What if time was of the essence?

What if the teen's life would be severely impacted -- with life-long consequences -- because the parents want to deny treatment?

Now what if the teen was trans?

Does it matter if sexuality is involved or is the principle the same?

http://ktla.com/2018/02/13/ohio-parents-seek-custody-to-stop-transgender-teen-from-having-hormone-treatment/

Many people who joined the Mormon church at age 17 regretted it years later.

Not the same, of course, but I'm just pointing out that teens don't always make the best decisions.

If parents are expected to pay for this you can't blame them for refusing.

Once the kid is an adult with his own money he can do whatever he pleases, his decision.

Why force this kid to grow unwanted breasts when it can be prevented? No costly mastectomy or scars. The teen is with his grandparents and not mom or dad.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why force this kid to grow unwanted breasts when
> it can be prevented? No costly mastectomy or
> scars. The teen is with his grandparents and not
> mom or dad.


How can breast growth be prevented? Seriously, I learned in medical school of no consistent way breast growth can be kept from happening. After the fact, Tissue can be surgically removed after the fact, obviously, but as far as supplements of any sort that can prevent the growth in the first place, we're not there yet. Extreme weight control can impede breast growth to some degree, but not many women want to maintain anorexic-like lifestyles for their entire lives.

scmd not logged in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anybody Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why force this kid to grow unwanted breasts
> when
> > it can be prevented? No costly mastectomy or
> > scars. The teen is with his grandparents and
> not
> > mom or dad.
>
>
> How can breast growth be prevented? Seriously, I
> learned in medical school of no consistent way
> breast growth can be kept from happening. After
> the fact, Tissue can be surgically removed after
> the fact, obviously, but as far as supplements of
> any sort that can prevent the growth in the first
> place, we're not there yet. Extreme weight control
> can impede breast growth to some degree, but not
> many women want to maintain anorexic-like
> lifestyles for their entire lives.

I assumed the OP was speaking of female breast growth. Where male breast growth is concerned, there are non-surgical things that cab be done. As a parent, I would support a child in obtaining the treatment that would inhibit the growth of man boobs if the kid didn't want them. If it were a financial hardship to the family, however, it might be something that had to wait if insurance didn't cover it. (I personally think insurance should cover it, but that's just my opinion.

Regarding parents who object being forced to pay for sexual reassignment surgery, for whatever reason they object, it's not likely to happen soon, nor should it necessarily. Before eighteen is a very young age for such things. Beyond eighteen, where does society draw the line on what it forces parents to pay for?

Adults are allowed to make choices for themselves. along with those rights come responsibilities, which include the responsibilities to pay for such choices. Otherwise, where is the line to be drawn? A kid doesn't like the way his or her nose looks, so parents are forced to pay for the reconstructive surgery? A young adult decides that dental school didn't work out for him. He wants to go to art school instead. should parents be forced to pay for that as well.

If one of my children wants gender reassignment surgery at a reasonable age, as in at an age at which the child is responsible enough to make the choice and isn't likely to change his or her mind later, because I am likely to have the means to provide the funds for such surgery by the time the kid is old enough to be allowed to make such a choice for himself or herself(I certainly couldn't afford it right now), I would choose to pay for the surgery if it is what is necessary for my child to become the person he or she truly is. That would be my choice. For all sorts of reasons, however, other parents either feel differently or are not in a position to provide the funds for such an undertaking. Why should another child in the family be denied funds to attend college or university because his or her parents were forced to pay for a sibling's gender reassignment surgery and the parent couldn't afford both.

A parent obviously shouldn't be allowed to deny a kid an appendectomy. Breast reduction surgery is another matter entirely. A kid should have the right to such surgery but may need to come up with a way to finance it himself. If he or she is not a legal adult, it may be earlier than is optimal for such a procedure anyway.

if we really were talking about some sort of hormone supplements that would reduce female breast enlargement, that might be another matter, but to the best of my knowledge, such treatment doesn't exist. Even if it did, the cost might be prohibitive to many parents.

in trans boys who were assigned female sex at birth.

https://blog.timesunion.com/transgender/puberty-blockers-my-sons-life-perserver/466/


Puberty blockers hold the pre-pubescent body in stasis so to speak as far as secondary sex characteristics go and puberty restarts if the medication stops.

