Ended up at the MGTOW-website but I could not come to terms with their generalization about women. So I turn to this forum to get some kind of understanding what is going on with women who are living their life on a pedestal.

I know about the passive women controlled by men but I do not know so much about the women who do not hesitate to turn the world up-side down wherever they roam.

For about twenty years I have known a group of women that now are about 40-45 years of age. They are career-women and doing great things in life except that they seem to be completely oblivious how bad they behave. They are locked into the same mind-framework they had when they were teenagers and they keep doing one thing that stand out every time year after year:

They totally rob other people of their dignity, they take other peoples self-love, self-respect, self-acceptance and they react violently when people hurted by them protect themself by pointing out their transgressions. They never forget any slight even if the slight was caused by others peoples reaction to their social awkwardness.

It is like they are in psychosis because of insane double-standards. They can not grasp the concept that they are the ones wrecking social havoc and hurting people. This thing goes on and on and they can not just stop.

It is confusing and I had to rethink my contact with these people because I feel like they are stuck in their teen-age years.

What on earth is going on? Thye seem to be smart but very stupid at the same time.

I know lots of other women and they are not like this at all.

I'm finally done with her. I'm 60. Think how long I put up with her bullshit because I was her sister and it was my job. Her stories don't even match up with the truth. I was very close to her kids and I've lost them in the mess, but I just can't deal with her any longer.

My other sister wreaks a lot of havoc, too. She has to have drama in her life.

My boyfriend says I'm not like other women. I knew him when I was 20 and now have been with him for 13 years (since 47). I'm rather passive, but push me far enough and I'll explode. Personally, I get along better with men. I have lots of male friends. I've worked for females and males, and I'd take males over females any time. I'm not a feminist in the least.

Not much you can do with any narcissist but stay away from them if possible.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm finally done with her. I'm 60. Think how long
> I put up with her bullshit because I was her
> sister and it was my job. Her stories don't even
> match up with the truth. I was very close to her
> kids and I've lost them in the mess, but I just
> can't deal with her any longer.
>
> My other sister wreaks a lot of havoc, too. She
> has to have drama in her life.
>
> My boyfriend says I'm not like other women. I knew
> him when I was 20 and now have been with him for
> 13 years (since 47). I'm rather passive, but push
> me far enough and I'll explode. Personally, I get
> along better with men. I have lots of male
> friends. I've worked for females and males, and
> I'd take males over females any time. I'm not a
> feminist in the least.
>
> Not much you can do with any narcissist but stay
> away from them if possible.

I'm like that, too, cl2. I have always gotten along better with men and always had plenty of men friends. Much less drama.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2018 12:29PM by Aquarius123.

Same for me.

I work with someone like that.

She's very manipulative to go with her narcissism, and actually very successful at what she does because she'll bad mouth everyone else around her to make herself shine more. Doesn't matter who it is. She'll bad mouth the CEO and managers over her when they aren't within ear shot.

Her favorite play? Wicked. LOLOLOL. It fits her to a tee.

And as far as "understanding female Narcissists," what you'll see is a "mask" that is often superficially charming but a lot of "drama" is acted out (with actual denial keeping their "conscience at bay"; we see female narcissists often "bonding" with dysfunctional sorts such as alcoholics because they can control and manipulate them; one AA "legend" I know described them as belonging to the church of "Our Lady of Perpetual Revenge."

That's about as accurate as anything; we all operate to some extent on a "narcissistic continuum," but the degree it is manifest essentially characterizes the "severity of the pathology."

If you know a woman in her 30's or 40's and she's still "behaving as a teenager," then you're probably dealing with a narcissist... It's "normal" for 12-14 year old girls to act in such a fashion, but if it persists, then it's decidedly "characterological."

Narcissist of both sexes are "chameleons," and they are skilled at adapting to the dysfunction around them (which they help perpetuate). They also "pick" their victims; what I discovered about myself was it wasn't my "worst qualities" they were exploiting (although they were often quick to point them out); it was my best ones...

Thank you all for replying!

