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Posted by: alaskawild ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 07:15PM

Ok, this may be long winded so be patient. Its interesting how your paradigms shift as you progress through different ages. I am in my mid 40's now and at a young age I believe I went through the normal phases of puberty. Around age 12 girls all around me became my number 1 topic. They were attractive and sexy and i desired to be around them, I desired to touch them and I, of course, wanted to see them naked.

About this same time, several young men of similar age in my neighborhood or school, got their hot hands on some Playboy and Penthouse magazines. I was absolutely blown away at the beauty and sexiness of the female form. It was literally like a drug! A high of highs! The arousal was intense and i wanted more and more. I was able to get some magazines and i could hardly go a day without looking at them and taking in the intense nude contents.

Aside from this, my normal biological course was forging ahead. Me, a growing boy with large doses of testosterone coursing through my body, my mind was on sex and sexuality 24/7. In my interactions with my friends i gathered that everyone was in the same boat. Constantly checking out the girls in school, fantasizing about them, hoping to catch a glimpse of some cleavage or thong underwear riding high. Hoping to get a girl alone to make-out and possibly touch her breasts etc. I consider all of this normal and healthy sexual behavior for kids in their teens. Its part of the human experience and it is in our DNA and part of our biology.

So yes, I admit that i was obsessed with women. They were goddesses in my mind. I desired to be with them. I lusted after them. I pleasured myself on nearly a daily basis and part of the time I did so while looking at nude magazines.

Now bring in the church. Yes, I felt very guilty and horrible about my "perversion". I felt ashamed that i struggled with this thing, that i could not let go of. Lets be honest, you cannot wish it away or pray it away! I confessed from time to time as I got older, but I was too afraid to confess prior to my mission. I think at the MTC the pressure got to me and i confessed to it with little ramifications.

I was pretty good on my mission but even then, at age 19, you can only suppress your high RPM sexuality and hormones for so long. On a few occasions i had to rub one out but i felt super guilty and unworthy and told my mission president. He was pretty cool about it and basically told me to not take the sacrament for a few weeks.

Then i get home from my mission and it was more of the same. Women were my drug and they were everywhere. Dating was fun, but i still was a good kid. I wasn't out to sleep with anyone and i drew the line at the waist. I figured any fun i had with the opposite sex would be above the waist. But then, as most of you know, you get into a hot and heavy situation and you want to touch each other in the nether regions. Its highly intoxicating and fulfilling. Still, through all of this i was able to maintain my virginity until i got married at age 30. Ya! big surprise to me too.

This is what I want to talk about. I got married and i don't believe that i had unrealistic expectations about sex and marriage. I figured that sex was a normal and regular thing and it is one of the marital benefits i was looking forward to. I figured there would be no more self gratification, because now I had a partner. I never had any unrighteous, weird or unnatural desires of my wife either. I just wanted to have a fun and playful intimate relationship and i hoped it would be frequent.

It was for a bit, but quickly i found out that my wife was either not that into sex or in general she was asexual. Yes, we had sex, but it didn't seem to be a big deal to her. She rarely, and i mean rarely flirted with me or made suggestive comments to me. Largely, it was me that had the libido and wanted to get frisky with my wife. Initiation and desire for intimacy only seemed to come from me. There were a few times where she initiated but it was largely coming from me.

Lets just say that sex was not fulfilling in my marriage and so from time to time, i turned to occasional porn and masturbation. At some point my wife clued into this and it was pretty much the end of the world. It was the worst thing a mormon woman could experience!! I was evil. I was perverse. Her mormon marriage dream was caving in. Her husband was a pervert and was unworthy!! Oh the horror!!

My wife at that point in time put up walls around her, closed off her heart and soul and began to distance herself from me. She would go on to pretend to love me and pretend to want to have sex, but you can tell when someone is into it, vs. someone who is not. Sex became less and less fulfilling, because I wanted to be there and be with my wife, but she would rather be asleep and not having to deal with me. She did it only because she figured it was her duty as a wife, but not because she wanted to be there in that moment. As her partner, you can feel that and sex became less and less arousing and fulfilling. I still did my best to stay away from porn and masturbation but sometimes its pull was strong enough to ensnare me.

I would always confess and come clean with my bishop and try to focus on being better. I never cheated on my wife, i never strayed from the marriage, never had inappropriate relationships. Its something i would never do. But still, this became the wedge between us and after several years my wife decided she couldn't deal with it and she petitioned for divorce. I think she could not love me and she saw me as a pervert and as an unworthy man and that was not the future she wanted.