I'm torn on this one.
On the one hand, I do think teens can make poor decisions, and that even with kids in this situation they should have their concerns heard.

On the other hand, this kid is 17, almost 18. At 18 the kid can legally do what he wants anyway, so this is at best a very short-term delay.

Ideally, I think it would be great if the parents supported the kid's gender identity, and worked out a compromise where they'll support the hormone treatments after the kid turns 18, if he still wants them. Just that parental support would probably go a long way towards helping the kid's depression and thoughts of suicide.

I don't know. Tough call.

This is not a religious issue.

I'm with Hie on this. Love them and support them, and let them take whatever actions they feel are appropriate once they reach 18. Like it or not, there are enough stories of kids changing their minds to warrant delay.

or are you saying the parents are just using religion as an excuse?

"But Donald Clancy of the Hamilton County Prosecutor’s Office argued that the reason why the parents don’t want their child to receive hormone replacement therapy is because it is also against their religious beliefs. “Father testified that any kind of transition at all would go against his core beliefs and allowing the child to transition would be akin to him taking his heart out of his chest and placing it on the table,” according to a transcript of Clancy’s closing argument."

"**also** against their religious beliefs."

There remains a prima facie case that in the absence of any extenuating questions regarding the parents' fitness, they have the absolute right to decide this type of issue on behalf of their minor child.

All issues relating to any sort of body dysphoria are by definition a mental condition. It's therefore of utmost importance that actions involving any life-long physical alterations rooted in any sort of body dysphoria must be taken slowly and with an overwhelming amount of consideration.

By the time a child is a teenager it's not a phase and it's not going to "go away."

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

Imagine you were this kid. What would your choices be? Would you have other family as this young man did or would you have to try to make it on the streets?

This isn't a new problem either. I recently saw a documentary that had newsreel footage from the 1960s that showed kids living in parks or abandoned buildings because their parents woudn't accept their gender or sexual orientation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 03:37PM by anybody.

I don't know anybody that insists this is a simple problem. It's not.

I know there are conflicting studies, but it does appear that sex reassignment surgery is not a proven panacea for everybody. High rates of depression and suicide remain. And it's extremely difficult to reverse the reversal. Though the numbers are small, there is an increase in those expressing regret over their transgender surgeries.

It would be nice to deal with this in a more open manner without having to constantly deal with a contingent standing on the sidelines ready to unleash all manner of name calling and imagined hatred simply because an alternative is examined that falls outside their insisted orthodoxy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 04:36PM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

One thing that is known with certainty is is that the risk of depression and suicide is lowered if the child is allowed to transistion and has the support of parents and family.

And that's a lot better that being forced to suffer "to save one's soul."

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing that is known with certainty is is that
> the risk of depression and suicide is lowered if
> the child is allowed to transistion and has the
> support of parents and family.

You qualify one item with another. If a child has the support of parents and family than it is likely they will be "allowed" to transition. If a child doesn't have that support and is "allowed" to transition I don't think you can reasonably assert that the risk of depression and suicide will be lowered.

As the parent of a child that contemplated suicide because of the weight of being gay in Utah. And as a man who as a teen contemplated suicide because of a familial situation that was horrible. I can anecdotally state that depression and suicide are pretty complicated. It seems that the law of unintended consequences has already determined that isolating this discussion to this one instance is a bad idea.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/04/11/473292576/parent-support-may-help-transgender-childrens-mental-health

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/02/24/peds.2015-3223

Even with parental and family support some kids still kill themselves. I'm just saying according to what is currently known it's less likely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 06:13PM by anybody.

You always fail to notice the nuance to situations. In this one the child doesn't have the support of parents. Which is the stated reason for the depression and suicide.

The fact that this child's parents are terrible should not create a situation where parents are no longer able to help their children grow up.

The courts acted appropriately. The ruled that the court appointed guardians would continue to be the guardians. The child will receive the treatment requested, but not because it is the right thing to do but because the guardians are the right people to help make the decision and they agree with the child.

I don't see anything wrong with asking the teen to wait until age 18. Barring that, perhaps this is the sort of situation where a teen can go in front of a judge to make his or her case.

Again, the time element is the factor here. Perhaps he is lucky and he doesn't have much breast development but if psychologists and doctors determine that he should receive treatment then he should. The problem is even more acute for trans girls because of the massive hormone rush at age nine or ten.