One thing I noticed is that they see themselves as the "best" friend ever but they are at the core very bad at acknowledging their friends and the friends that over time start to highlight that absurdity are soon deemed by the Narcissists to be bad friends.

You can never win. They will never get it. Just leave them.

I left a Narcissistic sibling a couple of weeks ago and I have heard that she says that I am hiding from her.

The most TBM females from my family of origin (my mother and a sister of mine) are the biggest narcissists I've ever met. I've been pulling back from interacting with them too much because they are ripping the family apart in their wake of wrath and they don't see it at all. They think everyone else is the problem and that they are saints. It's so deluded.

I'll always be the bad guy. I'm always the one at fault. Oh, yes, I'm the scapegoat. I'm the identified patient. I go for therapy and they don't, so I must be the crazy one.

When she left home, I was surprised at how easy it was to control my anger. I didn't talk to her for years until she had a baby and needed me. I took care of those kids and my parents did, too. She neglected them. They hated her. Now we're the bad guys. Both my sisters threw me out of the family after our dad died. My parents had it figured out when they died, but I think oftentimes they didn't know what to do with the one sister, so they left it to me to take care of her. She was 17 months older than I was. She made my school years a living hell.

She was director of nursing at a good-sized local hospital.

I remember one day, she came home fuming angry because another alpha-female type had tried to take over Mother's physical spot at the nurses' station. Mother related triumphantly that she had "hipped" the wannabe back to her "proper" place.

Yep, that was Mom to a T. If she couldn't whip you into shape verbally, you were shoved physically.

I have a sister. Here's the pattern. She's always right, and she's better and smarter than her siblings. No one is allowed to disagree withe her on any point. She has a new plan for happiness every six months, and you'd better not question it. She's Mormon, she's not Mormon, then she's Mormon again. If you can't guess her current mindset, she yells at you. We split a few years ago. I cannot guess her current mindset.

This sounds exactly like my spouse's two sisters. But they're both never mos. One joined the Catholic church in her mid 20s. The other is into really bizarre new agey stuff and thinks she has some special power to psychically heal people as well as read their fate in their hands and feet.

I once had it explained to me.

A narcissist's rationalisation of interacting with you:

"That never happened
and
If it did, that's not how it happened
and
Even if it did, it wasn't as bad as you think
and
If you think that, it's all your own fault."

Fits perfectly when you look back on your encounters with narcissists in your life.

Nice post OzDoc!

It is like the Ns are thoughtless, unforgiving and reckless while treating other people badly but on the other hand the Ns expect other people to be thoughtful, forgiving, understanding and caring.

They do not take responsibility for their actions even if they try to convey the picture that they have control over everyone and everything.

I have this female sibling that never listens to me and she is a loose cannon socially and I have no right according to her to point that out. She tells me that I get everything wrong all the time and I am the one that cause all the trouble. She is addicted to solipsism.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a sister. Here's the pattern. She's always
> right, and she's better and smarter than her
> siblings. No one is allowed to disagree withe her
> on any point. She has a new plan for happiness
> every six months, and you'd better not question
> it. She's Mormon, she's not Mormon, then she's
> Mormon again. If you can't guess her current
> mindset, she yells at you. We split a few years
> ago.

> I cannot guess her current mindset.
Ummmmm perhaps intolerable toxic pathological bitch would be a good guess ???

Read "Games People Play" by Eric Berne. It will give you insight into male and female behavior to the extreme.

http://rrt2.neostrada.pl/mioduszewska/course_2643_reading_3.pdf

I’d like to know the difference between female narcissists and male narcissists beyond the, you know...

My real concern is that you’re getting your information about ‘female narcissists’ from a mgtow website.

Agree. It was the website I found first through google but the jargon on the website turned on my alarm-signal. Many guys digging into the problems of life.

My personal problem is at the core codependency. I have adapted most of my life the past years to my N sister and my N brother-in-law. I made some great mistakes personally and in a way I have been the other side of the coin and my dependecy have danced along with the narcissism. Unhealty for all of us. I jut wanted to get out of the circular-problem and I have lately noticed my lack of understanding just as the Ns lack their understanding.

So I am moving in another direction.

