, bought at the bottom of the market in a nice neighborhood and lucked out. The housing market here is nuts, building homes everywhere at prices that first time homebuyers cannot afford. The rental market is very tight as well. Wages here are low, and I think lots of young couples live in mom and dad's basement. A quarter of the homes are second homes, so big influx every winter of folks from 'up north' as they say. St George is the land of the newly wed and the nearly dead. Lots of former CA residents, as well as elsewhere.

Six years ago is when I "discovered" St. George via a realtor's site for southern Idaho.

The realtor is licensed in both states. On his MLS multiple listings sources when you look for listings in Bloomington, Idaho up popped Bloomington, Utah.

I'd not known before there are places in Utah with real palm trees, desert, and more sunshine than clouds year-round. Those first pics of St. George took my breath away.

They still do.

But yeah, I tried putting an offer on a home in Bloomington in 2012 when it was listed for $167,000. It took a long time to sell, but sell it did.

Now that same house would likely list for closer to $300,000 (only six years time.)

It is crazy. Another house I actually had a contract on last winter, but there was a glitch in the transaction - I was able to cancel and so I did.

A year later I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Had I been in St George instead of where I am, would likely have postponed my mammogram indefinitely. I'd last had it in Feb 2017, and things looked normal. Only ten months later the cancer showed up.

I was going to wait five years from last February to get another one. On a fluke I went last November. In St. George I'd have been so busy soaking up the sunshine and hiking the trails, looking for another job, etc., getting my annual checkup would've been an afterthought.

But I love it there too. With the building explosion, I don't know if I'll recognize it in another five years? (Kidding. You can't miss those red rocks - they're everywhere.) :-)

Congrats on moving when you did. You saved a ton of money. Your equity alone would pay off your first mortgage practically by now.