Ultimatly, she said that she considered that i had cheated on her. I did not agree with this statement. To me cheating involves emotions and feelings. It involves getting to know someone around you and then making plans with that person. That person is on your mind and you want to be with them and you ultimately find a way to be alone together and break your marital vows. Going to porn is not the same thing. Not in the same universe. I know nothing about the woman on the screen. I don't know her name, where she lives, what she likes to do etc. I know nothing about her. I don't meet her, i don't make plans with her and i likely will not see her on screen again. The porn is nothing more than a visual stimulus, right? Thats it. Its a stimulus to get aroused for sexual release. Now I admit, its not a habit you want to let spiral out of control, but lets stay grounded here.

I bet a lot of marriages just like mine have ended over this same topic. But i think its a travesty. I think its disgusting and i think its an absolute overreaction. Ultimately, who broke up the marriage and broke up our family? I certainly didn't. I wasn't the one who filed for divorce and left. I was committed to the relationship and i didn't want anyone else. But, what i did want and what i did expect was a partner to have a similar libido and desire to have a frequent and healthy sexual relationship with me. When that didn't happen, i regretfully turned to a different source for visual stimulus and sexual release.

Ladies, am i wrong here? Am i a bad person in your book? Because i think I am a pretty typical guy. I don't have any weird or unnatural desires and i never got into violent or crazy weird porn. Please comment so maybe i can see your perspective on this.

And men, if you have had a similar experience, please comment.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2018 11:11AM by alaskawild.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 07:44PM

I think your wife, sadly did you a favor. You're still young and now have the opportunity to find a partner who desires the intimacy that sex brings. I believe that most people desire intimacy with their partner and when one doesn't want it, for what ever reason needs to understand that it's a reasonable desire in a marriage and should be willing to negotiate so that both partners can be satisfied. Whether that means remaining together or separating.

I think porn has nothing to do with it.

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Posted by: evergreen ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 08:16PM

Mormonism does not allow young people to experiment with sex to learn individual needs and desires. In fact TSCC indoctrinates the young to suppress the natural sexual desire and equate the thought of sex with sin.

On the honeymoon night, intercourse is shocking, in particular, to the uninitiated woman. Not only is the sex act painful and bizarre, but it is difficult to overcome the lifelong indoctrination. Plus unexperienced men and women have not learned necessary techniques to increase enjoyment and enable orgasm for the female. Without orgasm, sex can be unpleasant and boring.

I think Mormonism is the root of many sexual problems in marriage.

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Posted by: alaskawild ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 08:39PM

I'll say a loud AMEN to that comment!!!

And, what this teaches the fallacy of not being sexually active before you marry someone. Its probably much smarter and wiser to have had sexual relations with your significant other, so you have a good idea of what you are getting into. We all have unique sexual personalities that are not readily shown, so its seems smart to know your partner's sexual style and personality before marrying them. I wish I had known what i was getting into before i married my wife.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:38AM

alaskawild Wrote:
> I'll say a loud AMEN to that comment!!!
> And, what this teaches the fallacy of not
> being sexually active before you marry someone.
> Its probably much smarter and wiser to have had
> sexual relations with your significant other, so
> you have a good idea of what you are getting into.
> We all have unique sexual personalities that are
> not readily shown, so its seems smart to know your
> partner's sexual style and personality before
> marrying them. I wish I had known what i was
> getting into before i married my wife.

I need to put in a cautionary, very cautionary note, as I have a nephew now dealing with throat cancer due to HPV.

When you sleep with someone, you are sleeping with, in a sense, every other person they have slept with.

STD's should very much be in the mind of anyone who is deciding whether or not to sleep with someone....

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 08:57PM

I have absolutely no idea.

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Posted by: janis ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 09:06PM

I'm so lucky I dodged this bullet in spite of DH and I being mormon.

I was not a mormon throughout some of my 20's and half of my 30's. He was a nevermo until age 35.

We'd both dated a lot and had plenty of experience by the time we married at age 35. None of this stuff was an issue for us.

Even though I was raised mormon, I ditched it at age 20. I was single and learned pretty quickly that if I ever wanted to date and marry a guy that I was actually attracted to, it wasn't going to happen in the singles ward. That was the worst possible place to find a mate.

I started dating all different types of guys. It was such a huge relief to meet and date 'normal' men. There were some real jerks in the pile, but that was ok. I didn't have to see them at church every 7 days when I decided I didn't want to date them again.

I married DH in my mid 30's. It was a good thing for both of us. We both like having a home, and having someone to experience life with. It took us a while to find each other. We both kissed a lot of toads before we met each other.

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Posted by: LeftTheMorg ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 09:29PM

Formely LDS woman here. Was BIC, was very devout, believing, married in the Temple LDS woman. Was a virgin on my wedding night. I had plenty of desire (lots of pent up desire), invited my brand new husband to “lets take a shower together” before we got intimate. My husband loved it.

I think because he suggested I buy some sex books written by an LDS physician and read them before we got married, that this helped.