It's a bit dated, but Timmen Cermak's "Diagnosing and Treating Codependency" offers a valuable "montage" of the dynamics...

My take is that codependents--described as "a woman's basic programming" but there are men who are codependent as well--often unconcsciously relegate their own "internal demons" to the narcissist (who, as I noted, are skilled at "picking" their victims).

I know that when I started attending Al-Anon groups in addition to AA, I hated that word motives... The solution appears to be to detach, as you've done, and look at your own role and seek changes.

I wish you well, and feel free to remind me of my own advice from time to time. I still need it...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2018 11:33AM by SL Cabbie.

Hi!

Yeah I must move away from this context. Even if that I think more and more that we got the same problem at the core we live on different levels and do not understand each other. I am happy getting small alms in life but the narc needs greater riches. But at the core we need the same thing but we can not give it to each other because of difference in scale when it comes to means.

I'm definitely co-dependent. I think I learned it from being raised with my sister just 17 months older.

My dad kept apologizing in his last few years about the fact that my sister demanded their attention as a little girl and so they left me in the crib as I would entertain myself. He kept telling me stories about it.

I do tend to gravitate towards narcissists sad to say. No wonder I was one of the longest holdouts in my family leaving the lds church.

I was married to one for 20 years, so I'm an expert, lol

Now divorced.

They lack empathy, but they act like they are highly empathetic. But it's all an act, and they only do it for show, "look how good I am"

All facade, no substance.

They thrive in the performance based cult of Mormonism.

I could go on and on...

But just walk away, and don't look back.

I went to a shrink for six years and the method used was dialogue. A conversation. With a narcissist there is only a monologue and the narcissist say that he or she "understand" but there is never any listening.

I know, right.

Arguments would only end when I acknowledged her side. She wasn't interested in my side.

I became acutely aware , some folks are different, possibly from the start.

This is actually possible.
I cited articles earlier about mirror cells in brain imagining studies amongst seriel killers or prisoners.they found among children, rare conduct disorder or oppositional defiant type: were lacking empathy. ITSs like they were growing up with no conscience possible.

So if you are in the presence of an adult apparently without empathy, WITHOUT conscience, run (politely so they dont follow you or notice you.) And avoid them: Rewrite your life. Reroute your routine. Avoid & refuse to interact with them regularly.

Look up psychopaths on the internet. The behaviors the OP described also sound as if they fit the profile of a psychopath. Psychopaths are not necessarily crazy killers. Martha Stout estimated about 4% of humans are pschopaths and many are successful in business. Here is a recent internet article from Psycology Today that summarizes the characteristics of a psychopath. All the guidance online in dealing with psychopaths is to limit your exposure to them because they will cause damage, sometimes irreparable, to your charactor and mental well-being.

Here are five things psychopaths do:

1. They're extremely charming.

Psychopaths are almost always well-liked. They come across as delightful people great at making small talk. Their quick wit tends to draw people to them. They usually have interesting stories as well. Their convincing tales portray them in a favorable, yet believable light. People walk away from conversations with a psychopath feeling pretty good.

2. They don't experience remorse.

A lack of guilt might be the first red flag that signals someone might be a psychopath. Psychopaths aren't capable of feeling any genuine remorse. They don't accept any responsibility for hurting other people's feelings. Instead, they blame other people and deny responsibility. A psychopath may say that someone "deserved" to be treated poorly. Or, they may shrug off reports that they offended someone by saying, "She needs to be less sensitive," or "I guess he can't handle the truth."

3. They're really arrogant.

Psychopaths have an inflated sense of importance. Much like narcissists, they think the usual rules don't apply to them. They also tend to have grandiose ideas about their potential. They believe they deserve to be the CEO, or they're convinced they're the best at everything they do.

4. They take big risks.

Psychopaths have little regard for safety, especially other people's. They often lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead. This behavior can be especially toxic. While not all psychopaths engage in illegal activity, those who do plan their crimes well in advance. Their misconduct is usually well-organized, and they leave few clues behind. Psychopaths tend to be very intelligent, which makes them great con artists.