This case is about sexuality but it could be any other medical issue. Should your parents' religious beliefs control you for the rest of your life? It's not like getting a tattoo or running away with an older man or underage drinking or some other bad teen behavior. This is different. Should your family have the power of life and death over you simply because of religion?

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but if psychologists and
> doctors determine that he should receive treatment
> then he should.

Um...no.
It's smart and reasonable to get multiple medical opinions on *anything* major. And most of the time on minor things.
Because psychologists and doctors are human. They can make mistakes, they can have biases, they can be ignorant, they can mis-diagnose.

Sorry, but even if I was 100% behind the teen here, I couldn't support "do whatever the doctor says."

> Should your parents'
> religious beliefs control you for the rest of your
> life?

Of course not.
Keep in mind, though, in THIS case, we're not talking about "for the rest of your life."

The kid is 17. At 18 he can do whatever he wants. At most we're talking about one year, not rest of life.

> Should your family have the power of life and
> death over you simply because of religion?

Again, no, but life and death isn't the issue here. Elective, not-always-effective, side-effect-carrying, controversial hormone treatments are.

Yes, the father making it a religious issue is a twist here. Ideally, the father should support his child (which doesn't necessarily mean agreeing to the treatments). But let's not get carried away with hyperbole...

It seems people can be rational just about any other medical issue but if it involves sex rationality goes out of the window.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2018 08:31PM by anybody.

I'm being extremely rational. I just don't agree with you. I agree with Hie. And I did state that a neutral third party (a judge) would perhaps be in order to ensure that the teen's rights are being addressed. Teens have gone before judges in prior cases where they do not agree with their parents on medical issues. Teens do have legal recourse.

"The complaint further states that an investigation found that the parents temporarily stopped their child’s mental health counseling. And the therapist got an email from the mother saying they were seeking “Christian” therapy instead. The teen said he was forced to sit in a room and listen to Bible readings for over six hours at a time, according to the complaint."

The parents also forced him to wear dresses and go to Catholic school. That's enough to drive anyone crazy.

The hormone treatments aren't going to do anything towards getting the kid's parents to be more tolerant and accepting.
Which is quite likely a major contributor to the kid's depression and thoughts of suicide. In fact, they'll probably make *that* situation worse, not better.

I don't know the whole situation. I just think that using the treatments as a "cure-all" isn't going to solve this kid's problems, since a lot of them come from religious-nut parents who need to learn to love their child.

mentally it might.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mentally it might.

I agree. It MIGHT.

And it might not.

Which is why I think some compromises, some additional medical consultation, and taking some time are all worthwhile.

Forget the specifics of the treatment for a moment: would I subject my own child to a medical treatment that has some really nasty side-effects, likely would require them to stay on it for life, and is both expensive and controversial, because it MIGHT make SOME difference?

Probably not. At least not without a lot more consultation.

Like I said, this one's a tough call.

There could be any number of situations that this could apply, but for this purpose let's say that the treatment proposed is the best thing for the child. The instance where it is the best thing should never inform the times where it might not be the best thing.

The reason we legislate to respect individuality is because a collective has no concept of what it means to be an individual.

The elephant in the room is that by any objective definition, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. This is not a pejorative; it's a clinical definition. When your brain tells you that the reality it believes to be true differs from the actual body in which you dwell, this is a disorder.

The problem is that this specific form of dysphoria has become politicized and polarized. This does nothing but harm those who suffer from it. As with other forms of dysphoria, everybody will benefit if we get more tools in our tool chest, not fewer. But a vocal contingent will viciously attack anyone who strays off the One True Religion of acceptable remedies.

How would you respond to Chloe Jennings-White? The world generally accepted her transition from male to female as a good move for a person suffering from gender dysphoria. But now she's getting pushback on her mental stability due to her insistence that she also identifies as a paralyzed person. She cannot find a single doctor willing to sever her spinal cord so she can live according to the reality she experiences in her mind.

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/national-geographic-taboo-fake-paraplegic-chloe-jennings-white/

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The elephant in the room is that by any objective
> definition, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.
> This is not a pejorative; it's a clinical
> definition. When your brain tells you that the
> reality it believes to be true differs from the
> actual body in which you dwell, this is a
> disorder.
>
> The problem is that this specific form of
> dysphoria has become politicized and polarized.
> This does nothing but harm those who suffer from
> it. As with other forms of dysphoria, everybody
> will benefit if we get more tools in our tool
> chest, not fewer. But a vocal contingent will
> viciously attack anyone who strays off the One
> True Religion of acceptable remedies.

