I got a flyer left on my front door this week, with the information below. I think I'll attend.
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For thirty years, Dr Wilder and her husband Michael were active members of the LDS church and held numerous leadership positions. Their 4 children were all faithful and active in the church, with their oldest serving missions in Russia, Denmark, and Florida. In 1999, the Wilder family moved to Utah, where Dr. Wilder was offered a prestegious position at BYU. Then in 2006, everything changed. Come hear them share their story.

Fri, Feb 23 at 7PM
Calvary North
14201 N. 32nd St.
Phoenix, AZ 85032
calvarynorth.com
602-992-6922

It'll be the first time I sat in a largely LDS audience since I had my name removed, 28 years ago. I imagine there will probably be a lot of Jesus freaks there too, probably including the Wilders. Maybe they'll all be good people to associate with though. It should be an interesting way to spend a Friday evening. Has anyone here seen her speak before?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2018 01:03AM by azsteve.

Her autobiography, "Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church" is a good read, the Christian side to Kay Burningham's atheistic "An American Fraud: A Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism." I've read, and enjoyed, both.

I think she is a big time evangelical christian and very tight with Shawn mccraney. If I’m remembering correctly.

When I watched a few of her youtube videos, she seemed to quite accurately present mormon beliefs and culture with every thing she said. The only thing that bothered me was how she and others in those videos emphasize and belittle the word "earn" (as in earning your salvation) when talking about works vs grace, when discussing the phrase 'saved by grace, after all we can do'. To me it's all semantics.

How many parents would threaten to kill their children if the children are not obediant (metaphor for heaven vs hell)? Did you obey your parents because you loved them, or because you learned to respect the boundaries they set for you (grace vs works)? How do children turn out who are raised through threats of violence (metaphor for hell or outer-darkness)? So the whole 'grace vs works' arguement is a stupid arguement any way. Either god loves us and we're going to grow up to be like him, or he is an abusive parent and we're on our own. I don't buy the scare tactics or the science-fiction story lines that most churches tie to salvation.

The mormon doctrine "after all you can do" is an obvious error because NOBODY has done ALL they could do. The Christian belief is that grace makes up the difference between what we do do and perfection. Simple math.

From an atheist's perspective, yes, it is just semantics, Steve. But as a Christian, it does count. LDS's position, "saved by grace, AFTER all we can (or must?) do, is quite different from "Saved by grace, and grace alone." The latter makes participation in the faith life a matter of meaning, and gratitude.It matters
in how we see, define, and organize our world view.

You may consider "rights endowed by our Creator" to be a semantic matter, but it matters large in philosophical/theological/Constitutional discussions. If they are sourced from something, or SomeBody beyond the human pale, then they cannot be revoked--they are innate. If not, then they are human-derived, and humans can bestow, restrict, or revoke them.

Given your well-established predilections on the matter, Steve, I applaud your giving Wilder a fair hearing.

I do believe in inalienable rights, endowed by our creator. But it is interesting to note that most of those inalienable rights were sourced from a body of works called 'natural law' (look it up). This may sound like an athiest statement but it's not. The chain of authority is all-important in mormonism, even if theirs is fraudulant. But Natural Law seems to have been sourced by men who simply wanted to bring equality and fairness to their world. The dogma of some religious organizations can be dangerous. But somehow for me certain "inalienable rights endowed by our creator", that is inspired and worth dieing for, if necessary.

I didn't realize that some people's religious beliefs could be bothered by calling the discussion of 'faith vs works' a stupid arguement. I am not an athiest and didn't mean to offend anyone here. So sorry if anyone was offended.

When I left mormonism, I simply decided that god was not a mormon, and that a lot of what the church leaders in Salt Lake teaches is crap. At that point, the whole plan of salvation logically becomes unclear because the source of what you used to believe in has been discredited. So then, you just have faith. Whatever the plan is, it applies to billions of us, and everything is probably going to be okay. At the same time, I feel like an adult now, not a child. I don't take threats well, and I don't believe in santa claus anymore either. And after a lifetime of mormonism, some religious principles that I used to believe in still work for me and seem to be good in general. So I kept those and dump the ones that are unreasonable. I think that grace and works, work together as complimentary tools toward the same goal.

I'll give the Wilders a fair hearing. More than that, it's likely that I stand to learn something from them, whether or not I agree with their overall premise. It's very likely that they're just like myself, looking to improve both their own lives, and those of others where they can.