5. They're master manipulators.

They don't experience genuine emotions toward others. But they can mimic other people's emotions, and often they come across as very genuine. As a result, their loved ones often have no idea they're incapable of truly caring for other people.

Psychopaths are really good at manipulating other people's emotions. They flatter others in a subtle yet effective manner, and before long they persuade others to do things they wouldn't normally do. They also use guilt trips or gain sympathy to meet their needs.

Wow—that describes one of my former bosses so exactly. He ruined people’s lives and caused me to have both physical and emotional health issues.

I see this kind of thing frequently with Mormon women. It may be true that they're narcissists or psychopaths. Or, it may also be that their emotional and mental development is stopped in their teenage years. That kind of thing can happen when one is told how to think/what to do for their entire life, and discouraged to think for themselves. As a result, they navigate through life in a very immature state. But they think it's normal, because it's all they've ever known; they've never progressed to a "higher" level of functioning, and in many ways, they're probably doing the best they can. Associating with people like this is a big challenge, to be sure.

> They totally rob other people of their dignity,
> they take other peoples self-love, self-respect,
> self-acceptance

Maybe, they take these things from other people because they don't know how to attain them from within. All their validation is external. In a way, they're like parasites. They take from others because they have none of their own. It's how they survive, and it's the only way they know how.

> and they react violently when people hurted by them protect
> themself by pointing out their transgressions. They never
> forget any slight even if the slight was caused by others
> peoples reaction to their social awkwardness.

In my experience, when people react violently & defensively for their bad behaviors, it's usually because they're deeply insecure and/or ashamed. They're protecting themselves, and probably projecting their deep and subconscious issues onto you.

This made it all surreal as a codependent. Because I could never say no and I was afraid of causing any dent on the relationship and was walking on egg-shells. I could never understand why they never understood me. It seems to me now that they can not.

Tried to visualize the problem so I understand my codependency.

I imagine that a codependent and a narcissist have the same problem at the core. It is a question about self-esteem. The narc builds large imaginary edifices to boost self-esteem but there are never enough pieces so it always seem to fall and need to be rebuilt again and again.

The codependent have lost almost every hope of building grand edficies in life and the codependent is happy if he or she even owns just one or two building blocks. She tries to stay friendly with the narc so that he or she can feel hope for the future.

The narc always need the codependents building blocks and feel that the codependent is mean withholding blocks he or she need to build or conserving her grand edifices. They can never stop growing.

The codependent feels helpless because he or she can never really keep any of her blocks. They are always stolen. That is what I feel.

They both got the same problem but there is a difference in scale so they never understand each other. The Codependent can not understand why a narc with so many building blocks can be so unhappy and he or she think the narc is crazy in the head making so much fuzz about just a few blocks. It is humiliating always losing blocks.

Ego. Doesn't matter the sex.

M@t

You are correct.

Psychopaths/Narcissists have no conscience. They are born that way and no amount of hope will change this innate nature. Lack of conscience allow them to behave in heinous ways towards others as they lack empathy in their mental toolset. That is why all the guidance advises those with conscience and empathy limit their interactions with psychopaths because they play by very difference rules geared towards their success and your failure.

They damage all human relationships without a care in the world and are masters at mimicking emotions they just cannot and do not feel. They lie to you and give you the perception they are acting on your behalf as they damage your reputation and your trust and make you feel everything is your fault. They lie about factual matters and twist the truth to the point that you become disoriented about the truth you know and their version of events. This is why they are so dangerous to associate with.

I worked for a psychopathic boss and experienced all the above.

Personality disorders. There's a lot of overlap; narcissists have more of a pervasive "sense of grandiosity and entitlement," and they don't have much of a conscience, at least when their own agendas are involved.

Sociopaths have no conscience at all, and the profession with the highest incience of that personality type is the CEO...

Just a bit of nitpicking....

As the old psychologist said during my clinical internship days: "My considered opinion is this individual is definitely f**ked up."

It is okay to use the word, "evil", in regards to bad men and bad women.

Essentially criminals that destroy lives in ways that happen to be legal.

Does anyone want to confess to being a narcissist?

Isn't it likely there are a few here? Are they self-aware?