OK, regardless of how we define the "illness", how do we improve the "patient's" life? Do we adapt his body to his mind, or do we adapt the mind to the body? The teen in the OP identifies as male, always has and always will. It's not "do what the doctor says". It's many doctors.

Visitors Welcome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> OK, regardless of how we define the "illness", how
> do we improve the "patient's" life? Do we adapt
> his body to his mind, or do we adapt the mind to
> the body? The teen in the OP identifies as male,
> always has and always will. It's not "do what the
> doctor says". It's many doctors.

I’m all in for finding a solution that improves their life.
I’m not sure you’d find anyone who would claim a 17 year old is in a condition that will never change.

The problem is the limits of acceptable treatment. Surgical solutions are offered in the hope that a malady that originates in the brain will be remedied by a solution that makes no actual change to the brain. I’ve read accounts of some of the “transgender regret” M->F patients who said that post surgery, they found themselves still trapped in a man’s body, but with its genitalia removed.

I’m not aware of significant research that is ongoing for other, perhaps less drastic treatments. This is where the electric fence of the activists steps in. Suggestions that experimental forms of psychotherapy or psychotropic drugs be tested stray outside of acceptable bounds and will likely cause researchers to find protestors at their labs decrying their bigotry or hatred. It’s just not acceptable that this form of malady be treated as any other form of mental disorder.

And that’s sad. Millions of people who suffer from other types of mental disorders respond very well to drug treatments. I’m not sure why this specific type should be cordoned off as somehow exempt from attempts at that sort of treatment. If it could create a better life without permanently altering their bodies, it seems a great goal to work toward.

there are actual physical brain differences.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/where-transgender-is-no-longer-a-diagnosis/

http://time.com/4424589/being-transgender-is-not-a-mental-disorder-study/

You also mention "regret" and "detransition" without context or external forces:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html

"Surgical regret is actually very uncommon. Virtually every modern study puts it below 4 percent, and most estimate it to be between 1 and 2 percent (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfafflin 2003, Kuiper & Cohen-Kettenis 1998, Pfafflin & Junge 1998, Smith 2005, Dhejne 2014). In some other recent longitudinal studies, none of the subjects expressed regret over medically transitioning (Krege et al. 2001, De Cuypere et al. 2006).

These findings make sense given the consistent findings that access to medical care improves quality of life along many axes, including sexual functioning, self-esteem, body image, socioeconomic adjustment, family life, relationships, psychological status and general life satisfaction. This is supported by the numerous studies (Murad 2010, De Cuypere 2006, Kuiper 1988, Gorton 2011, Clements-Nolle 2006) that also consistently show that access to GCS reduces suicidality by a factor of three to six (between 67 percent and 84 percent)."


https://thinkprogress.org/endocrine-society-transgender-health-coverage-4e0dfc96c652/

"The Endocrine Society, an international organization of medical experts and biological researchers, has released a new set of guidelines for caring for transgender patients. Along with the guidelines, the organization has issued a position statement calling on federal and private insurers to cover the costs of all medical interventions a physician might prescribe for a transgender patient, including hormone replacement therapies and surgeries.

The updated guidelines and position statement reflect the latest research on gender identity and the shift away from understanding gender dysphoria as a mental illness. “Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity,” the statement reads. “Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity.”


Research has not exhaustively explained “the specific mechanisms guiding the biological underpinnings of gender identity,” but the Endocrine Society joins the “evolving consensus that being transgender is not a mental health disorder.” The statement notes the following findings from scientific studies:

Attempts to change an intersex person’s gender identity to match their anatomy are unsuccessful.
Identical twins are more likely to both be transgender than fraternal twins.
Individuals with XX chromosomes exposed to higher levels of androgens in utero are more likely to identify as transgender men, while individuals with XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are more likely to identify as transgender women.
Brain scans have found patterns across gender identity despite differences in external genitalia or chromosomes."


TMSH, medical opinion based on scientific research has changed on this issue.

You are illustrating my point.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2018 06:02AM by anybody.

Did you actually read your resource articles?