Sexual intercourse was painful for me, since it was my 1st time, even with lots of desire. I had no idea what to do, nor when I was ready for it. It got better for the rest of our honeymoon and for weeks after that. I did get sore, though. I think if we girls had been told that masturbation was good for us things would’ve been much better. I would have understood my body better, and not have been sore.

I would bet that the overall libido in women is much lower than in men overall. If you think about it this is because females can reproduce without orgasm, so females that don’t have orgasms nor big libidos continue to reproduce and pass on the low libido genetics. Whereas males who cannot orgasm will not reproduce. Thus the population of males becomes made up mostly of those who have big libidos, whereas women are still hit or miss. Due to this it would still be difficult to find women with a high libido to marry.

Think of it: If there is intelligent design, why are women overall so unmatched to the male libido? It just destroys marriages.

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Posted by: ladyme ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 10:02PM

Speaking as a woman, any woman who has had the earth-shifting, abdominal muscle rolling, electric blue-light, weightless legs orgasm while being penetrated by her beloved, would tell you in a heatbeat that she wants more. Sex kitten, I'm in the mood, let me strip and rub you down slowly, candles are lit, sheets are silky, I'm ready.

This does not necessarily speak to either your performance or her frigidity, but perhaps a lack of experience and knowledge by both.

You likely know this by now, but porn actresses are just that. What the guys are doing, or appear to be doing, or how women depict pleasuring themselves, is not a sexual education. In your entire post, there was not one mention of how you tried to please her, different techniques or counseling. Nearly the entire post was about your gratification.

I realize that it's a retrospective view, and you may have omitted a writing of those things. She likely did not spend almost two decades learning to rub one out, and I wouldn't find it surprising to learn that she was clueless as to how to bring herself to orgasm, much less advise you. She may have moaned, groaned and moved her hips, even scratched your back, but those are expectations she would know. Has nothing to do with an actual release of sexuality, sexual tension, a sexual feeling. Those are easily a performance.

Does this make you bad person? No. Your fault? Hardly. I think you were both terribly ignorant about the other sex, and her, also probably quite ignorant about her own and well into self-shame. It was nearly a setup for failure.

Porn is not verboten, as long as all are consenting adults. But it is not an adequate instruction.

I wish you well in finding someone with more interest and knowledge in her own pleasure. How are you going to know how to please a particular woman, if she is unable to tell you? News flash, just like guys, women have preferences, above her belt and below it. She'd best be able to describe those in words.

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Posted by: ano for this ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:07AM

After my sister's 11-year marriage ended, she revealed to me that she had never once experienced orgasm. And they had been together since she was 16, that makes 14 years. Yes they did have sex all that time and produced three children.

I felt appalled. They can't have been a very good match then, since talking about sex had not been a problem (not mormons).

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 10:42PM

Naked lust in sinful Sweden ...

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Posted by: Honest Female ( )
Date: February 10, 2018 11:14PM

I will reveal you the secret of female sexuality.

First of all, I'm a normal woman, well, slightly more sexual than most women. My husband said I was the best sex he ever had.

I often initiated sex, enjoyed fantasy and role-playing, we laughed, and sometimes we were very passionate--it was all great!

Honestly, I never said the words you suggested--ever! "I'm horny, lets fool around" Or, "I am so turned on right now, i want you inside me" One time, he did say something to that effect. He approached me like I was a piece of meat, with the purpose of his own selfish satisfaction. This one encounter with him was an ordeal, and afterwards, I left the room, and said, coldly, over my shoulder, "Don't ever treat me like that again."

And he didn't. You need to understand that there's a difference between "having sex", which is what you want, and "making love", which requires more of a person.

Women are more than just naked porn, or mirrors of men's selfish lust.

Try saying the words, "I love you." or "You are beautiful" or, most of the time, my husband and I don't say anything at all--it just happens as a normal part of our lives. It begins with holding hands, being close in the kitchen, being alone (no kids) on the couch, bumping into each other in bed, on a trip.

You need to learn about romance. You don't have to be in a fancy hotel room, or give her flowers and gifts--just treat your wife like a beloved, respected human being, for God's sake!

What you do in the bathroom is private, and certain bodily functions (that's what your kind of sex translates into) need not be discussed with your wife or your bishop, or here on RFM. Keep it to yourself.

You have so much to learn, that I have little hope for you.

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Posted by: alaskawild ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 10:54AM

Thanks for your comments. I didn't give all the story and context to try to limit the size of my post. Certainly i wanted to make love to my spouse as you suggest, not just have meaningless sex.

One other observation i would add is that the church stole my sexuality. It was a forbidden thing. it was dark and naughty, it was something we weren't supposed to be involved in. So in having such a harsh position, it forces many people's sexuality into the closet. You end up having a lot of men who secretly look at porn to get off, rather than be sexually active with real women. I know that i took that path as I felt it was the lesser of two evils.