Asked myself that question because my life also has been filled with an urge for external validation. Am I narcissist? In some degree. But I doubt that I feel that I am a grandeur person. Still stuck at first base after all the years. I just want to have the same right as my narcisstic siblings and relatives to voice my opinion in a decent manner without hearing them say that I am wrong and do not get it.

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone want to confess to being a narcissist?

I do not know about that ....because I am not a narcissist.

For those who are narcissists, they are not too concerned with what being a narcissist would be like, or not, because being them is so great that they are not concerned with much else.

We used to have a clinical psychologist who visited here who recognized as one's awareness of the various disorders grew, added "sub-clinical, of course." She also noted, "Narcissists are incapable of truly believing in God because they're too busy being God."

Recovery from addiction (and membership in the LDS Church qualifies as an addiction in my book) is a subject I've bet my life on for almost 40 years. Clearly active addiction--which is a progressive disease--brings out the "narcissistic worst" in its victims. Of course without the genetic component (per Dr. Drew Pinsky) the narcissism can still exist and "thrive," and as noted, there are elements of codependency which are clearly part of the narcissistic spectrum. The DSM puts addictive disorders in a separate category, but there are lots of common elements. On the whole, narcissists fare poorly in treatment and psychotherapy because the denial runs extremely deep and there are huge payoffs for continuing the behaviors.

when their specific intent is to never be understood ???

Ouch. That is very true. Good one!

I lived with one for a year. Words cannot express the supreme mindf#** it turned out to be. After months of therapy, I don't know if I will ever recover from it. It is supremely soul crushing, and not just to me. The wave of destruction she wages everywhere she goes. It's breathtaking. I stipulate I come to this with some issues from my childhood that are unresolved that made me vulnerable to it.

My warning to others, especially men- when you see a woman who ever lovebombs you or puts you up on a pedestal somehow-- BEWARE AT PERIL OF YOUR LIFE

My therapist tells me I dodged a bullet- and in a way I did because I didn't marry her or end up with children with her. But still the damage is done

I read a good paper on "Cluster B" personality types in the JAMA, and the title was The Mask of Sanity. Interesting, the use of the word "Mask." Do not feel stupid, if you are duped by a psychopath or Narcissist--they wear the mask well!

Thank you all for your good advice! It is spot-on!

My Narcissistic SIL majored in theater and drama at BYU, and performed in many community plays and operas. My MIL was a sociopath, who married my FIL for his money, and brought about the ruin of her brother's marriage, and tried to ruin mine, too, in the hopes that her brother and son would hook up with a Mormon wives. She blamed me and the brother's wife for our husbands' leaving the Mormon cult. She used to call me every Sunday morning, with her crazy rants about, "It's a wife's responsibility to provoke her husband to righteousness."

(As for the men, my older brother was a psychopath who beat me, yet always convinced my parents it was MY fault. He had the sympathy of my parents and the entire ward, because he was bullied at school. Turned out that my brother was doing the bullying--molesting little girls--which made the brothers and friends gang up to try to stop my brother. He never changed. I married another psychopath, a handsome RM who smiled and flattered his way into my family's confidence. I got tired of being smothered by him, and when I tried to break up with him, he cried, and threatened to kill himself. He and my brother could cry real tears, on cue. I married this man, despite my gut-reaction, and everyone said I just had "wedding jitters." This wife-beater had beaten his sister, previously. He starred in high school musicals and plays, and was All State in football--a real performer. My second Mormon husband was voted "Most Talented" in his high school, for his acting ability. He was in some plays and musicals at BYU.)

Trust your gut, over anything a psychopath says. The body language will tell you more than words, which are usually lies. If someone lies a lot, or even once or twice, that's a red flag!

Narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths are all "Cluster B" personality disorders. The ones I mentioned are all deceased, now, but they NEVER STOPPED.

I also have a TBM nephew who imbe money from the family business. He then moved on to stealing from his grandfather, his two uncles, on two separate occasions, and tried to steal from me (I sued him), and he still hasn't run out of "overly nice" family members, on all sides. He cries and pleads poverty, and his TBM victims forgive him. Cluster B's never admit to any wrong-doing. Every one of the 5 guidelines on Evergreennotloggedin's list applies to all the people I mentioned.