Denmark is a good example of why actual discussion on this is rarely fruitful.

If you follow the news, Iceland recently announced the country had become down-syndrome free. It was an amazing accomplishment and a fete Denmark previously announced it was moving toward.

What great medical breakthrough was uncovered to reach this?

None, actually. They simply started more aggressive prenatal testing and created a policy whereby every down-syndrome fetus was aborted. They simply defined down's syndrome out of existence.

That's what your studies are doing. In an effort to remove any stigma that may remain from struggling with transsexualism, many in the medical field are simply redefining it. They've declared it's no longer a malady, and voila, it's solved.

Feel free to think this is an entirely rhetorical problem, but reality will always come back to bite you. Just as with the woman who identifies as a quadriplegic in her healthy body, there's a disorder present when your mind embraces a reality that is different than the actual reality of your body. No amount of redefinition or policy changes can remove that. And we do no service to those struggling with it by taking entire valid treatment options off the table simply to feed a politically correct agenda. It's cruel.

Melania AFLAC Frankenstein Commercial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRgBhfBFUM

By pointing out the cold hard reality that not every human condition has a cure. And we sometimes add pain to misery when we insist otherwise.

Children and ideologues are about the only ones who feel otherwise.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The elephant in the room is that by any objective
> definition, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.
> This is not a pejorative; it's a clinical
> definition. When your brain tells you that the
> reality it believes to be true differs from the
> actual body in which you dwell, this is a
> disorder.
>
> The problem is that this specific form of
> dysphoria has become politicized and polarized.
> This does nothing but harm those who suffer from
> it. As with other forms of dysphoria, everybody
> will benefit if we get more tools in our tool
> chest, not fewer. But a vocal contingent will
> viciously attack anyone who strays off the One
> True Religion of acceptable remedies.
>
> How would you respond to Chloe Jennings-White? The
> world generally accepted her transition from male
> to female as a good move for a person suffering
> from gender dysphoria. But now she's getting
> pushback on her mental stability due to her
> insistence that she also identifies as a paralyzed
> person. She cannot find a single doctor willing to
> sever her spinal cord so she can live according to
> the reality she experiences in her mind.
>
> https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/nat
> ional-geographic-taboo-fake-paraplegic-chloe-jenni
> ngs-white/


Do we then get to provide Chloe with supplemental social security due to her rights as a disabled person?

I'm not necessarily agreeing that gender dysphoria is mental disorder. On the other hand, identifying as a paraplegic truly is bat-shit crazy in my opinion. I'm willing to draw the line here. A medical doctor who accedes to her wishes is violating any oath he or she took vowing to do no harm.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems people can be rational just about any
> other medical issue but if it involves sex
> rationality goes out of the window.

Indeed. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Transgender to me seems to be a form of mental illness.
They are no different than the folks that for some reason yearn to be disabled or have some obsession to be an amputee. Then cause an incident to maim themselves making it look like an accident. Or the folks that put bleach in their eyes and yearn to be blind for some oddball mental reason.

Then they have the nerve to apply for disability and make the taxpayers pay for their bullshit.


Yes, gays were accused to be mentally ill in the past too. They are not. There are plenty of homosexual behaviors in history. However, I'd like to the history professors point out transgender nonsense in the same way.

Cross dressing ---- isn't transgender.

Making there are just more imbeciles and impressionable mines that buy into the hollywood bullshit and promotion of this transgender movement that ultimately ruins traditional family organization to continue making humans.

Did you have a choice to be baptised into Mormonism? Did your parents make that choice for you?

Do you have emotional trauma from that choice?

Would your life had been better if you had made that decision when you were old enough to express your wishes?

Would you have said no - ?

Or do you think forcing a child to live with the wrong body is somehow for their own good?

But if the issue involves (a) sexuality and (b) children is it OK for parents to force these children into a way of life that they will not only reject but also imprisons them into a physical existence that is almost impossible to escape from?

BTW, the suicide rate for trans teens is around 40-50%.

I don't think you could *force* a kid to be trans any more than you can force a child not to be.

You mentioned culture and Hollywood. Many traditional cultures don't seem to have the same hangups that modern Western culture does.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/when-your-adult-child-breaks-your-heart/201703/strategies-supporting-transgender-child



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2018 08:32PM by anybody.

"Cross-dressing isn't transgender."