In hindsight, i wish I had developed normal sexual relationships with women i was dating rather than go in secret and look at porn.

The church stole my sexuality. It stole my normal, healthy development and seriously affected my sexuality throughout my life. I believe, and I know of many others who believe that the church is dead wrong on its harsh positions on sexuality. Having its members be celibate is a hard line to take and such harsh sexual repression will ultimately have repercussions and fallout later on. You can only suppress normal bodily functions so long before you will take care of them one way or another.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:29AM

The insidious repression cuts both ways for men and women in the church. It's evil, the sin next to murder until you get married and then after marriage you're supposed to pray before sex and invite Jesus to the three way. How can those notions lead to a healthy, intimate sex life?

I do feel sorry for your ex. I hope she can find her asexual priesthood holder who can usher her into celestial paradise.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2018 11:30AM by Devoted Exmo.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 01:11AM

Your sexuality sounds completely normal to me.

There is such a thing as a sexual mismatch, which is why I advocate that couples sleep together before marriage. Libido can vary widely. Skill level can also vary widely (sex is a skill that gets better with practice.) Plus, good sex requires a certain uninhibited quality that can be difficult for some people.

Women need to be very familiar with their own bodies, including masturbation, so they know exactly what brings them to orgasm. Even if they know how to bring themselves to orgasm, it can take quite a while to transfer that to their partnership.

Sexuality in women is, IMO, more subtle and complex than that of men. A man can do everything "right" and still not engage his partner. Women also tend to peak sexually at a later age, often in their 40s.

I think the single most important thing that anyone can do to improve their sex life is to be physically active in either sports or pursuits such as dance, yoga, etc. It is critical to know your body and be comfortable in your body.

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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 01:44AM

I don't want to feel guilty about feeling sexual towards women that is all i know. The church made me feel like sex was so evil and it was bullsh#t. It is something that i myself need to work on. They repressed me and put me into a shameful box that was never normal. That whole religion isn't normal and f#cks you up in this area. Guilt, hiding, guilt, hiding. It gets tiresome and old.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 01:48AM

I've seen these discussions on LDS sites and here, and the end result is usually the same - its the guy's fault for not meeting his wife's demands prior to sex. The guy is led around by the nose and slapped if he gets too horny. You are never to fully enjoy sex the way a man wants to. Has to be on her terms.

If only you were more romantic, or gave her back rubs, etc, etc, she would be interested. Somehow you don't require all that, so it is obvious that you have different desires. In general, women are less interested, due to testosterone and anatomy.

Some say she might have just not known how to get an orgasm. Well how hard is that to learn? If you're actually horny, or attracted to your spouse, you can figure it out. Guys certainly didn't need training. More evidence of a desire issue.

And by the way, it is also good if you make alot of money, and are tall and handsome and fit.

And if you're too nice, many women lose respect for you and aren't interested.

You should have played the same game with money. You should have held your paycheck until she met your demands. Or maybe only go to work when you felt like it. But then you would be told to "man up" and quit being a jerk.

That's the thing, you probably felt some obligation to go to work, but few women feel an obligation toward sex. The whole marriage thing is for them to get the most for the least. Once they have you trapped, the less they have to put out.

Wedding vows are only about restricting sex with others, not about providing it to each other. I read on an LDS site of a guy not getting sex for 18 years and his wife was prominent in church, RS president, etc.

Then we are told of women's oppression in church. Why can't such guys use their priesthood and command their wives to offer sex? Unfortunately the priesthood only works if wives allow it. So who is in control?

This issue is part of the scam of marriage, which is not as advertised. More and more men are waking up and checking out and going MGTOW or red pill.

I was researching this topic last year and came upon this discussion by women who hated sex. Quite an eye opener. Including a wife who only allowed sex when wanting to get pregnant. Women who think sex is gross. Then a woman who said the majority of he women she talks to don't want to have sex, but go through the motions, or get divorced.

That is what is going on in the world, yet guys are led to believe they will have regular sex in marriage. Again, there is no obligation, and many, if not most wives just aren't interested.

As for porn, she obviously didn't like you looking at it, because she needs monopoly control over your sexuality in order to get more from you. If you have an alternate outlet, you are less likely to bow to her demands. Which is why sex generally is made to be obscene and dirty. It is about control and power. Which is why so many women like the control they get in the church. They can run to the bishop to get their guy disciplined if he looks at porn or whatever.

Anyway, welcome to the club, and to reality.

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Posted by: Mother Who Knows ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 04:38AM

Bad attitude = bad sex.

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Posted by: Female (anonymous) ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 04:26AM

Seems like more men than women responded.