...in the Bible on the subject. Here is what the Bible says about how to gain salvation. Just pick the ones you like and ignore the rest:

Moses and the prophets are sufficient for salvation (Luke 16:29-31). BUT It is only through Jesus, and not through the Law of Mose (Acts 4:12, 13:39, which means that all those who died before his time, or who do not hear his gospel, are excluded).

Salvation is:

By Faith (belief) only (Luke 7:50, John 3:14-16, 18, 36, 5:24, 6:29, 35, 40, 47, 70, 10:25-28, Acts 13:39, 16:31, Rom 1:16, 3:20-26, Rom 4, 9:32, Gal 2:16, 3:11, 14, Eph 1:13, 2:8-9, 1 Tim 1:16, 2 Tim 3:14-15, 1 Pet 1:9, Heb 10:38-39, and 11:17, where Paul gives as an example Abraham offering Isaac). But mercy can substitute for unbelief (1 Tim 1:13).

By Works only (including obedience to commandments)

("do the will" of God, Matt 7:21, "keep the commandments," 19:16-20, Luke 10:36-37, 12:47-48, 19:8-9, John 14:15; also Lev 18:5, Psalms 65:12, 103:17-20). Paul also says works ("law") (Rom 2:5-6, 13, 2 Cor 5:10), and says we must "work out" our own salvation (Php 2:12).

James also says works, giving the example of Abraham offering Isaac (James 2:20-24). James also says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26), and "be doers of the word," which you must also know (so that knowledge is also required; James 1:22-27). Also Ezek 18:1- 22, 30, Rev 20:12-15 ("judged according to their works"), 22:12-14, 2 Pet 1:10, 1 John 2:3-5, Psalms 62:12, Jer 17:10, 2 Tim 3:17, Heb 5:9 (obedience). Paul says charity is more important than faith (1 Cor 13:2, 13).

Those who do not help the needy are condemned (Matt 25:34-46).

By Grace only, i.e., it is a "gift" (John 6:44, 65, Isa 43:25, Jer 30:21, Acts 15:11, 22:14, Rom 3:24, 5:15-21 (a "free gift"), 6:23, 9:16, 11:5-6, Eph 2:5-9, 1 Pet 1:10, 2 Tim 1:9, Tit 2:11, 3:5-7).

By confession of sin (Psalms 32:1-5).

By Repentance (Isa 55:6-7, Matt 3:1-6, 4:17, 9:10-13, Luke 13:1-5, Acts 17:30, Rom 6:23, James 4:7-10, 2 Pet 3:9, Rev 3:19-21).

By repentance plus baptism (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:37-38, 22:16).

By Baptism (Matt 3:1-17, 28:19-20, Luke 7:28-30, John 3:5, Acts 10:47-48, 16:25-33, 22:10-16, Gal 3:27, Heb 6:1-2, 1 Pet 3:21).

By Belief and baptism (Mark 16:16).

By repentance, faith, baptism, and laying on of hands (Heb 6:1-2).

By Calling on the Lord's (or Jesus') name (Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13; but Matt 7:21 says "not everyone that saith Lord, Lord shall enter;" also Luke 13:25).

By stating aloud a belief in Jesus and his resurrection (Rom 10:9).

By Enduring to the end (Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13).

By Poverty (Matt 19:21-24, Mark 10:21-24, Luke 18:24-25, Luke 19:8-9).

By losing our life for Jesus (Matt 16:25).

By eating Jesus' flesh (John 6:48-58) and/or by

being "born again" (John 3:3).

By justice, mercy, humility only (Micah 6:8).

But God decides, regardless of what we do (Matt 20:23, John 6:44, 65, 17:2, 6, 9, Acts 2:39, 47, 4:28, 13:48, Eph 1:4-5, 11, 2:10, Psalms 133:3, 139:16, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Thess 2:11-14, Pr 16:4, 9, Job 23:14, Joel 2:32, Rom 2:4, 8:29-30, 9:11-18, Cor 12:18, Php 2:13, 2 Tim 1:9, 1 Pet 2:8, 5:10, Rev 17:8).

Are we really free to determine our own fate, or is it pre- determined from the beginning?

We have free will (Josh 14:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve;" Josh 24:22 "ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him;" Deut 11:26-28, 30:19, choose life rather than death; Psalms 16:9 "a man's heart deviseth his way;" Rev 22:17 "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely"; "law of liberty allows us to do good work," James 1:25; "He that hath power over his own will..," 1 Cor 7:37, John 5:38-47, 8:32, 36, Gal 5:1).