Transgender means, basically, that you find yourself (often from early childhood) living in the wrong kind of body.

Someone very dear to me is transgendered, and it took me years to understand. It's not anything they would wish on themselves. Some people can afford the gender-reassignment surgery, and can "pass" in their altered gender identity.

Some can't, and those are the tragic cases. I knew personally of a guy who went to Thailand or someplace in that general area for gender-reassignment surgery. He couldn't have passed, in a room full of blind people. Six-foot four, male-pattern receding hairline, deep voice. He committed suicide less than a year after going through surgical transition.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if time was of the essence?
>
> What if the teen's life would be severely impacted
> -- with life-long consequences -- because the
> parents want to deny treatment?
>
> Now what if the teen was trans?
>
> Does it matter if sexuality is involved or is the
> principle the same?
>
> http://ktla.com/2018/02/13/ohio-parents-seek-custo
> dy-to-stop-transgender-teen-from-having-hormone-tr
> eatment/

None if the what ifs matter. The answer is still no.

No, people should not have the right to deny medical treatment to any other people who may need it. They can do so for themselves, but they have no right to inflict it on their spouse, children, siblings, parents, grandkids, neighbours, pupils, disciples, domestic servants or what have you. Just as they have no right to inflinct mutilations, amputations, tattoos or circumcisions on other people.

Just my two cents.

This is such a loaded discussion and sometimes we struggle to separate what we would do ourselves from what should be the answer. In this case I support treating the child and at the same time support the parents in withholding the treatment. This idea that social attitudes and private ideals should be forced together by law is one of the worst ideas out there.

Anybody, I'm sure that you are aware that in the past there have been laws that have forced people into a specific way of treating other people. They were disastrous and are one of the reasons why the USA has trailed the rest of the first world in social rights. So while it is important to bring these situations up to demonstrate the harm and sometimes terror that parents can cause their children. We must respect and uphold individuality and the rights of individuality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 03:57PM by jacob.

unlike the stock case of Christian Scientists or Jehovah's Witnesses with an incapacitated child or family member, the individual in this case can speak for themselves and make their wishes known.

The parents claim or profess to claim for their biological daughter to exist as a male would violate their religious faith.

Should the faith of the parents outweigh the right of the child's right to self-determination?

The problem is that puberty begins before adult legal age.

Years ago, this wouldn't have mattered as there were no medical remedies but that's no longer the case. Medical science now makes it possible for trans kids to develop as naturally appearing adults of the same corresponding gender even though they are of the opposite biological sex.

As I've said, people normally listen to doctors and psychologists but when the same medical professionals tell them someone is trans they don't want to hear it. For me that's the most interesting part -- how people can be totally rational about some things and then totally irrational about something else.

For normal kids, puberty is just part of life.

For trans kids, it's hell -- and it's worse than the imagined hell religious parents think their children will go to if they are allowed to live as themselves.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2018 05:43AM by anybody.

I'm saying that presenting this semi obvious example obfuscates the very good reasons for being cautious about government involvement in deciding what is right.

I would argue that the father of this child is the real source of the depression and the courts have already agreed since the grandparents are the court appointed guardians. If I were a judge I wouldn't even rule on the parent's religious arguments and simply state that the court maintains that the grandparents are the legal guardians.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As I've said, people normally listen to doctors
> and psychologists but when the same medical
> professionals tell them someone is trans they
> don't want to hear it. For me that's the most
> interesting part -- how people can be totally
> rational about some things and then totally
> irrational about something else.

You've said it before and it's still true.

> For normal kids, puberty is just part of life.
>
> For trans kids, it's hell -- and it's worse than
> the imagined hell religious parents think their
> children will go to if they are allowed to live as
> themselves.

Right on. I wish those parents realized they have no idea what their child is going through.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In this case I
> support treating the child and at the same time
> support the parents in withholding the treatment.
> This idea that social attitudes and private ideals
> should be forced together by law is one of the
> worst ideas out there.

For me, the choice here is between choosing what the teen wishes for himself and what his parents wish for him. I am inclined to trust his judgment more because he has more experience: he knows what it is like to be himself. His parents only know what they would want him to be. Moreover, he is the one who has to live with the consequences of the choice. Making the wrong choice would affect him much more than his parents. I therefore trust him not to take things lightly. I'm not saying his parents are taking things likely, but their vision is undoubtedly clouded by their expectations.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure I've expressed myself well.