My husband and I were TBM's, and were friends for 5 years. We were virgins (though I'm not sure about him, but I was) when we got married. The sex has always been great. I'm multi-orgasmic. I agree with the poster who didn't like the "I'm horny...I'm turned on right now" type of approach.

I have a friend who is married to a very handsome man, but she has always hated sex. She had some fun experiences before marriage, but her husband behaves like an oaf. He sleeps in a different bedroom, and will walk into her bedroom, all ready for action, saying "I'm turned on," and it had nothing to do with HER. He would not say anything else, or be affectionate, and afterwards, he would silently leave the room.

I agree with the female poster who said, "Nearly the entire post was about your gratification."

It's sad that other men on this thread think it has to be the woman's way all the time. You men just don't get it! Sex is win-win. It is fun for BOTH. If a man doesn't care about what a woman wants, he doesn't love her, maybe. The same goes for a woman--if she doesn't care about giving her man the kind of physical love he needs, she doesn't truly love him, either. I'm not talking about the occasional "not being in the mood," but on a regular basis.

I agree that there is a huge difference between having sex and making love! Both are fine, but having sex WITH a partner requires some giving, and caring about the other person. Without the emotional aspects, you might as well be alone with your magazines (which might have their place in your life.)

You men seem to be objectifying your women. I suppose you could blame Mormonism for this, as it is a sexist religion, and polygamy objectifies women, and raping 14-year-olds. Add to this disrespect of women to lack of experience, and maybe this really is the cause for sexual disparity.

Hinckley said his wife was his most valuable "possession."

Still, I would hope that most people have a sense of humanity toward the opposite sex. Don't men enjoy making someone else happy? Don't men like to give pleasure to their partner? I do--and maybe that's part of the secret of my success in the sex department.

But--never have I been forced or guilted into anything I didn't want to do.

OP's sexual urges and liking porn are normal, but his focus on his own selfish gratification is not normal. Is he Narcissistic? A sociopath? Just selfish and immature? He and his wife should both get sex counseling.

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Posted by: alaskawild ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:04AM

Thanks for your comments and observation. I really didn't get as deep into it all due to trying to limit the size of my post.

All i was trying to suggest with those flirty and sexual comments is that never did they happen. I find it very arousing when a woman says what she wants. And I certainly wasn't wanting our relationship to be "wham, bam, thank you maam". But my wife never was sexual or suggestive. Flirting was a foreign thing to her.

For a man to go 10 years in a marriage and feel like about 98% of the time it was always initiated by him, it becomes clear that she isn't interested and must not want to be sexual. Or, is that how all relationships function; the man doing all the initiation?? I highly doubt that.

And no, i am not only out for my own gratification as you allege. That would be the highest level of selfishness. I worked to satisfy my wife and she regularly orgasmed during sex. In fact, i felt bad on those occasions where she was not able to reach it. I wanted it to be mutual satisfaction for both of us.

Bottom line is that we were completely off in that realm. Sex to my wife seemed like a chore, seemed unimportant and i believe she frankly never thought about it or cared about it. And yet I considered it an important part of the marital relationship.

But in the LDS world of dating with the law of chastity, we didn't explore any of this prior to getting married, so i didn't realize how different we were. Had we dated longer and been intimate together i might have figured this stuff out.

As to your comments about me being a Narcissist or Sociopath... really? Do you always go to extreme labels after reading a condensed internet post about sexuality??

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2018 11:15AM by alaskawild.

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Posted by: ladyme ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:22PM

OP, I'm glad that you understood my intent about the "gratification" comment. I hesitated in writing it because I feared it might be weaponized, but then thought you to be the focus, and put it in.

I took your post as extremely generous in baring your sexual history, then **asking** women for their norms. I did not take any of your post as having been selfish in your relationship with your ex. The gratification comment was more an invite for you to describe your **current** knowledge about how you might communicate and sexually interact with a woman.

As generous and open as your post was, I assumed that to be the *tone* you would use with a real-life woman.

Was my assumption correct?

My interest lay in your recognition that a woman who can't be as forthright as you - you may be willing to help her learn, but there's a point where you're throwing good money after bad. (I'm borrowing a phrase, not objectifying.) A sexually healthy woman will be able to communicate her needs - emotionally and physically (above and below the waist).

My sex kitten comment was meant to impart that a woman may communicate her desire in unmistakable, non-verbal ways. She may not say, I'm horny, or Let's go f###, but her mesaage will be clear. Once there, she should be able to give verbal and non-verbal direction as to what she finds pleasing.

A sexually healthy heterosexual woman will express desire to her sexually healthy heterosexual mate.

Something I didn't consider before writing that statement, was how very difficult her life would be, were she not heterosexual. I am not stating it as the case, only offering as a consideration. So many LGBQTIA Mormons lead lives of utter misery and shame. I consider it an LDS crime against nature.