Also, not one of these people changed, in the slightest! They don't WANT to change, and get furious if someone suggests they get psychological help. I agree with the poster who said that the narcissists get too much reward for their behavior. Many of these people end up on the street, because their families and employers can not deal with them.

Don't give psychopaths too much credit for being intelligent. There's something self-destructive in their behavior, like the list said, and they like to take foolish risks. They often behave like buffoons. I think this is due to lack of empathy and feedback from others. Nothing governs their behavior. The rules don't apply to them.

6 Psychopaths hurt me and my family, and they got away with it! All were lifetime TBM's, with high church callings, from "good TBM families." Not ONE admission of wrong-doing, not one apology, not one attempt to change their ways.

I had to go to therapy for PTSD, caused by my older brother in childhood, and my wife-beater first husband. One of the first things my psychiatrist said was:

These people do not love you. They never did love you.

This is good to know, as the psychopath/narcissist will declare her love for you, over and over again.

My psychiatrist would not tell me what to do, but after 4 years of therapy, the only solution was for me to cut off all contact with all of the Cluster B's. They were still alive. Yes, they maligned me and gossiped about me, but I moved away, and was able to get on with my life.

NO CONTACT.

I highly recommend it.

Sorry you have to deal with people like this.

What do you think about this theory?

There are gaps between the "masks" the narcissist wears and the Narcissists do not know what they are doing really between the masks they show up when they are causing mayhem.

They have no complete picture and underestimate peoples capacity to see the contradictions they perform.

First they are "high and mighty" against someone that naturally choose to defend him or herself, suddenly another mask are put on and that mask shows "the victim" instead of the "High and mighty".

Personally I have seen this happen over a period of a few minutes and the Narcissist do not think that people would identify the sudden switch or understand the whole and contradictory picture. The Narcissist have no clue and that would I say from experience is a absurd thing that makes people pull their hair.

I have had a number of toxic people fall into my life. The problem I struggle with in "No Contact" is it causes two huge problems I can't resolve. First, when you cut off contact you isolate yourself and Secondly, it makes it difficult to relate with other people who are still interacting with that toxic person.

So let's take one example, say your narcissist who is harming you is your father. How can you cut off contact? Especially when you still have to deal with family members and friends who still interact with your narcissistic father?

Or let's say you have children with a narcissist? I have heard one former therapist say that this can cause that father to want to end his life because he cannot resolve the guilt of having placed those little souls into the world in such a toxic environment, she writes: "Don't hate your dad for leaving when you were young. For most, it was a very tough choice for him to make. Ask yourself instead, did he have a warm, loving place to come home to after working all day? Did Mother respect and adore him~ or did she routinely break his balls?...There are men who feel unbearable guilt when they contemplate leaving. Their only way of exiting a toxic relationship without invoking that feeling, is to become sick and die."


https://twitter.com/PsychSavant/status/944866940908171265

I have literally seen this happen with my own eyes. I have seen a man in his prime so degraded, so isolated, so ground to a dust by a narcissistic wife.
On the flip side, I have seen someone grow up in a narcissist home when the mother didn't have the wherwithal to leave and the children become broken shells, great struggles with their wellbeing and mental health.

I am very earnest about this question- How can you possibly go "NO CONTACT" and not isolate yourself or damage other non-narcissist relationships?

Any thoughtful answers will be greatly appreciated

My plan is to always tell my siblings children that their parents love them very much. They do love their children and my grandiose BIL put his guard down when he is with them. He is bat-shit crazy in some ways.

They are out of money after years of excess living on credit and he pouts more and more. When he can not fill his hole in life he seems to fall into becoming a helpless person. He is often intoxicated though and on pain-killers so he can not always be there with them.

It seems to me that their kids will be the most natural channel to sooth out many unpolished things in their life.

My narcissistic sister send her kids over to me and my family when she have manipulated or raged at me but she have never said any bad words about me to them. So I will do my part and tell them that they shall always listen to their parents and that their parents love them unconditionally and will do forever and ever.