I understand what you are saying. However, teens are not known for their stellar judgment. That's why they are not generally held as accountable as adults are. The only major decision I made when I was 17 was where to go to college.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand what you are saying. However, teens
> are not known for their stellar judgment.

They may not be old enough to know if they can start a business, or should marry without a prenup, but I've never met a teenager who was unsure about his gender. For most it is the sex of their birth, for some it is the other one, but they are way past any doubt by that time.

And as anybody said, time is running out in this case. Starting hormone treatment at 16 or 18 can make a lot of difference. Someone in my family had a driver whose son turned out to be transsexual. Thankfully the family was supportive and she could start hormone treatment at 16. Operations were done a few years later and she became a stunning woman. Nobody ever suspects anything.

Not always as this is just a general rule.

Sadly, I've known quite a few people who joined mromonism as teens because they wanted quick acceptance in a social group. They were courted and petted until reaching adulthood when they finally figured out they'd been had. Their parents should have stepped in, got the facts, and warned them early in the process. It wouldn't be as hard for an adult to see through the peer pressure as for a young teen.

Teens have undeveloped brains until 25. That's why they aren't able to make adult decisions, at least until 18/21 (and even then, most young adults from 18-25 make some poor choices those first few years, I know I did). The transgender thing is something I honestly don't support. Gender is binary, there's males and females (rare intersex conditions are biological disorders where something went wrong in fetal development). An adult male is a man, an adult female is a woman. That's just reality. A man who wants to act/dress like a woman is still a man. Same for a woman who want to act/dress like a man. It's impossible to be "born in the wrong body" and this is why I say so: from the moment a person is conceived, their sex is predetermined. Every person alive exists because a specific, unique sperm fertilized an egg. That sperm was either carrying XY (which led to the creation of a male) or XX (which created a female). If someone with XY chromosomes (aka a male) wishes he was a female, it's entirely impossible for that to have ever happened because if an XX-carrying sperm had fertilized his mother's egg, an entirely different person would've been created and he would've never existed. So when someone says they were "born in the wrong body", sorry, that's a ridiculous statement. Hence why gender identity disorder is a DISORDER. A mental disorder. Even with all the surgeries and hormones in the world cannot change a person's gender. I believe a boy who likes dolls, pink, and tutus is absolutely fine and should be loved as he is. I believe a girl who likes trucks, blue, and tools is absolutely fine and should be loved as she is. To tell that boy or that girl that they are "in the wrong body" and prescribe their otherwise-healthy body with cross-sex hormones and surgical mutilation of healthy parts is a medical scam as well as a tragedy. The transgender medical hype is in large part a money-maker; transgender-identified people are lifelong customers! There's no longterm data on what all this treatment is doing to these people; we do know that in shortterm analysis of outcomes that blood clots, cancers, and other problems are associated with transgender "treatment". Why? Because their body wasn't meant to be subjected to surgical mutilations and cross-sex hormones. Plus, "post-op" trans-identified people commit suicide at the same rate as "non-op"; there's also the issue with loneliness and singleness common to trans people. I think telling a person suffering from body dysphoria that they are indeed the opposite sex is the same as telling an anorexic with body dysmorphia that "yes, you are fat because you strongly identify as a fat person". I feel so bad for teens who buy into the transgender cult-think and get it in their heads they should undergo medical treatment. They don't need medical treatment, they need counseling and need to learn how to love themselves as they are because anything less is buying into a lie. A boy who wants to be a girl is not a girl, a girl who wants to be a boy is not a boy. No matter how bad they think they want it or how much they falsely believe they are "in the wrong body", it really doesn't matter. Teens should not be allowed to make such a life-altering decision. If adults choose to, I feel sorry for them, but they're adults and right now the medical community is more than happy to take their money to help them live an illusion. I think in the future all this "transgender" garbage will be looked at as medical and ethical barbarism. I've known several trans-identified people, one who is dead now because of poor life choices; I miss him terribly. If a teen can't even make the legal decision to smoke a cigarette or go to a bar, why should they be making permanent changes to their body? Hell, a teen can't even get a tattoo without parental consent because it's considered too permanent of a choice for a teenager to make. So I'm siding with the parents on this one; they are absolutely right to deny transgender procedures for their teenage child.