*I'm so sorry *gratification* was turned into a "selfishness" issue. That's the opposite of how I read your post, and the opposite of my intent.*

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:01AM

Lick it before you poke it - she comes first. For women the primary organ of pleasure is the clitoris, not the vagina. Tips from your friendly neighborhood lesbian.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:32AM

Not necessarily true for all women. Having a conversation about it might get you closer to what "does it" for her.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 06:43PM

Not an opinion, a biological fact

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 07:40PM

I am a woman and I don't like it. I don't want anyone else messing with my pleasure button. I think I'm qualified to say what I do and don't like. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 09:48PM

only 30% of women can orgasm through penetration alone. If you don't enjoy having your partner stimulate your clitoris, but clearly prefer to do it yourself, you obviously understand the connection here.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 10:20PM

Yes. I certainly know my way around my body -- what I like during sex and what works and doesn't work. I guess I was reacting to the statement that men should be licking you because that's what makes a woman orgasm.

It doesn't work for me and probably doesn't work for others. That's why I suggested having a conversation before assuming licking is the answer.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:09PM

What is normal? I'm a female just for you info. Just from my observations over the years of people I know and myself, there is so much more than just what happens in the bedroom or touching, etc. I know men who have been scared out of feeling anything sexual. One person I know well was brought up Mormon and felt very guilt-ridden about anything sexual. He ended up married to a girl who was raised by a single mother who slept with every guy around and her daughters did, too. They had little black books of their own. When they got together as a family, they all talked about their sex lives and it was very difficult for this guy to be in this environment. The first thing his therapist said after the divorce was they were raised on totally different ends of the spectrum. He still struggles with intimacy issues, but his wife doesn't press the issue. This is not the only man I've run into that has that problem.

Myself, a female, I was taught that women weren't supposed to like sex. If they did, they were sluts. I've had people challenge me on this issue, but I've also heard other women say the same thing. It is very difficult to undo that type of programming. Women were supposed to keep their man satisfied, but they weren't supposed to like it.

Then you take into the mix little kids running around the house and the time and energy those kids take and when a woman falls into bed, they are oftentimes exhausted and don't want to be touched at all as they have been touched all day long. They just want to sleep. Then the man starts pressuring them and telling them they are not meeting their needs. Okay, this is cl2. I am not signed in here, so I started this. Anyway, my gay ex even made me feel guilty for not giving him enough sex. Okay, now go figure. AND NO, he isn't bisexual. Not in the least. Get together with family and all the men were making fun of the women for not giving them enough sex. This goes over like a lead balloon. Don't go grabbing a woman all day long like grabbing her boob wherever you might be at. Give her a hug, a kiss. Don't be demanding. Treat her with respect. The minute you start making it a control issue, you've lost. Period.

And Mormon women for the most part are not going to talk about sex. They aren't going to tell you they want to jump your bones even if they might want to jump your bones. We were taught we aren't supposed to be sexual. We are the ones who are supposed to keep you on the straight and narrow.

Nowadays, I don't give a shit if you look at porn and I don't care if you masturbate. I do care how you treat me though. You treat me like shit during the day and, come evening, I'm not going to want to have sex with you.

Someone once said that doing the dishes for a woman is foreplay on the man's part. Yep. It was for me when I was a young mother. I was guilted to death for not giving my husband enough sex right down to a church leader telling me it was my fault he cheated even not knowing how much sex we had had. It didn't matter how much, it just wasn't enough if he cheated. And this is the attitude of many mormon men.

Don't ever think you just get it no matter what. Treat her like she is cherished as often as you can possibly bear it. The last thing I want to be treated like is a piece of ass.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:13PM

(Important to me to repeat the following as part of the thread and not just a reply to one poster)

I need to put in a cautionary, very cautionary note, as I have a nephew now dealing with throat cancer due to HPV.

When you sleep with someone, you are sleeping with, in a sense, every other person they have slept with.

STD's should very much be in the mind of anyone who is deciding whether or not to sleep with someone....

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:28PM

For the naive little mormon virgin that I was, you can't imagine how many partners I was exposed to in my gay/straight marriage. I do know of wives of gays who have ended up with HIV. Luckily, I didn't.

BUT your statement is very important.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:53PM

Most women crave lavish praise, appreciation of their attributes, flowers, sweet talk, gentleness and such. Men shouldn't expect women to be exactly like them and women shouldn't expect men to constantly treat them with flowery wooing words and touches. Couples need to get real.

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Posted by: MeWoman ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 12:56PM

Alaska, you are very normal, I wouldn't expect anything different from a man or boy when you were young.