I helped raise my niece and nephews. Their mother was very controlling. Her kids spent a lot of time with my parents and I. In fact, most weekends we'd meet her halfway between Idaho and here and the kids would spend time with us. It goes on and on and on, the tale, so I'll stop there.

I chose not to have much to do with her when she went off to college. Then when she had her daughter, then she needed our help. So I became very close to her kids. Her daughter lived with me after high school and her oldest son lived with my parents after high school. The second son lived with his future in-laws during junior year and then got an after-school job and an apartment his senior year. She threw him out of the house on my phone at 11 p.m. with my kids listening (and having to go to school the next day). She now says she never threw him out. Her kids have each other and are in her life nowadays. Her daughter used to tell me, "She means well." Sure she does.

I've cut her off 3 times. More than that as I think about it. I can't do it anymore. I can't have her in my life. She is destructive. Her kids all smoke and drink and my therapist said that they will until they tell her to F off. She has her grandkids keep track of their parents' smoking habits and report back to her. Her kids are all out of mormonism.

Anyway, I have lost my relationships with my niece and nephews, which has been very painful to me. I haven't expected my kids to cut off their relationships with her or her kids because if they cut her off, then they can't talk to her kids and they were raised almost like siblings. My daughter just got home from Tennessee after 6 weeks and will be leaving for Alaska in 3 weeks, but she just announced to me that she is going to visit my niece and she will be seeing my sister. Last summer, my sister worked in Alaska with her. She got them (sister and husband) jobs up there. It was hell for me. We had a lot of drama going on in the family at the time over my sister spending my disabled brother's money. My kids don't like my sister, never have, but she is a necessary evil if they want to be close to their cousins. My son has come close to telling her off, but hasn't yet.

I just can't have her in my life. If I'm in her life, I get the brunt of everything. She has made my life a living hell ALL MY LIFE. I didn't need a bully at school, I had a bully who lived with me 24/7 and she was only 17 months older so she kept me in line,made me feel like a piece of shit. Everything is always my fault. Always will be. I could write a book.

I've been through enough with my situation with being in a gay/straight marriage. My life has not been pleasant. I deserve to NOT HAVE HER IN MY LIFE anymore. My dad told me several times just before he died--as he finally started seeing the truth--to STAY AWAY FROM HER.

Do you feel grief? I do. A feeling of grief Like there is no hope ever having a normal conversation again. It just like all there is a circular problem, a meaningless blame game.

I'm struck first off by you seeming to think that all women are (or should be) the same. And that these particular individuals you mention are some kind of "aberration" regarding what all women should be.

I mean, you do realize that women are all individuals, right?
And that narcissists are narcissists, whether they're male or female?

Agree 100% with you. Through google I found the MGTOW site but late on the jargong on that page and the feedback here on this forum made things much more clearer. I am less bitter in my mind.

Houlder Wrote:
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> I am less bitter in my mind.

Always a good thing! :)

I don't believe narcissists are real, except for a way to make yourself out to be a victim, or to avoid facing your own self-centeredness. Instead, I think it's better to think about why you might be attracting so many people you think are "narcissists" and address your own apparent issues.

My personal problem is that I also choosed to wear a "mask" socially because I feared the result doing something else. My mistakes are just the other side of the coin. We flipped the coin together. Yuge mistake and I got self-inflicted issues.

If you *really* want to understand narcs of both genders I recommend:

Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited
Samuel Vaknin

Note: This is a big book and a serious read, not a comic book.

He has a ton of YouTube vids if you like the audio channel.

Vaknin - an Israeli self aware narc - knows this question and its answers like nobody else.

If you wanna get narcs spend some time and you can learn it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2018 10:40PM by Mårv Fråndsen.

Many thanks for this homework assignment. The author Sam Vaknin is a very valuable resource. I've dived into a rabbit hole now trying to learn

I think a better way for my situation with my narcicists is not "NO CONTACT" but rather MOVE ON and FIGHT intelligently

One of the best ways to defeat a narcicist is to thwart their impulse to destroy you and rather to show you are still fighting and still winning, and I can't really get away from some of my narcicists anyway