I agree it is best to have sex before marrying (or at least talking being open about it), but only if you are serious with each other, because like the other poster said, you are sleeping with every person the other person slept with, that is really an issue overall with having premarital sex that it can be dangerous health wise, also premarital sex can link people emotionally before they are ready to commit to each other, such as having sex then realizing the relationship is not going to work, then you break up and start the cycle again with the next person, and before you know it, you have slept with many people (maybe?) and your STD risk increases greatly.

From a nevermo female.

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Posted by: Goldros ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 01:01PM

No, porn isn't the same as cheating. No matter how many times the bishop says it's the same. However, Mormon women are trained to treat it as cheating. I understand the emotional pain she probably went through. You can always find both sides being guilty, if you want to.

I love sex. But I also had some terrible partners. We didn't click in bed. And ugh, I can't imagine being married to them. I'd probably also use porn on daily basis.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: February 11, 2018 11:53PM

While reading your post, I was reminded of a comment that former Playboy Advisor James Petersen once made. When answering a question about partners having differing amounts of sexual desire from one another, he noted that assuming that your partner will have the same sexual desire as you is a very destructive fallacy. They don't, and they are not going to. To make relationships work, therefore, both partners need to learn to compromise with each other about sex and when to and when not to have it.

While I have had sex with another person (female) only once during my 54 years on this planet, that encounter and what followed after it taught me that Mr. Petersen hit the nail on the head. In my case, it was the woman I was involved with who turned out to have a stronger libido than I did, and when I saw how the relationship would most likely go, I decided to end it there.

The big problem, as you so eloquently stated in your post and in your responses to others, is how religions, especially Mormonism, view sexual relations. The assumption is that sexual mismatches are few and far between and that most can be easily worked out; yet, there is plenty of evidence in divorce and other statistics that suggest otherwise, and I find myself strongly favoring a much more holistic view of experimenting with and developing sexual relationships that is a great deal more complex than what most religions, including Mormonism, are willing to consider.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 12, 2018 02:44AM

It's too bad that ... since tscc wants / gets to control & manipulate all your sexual thoughts & actions, they "think" that teaching about STDs, pregnancy, etc. = endorsing or encouraging sexual thoughts & actions outside of marriage.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2018 05:04AM by GNPE.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 12, 2018 04:51AM

From the point of view of evolution, one would expect men to be
pushed by their biology to have as much sex with as many women as
possible. This maximizes the chance for the mans gene's to

Women, on the other hand, would want to protect the offspring
they have, since THAT would maximize the chances for the woman's
genes to propagate.

So women would want a monogamous mate to protect the family while
men would want to fool around with as many women of child-bearing
age as possible.

But that's just what tendencies one would expect from evolution.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: February 12, 2018 07:02AM

Sure a many nuanced topic for what should be a simple instinctual thing...IMO much is regulated by the programmed know THE sex organ...well intentioned comments by well meaning parents can put an unbreakable lock on sexuality that the most determined keys can never open...if in forty years your spouse has never once still uncomfortable to be or seen naked...though multi orgasmic still finds it uncomfortable to just enjoy...someone has done an admirable job locking their brain...great job gramps or gram...your kid enjoyed sex the same as you did...ya $&@&& prudes...IMO there is much truth to what others relate regarding sexual commerce...if you were lucky

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Posted by: Anon for this one ( )
Date: February 13, 2018 01:18AM

There was a medical reason for it, but this did not surface until I was well into adulthood.

My mother was absolutely certain that I was "doing something" that caused the infections. Even though urinalysis confirmed that I had infections, she was sure that there was more to it.

She dragged me to a GYN doctor for an exam. The stirrups, the speculum, the whole nine yards. To a mature adult woman, this kind of stuff is mildly off-putting, but a part of adulthood.

To a pre-pubescent child, it was devastating. The male doctor confirmed to my mother that I was, indeed, still a virgin (I was shocked that it was even an issue.) And because I had multiple infections, my mother insisted on multiple, invasive exams. She shamed me, by insisting that I must "enjoy" the exams, because I kept getting infections.

I have never, as an adult, enjoyed sex, and I believe that it was due to these examinations. I have been able to fake it well enough to have a satisfying relationship with my husband, but I never wanted to relive all that grossness and shame I experienced as a child, with a therapist, to get past it. My husband has no idea that I've been through this stuff, and I'm not about to tell him.

I have no interest in "sex therapy." The whole idea seems disgusting. I have been able to fake enjoyment enough that my husband is satisfied. Eventually, we will arrive at an age where it is no longer an issue, and that will be fine with me.

I wish it had been different. I think I had a normal sex drive when I got old enough for it. But actually "doing it" was a horrible let-down. Oh, well.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: February 13, 2018 01:27PM

from religion? Was she mormon? My mother was a BIT crazy about sex issues. I had a difficult time telling her I had "come of age." I have a very difficult time talking about sex, so I'm one of those that won't say something like "I want to jump your bones," and being married to someone gay and sometimes trying to initiate it and being turned down so many times and seeing that look in his eyes of disgust, I, myself, have a lot of issues.

BUT I didn't mean to start out with that. What your mother did was criminal. Why did the damn doctor continue to allow this to happen or did she take you to different doctors? I would have never recovered from what you have been through. I don't think I would have ever had sex with someone, let alone pretend.

I'm SO VERY SORRY for what your mother put you through. This is just an example of what happens to youth who are raised in a religion that is so fucked up about sex.

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Posted by: OP ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 01:19AM

My mother was a nurse (when on duty) and an alcoholic (when off duty.) She was definitely weird, but not religious. I guess over the course of her career, she had seen all kinds of sick sh!t. She was absolutely convinced that I must be doing SOMETHING to myself, to cause these repeated infections. Of course, I wasn't, and it turned out to be a manifestation of illness. But I didn't know that until I was an adult.

She took me to the same doctor, over and over. At least, he had the sense to put me on antibiotics, to knock out the infections. A simple urinalysis would have told the story, but my mother insisted on the full examinations, just because, you know - I MUST have been doing something.

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Posted by: Yikes ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 04:29PM

Your mother sounds like a truly wretched person

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Posted by: OP ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 04:48PM

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Posted by: Birdman ( )
Date: February 13, 2018 02:57AM

Is there sex without love? Is there love without sex? People need to figure out their own happiness, limitations and tolerances.

Having sex before, during, after, etc. doesn't really solve anything because as humans we all lie.

At the end of the day we live in an age that is somewhat more enlightened then past ages. That's why we have divorce. Rather than killing one another, living in unsatisfactory relationships, etc. - we can get a divorce. Not a perfect solution but better than the alternatives.

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Posted by: Atari ( )
Date: February 13, 2018 12:14PM

It is interesting to read your story. I thought it was just us gay guys that felt that guilt of our sexuality.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: February 13, 2018 02:07PM

"Am i a bad person in your book? Because i think I am a pretty typical guy"

You sound pretty normal to me. It's sad what the Mormon cult makes people suffer through.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 01:13PM

My wife's greatest fear (and my greatest frustration) was that she might have to confess what we had done sexually within our marriage.

"Can we do XXX?" She could never answer any sexual question with her opinion. She had to consider the implications of having to confess her "sin."

What could factor into a confession?
- her conscience;
- her mother's conscience;
- a sexually forward bishop;
- an Ensign article;
- any repressed Relief Society teacher;
- etc.

Any of these people had more say in my sex life than I did.

Any sexual experimentation was fraught with danger. At any point she could be overcome with "confession terror." "What if I have to confess *this*?" Her reaction in the moment could be to shutdown totally or become violent.

Finally, what happened when my wife confessed? I recall once when my wife went to confess about what we had done as a couple the previous weekend. She told the bishop that he shouldn't judge her too harshly because her husband had "raped her." My wife's attitude relaxed when the bishop told her that (his opinion was) what a married couple does within their marriage is not sinful when it is consensual. When my wife learned that she could have consensual sex, then she did not have to claim that she was "raped." Of course, she couldn't relax as a wife because another bishop could have a different opinion about sexual experimentation within marriage.

I never initiated any sexual contact with that woman again. Never. Not once. From then until our divorce *she* had to start any sexual conversations or activity. A man can not have a woman claiming that he "rapes her."

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Posted by: Nottelling ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 06:20PM

Every couple has to tell there bishop when and how they have sex? What.....that should be nobody's business....craziness!!

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 08:55PM

Every couple *does not* have to confess to their bishop how they have sex. But when your wife is sex/sin obsessed, she can insist that she must confess. The trigger can be her private conscience or a conversation with her mother or other sisters at Church or a book on LDS intimacy or learning that they do *that* in porn or anything that stresses a prudish attitude toward sex.

When a religion has a culture that rewards becoming a prude, the pressure to demonstrate that she is sufficiently prudish grows to ever insane proportions. Nobody ever says, "Sister, you are becoming too much of a prude." Notwithstanding, the Church doctrines proclaim a healthy sexual relationship within marriage. None of that matters when a prude must show her standing within the prudes within an LDS family or ward.

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Posted by: alaskawild2 ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 10:00PM

I think this is where my marriage went wrong. I found out that i had married a prude. And that truly sucks. So i think she viewed herself as the righteous, faithful person and then looked upon me as a flawed and worldly individual. I think she was in that category of worrying about sex or feeling guilty about having pleasure and gratification.

Next time around, no prudes for me!!

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Posted by: sd ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 03:16PM

need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place. Billy Crystal

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Posted by: Yikes ( )
Date: February 14, 2018 04:31PM

On a different note...

Wait till she gets a “good” TBM husband who mistreats her and (genuinely) cheats on her! She doesn’t know how good she had it.

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