Our fate is predetermined (Eph 1:4-5, 11, "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...having predestinated us... according to his good pleasure;" Rom 8:29-30 "whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate;" also Acts 2:39, 47, 4:28, 13:48, Eph 1:11, 2:10, Psalms 139:16, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Thess 2:13-14, Pr 16:4, 9, Job 23:14, Matt 20:23, John 6:44, Rom 9:11-18, 29-30,Rev 17:8, 2 Tim 1:9, 1 Pet 1:2, 20, 2:8, 5:10, Jude 4; also verses with the theme that "man proposes, God disposes": Pr 19:21, 16:33, Psalms 37:23, Job 14:5, Acts 17:26).

I love your freewill quote. Choose God and heaven or Satan and hell. Sounds like freewill to me. I think there is a big hint that you really don't have a choice.

Wow, a lot of work went in to quoting those bible scriptures. Since the bible has contradictions in it (as does the Book of Mormon), I see it as a waste of time to base any of my beliefs on either of them, except if a specific scripture seems to contain some truth that resonates with me. Finding such a scripture from these sources is a tall order when searching through the words that were written a few thousands of years ago, or that were made-up and plagerized by one man who wanted to start his own religion.

Back in the times of the Egyption Pharos, I am sure that those people believed in a religion that is quite different than what we believe today. People believe in what they are taught. There are always religious writings. Whether or not any of them are true is irrelevant in most cases.

The most healthy thing to do is to believe in a god that is more like the ideal loving parent. What kind of parent would ever consider throwing their children in to hell, or worse yet, threatening them with it as a punishment for lack of obediance (works), or for a lack of gratitude (grace). I don't believe in a god that would do either. Any book that would say otherwise, should be considered suspect.

You put up a lot to respond to, nli. I have time for just one issue: Free will, or God's election?

Allow me an analogy.

Imagine a swimmer is in difficulty, struggling off the edge of a dock. Fortuitously, you are there with a ring buoy. Your presence there is "grace" -- a person who can save the man in peril. So you heave the buoy, but surprisingly, the person refuses to grasp it!

Perhaps he says, "I'm not in danger," or, "I'll handle this all by myself," "I've been swimming here all my life, and never been in trouble before," or even, "Who do you think you are, Mr. Big Shot?"

And he drowns.Or he reconsiders, takes hold of it, and is saved.

Your presence there, as "savior," represents grace. Without it, the man in peril was doomed. However, his willingness--or not--to take hold of the buoy is free will. With the increased secularization of the culture, most people think, "I don't need that show-off's ring buoy, I'm fine all by myself."

Okay, folks, it's only an analogy, and I expect it to be challenged. It is simply a way to illustrate that grace ("election") and free will are not contradictory, but are each as necessary as they are mutual. As Paul says, we "see through a glass darkly," but that's my view of things.

I have to run now. I'll check this fascinating thread later.

My big conundrum is after we are saved and do "works", we still fall short/sin every now and then...right? Because we are still human. So what then are we supposed to do about that sin we just did? This is where I think people who start religions have gone astray. They narrow it down and go to far in one direction/area. i don't trust them because they are human, and put there own spin on things.

Another thing about works is if we are saved by works, Who determines how much and what kind of works is enough for us to be saved?? God determines right, but then we have that human problem again, and will never be perfect in every way at all times, and be able to follow every command at all times, do you know anyone who can do that?

So I am leaning more towards grace. Only God knows our heart.

I think it's a lot simpler than that. When you get rid of the dogma and victemless sins, there's not many things you can do wrong. Last week, I didn't harm anyone. The week before that I didn't harm anyone. So I did nothing what-so-ever wrong for the last two weeks. If I do harm to someone, I apologize and make good to replace their loss to the best of my ability. Twice in the past year, I have done that (minor automobile accidents). The other 50 weeks, I get 100 percent without any need for grace. I don't mis-treat people, especially those I love. I do my best and am open to criticism in case I accidentally do wrong. Most people are like me. Don't sweat the small things. Being human is not a sin. You're not a machine. You have a right to have emotions as long as you don't lose control and harm others.

The biggest abusers of this whole grace thing are those who don't intend to make attempts to be a better person. The grace they seek is a free pass for themselves, for the wrong-doing they intend to do going forward. They know they can't live all of the bullshit dogma rules. It's just easier to accept that they're broken and let Jesus pay all of their karmic bills. I am sure that when I die, there will be things that I didn't know about or couldn't repay when it comes to making good on my own human errors. So yes, there is grace. But I refuse to parade like someone special because of it. Beware of those who talk about grace like they've discovered a gold mine. Some of them are planning ahead. They harm you and it's no problem. Big brother Jesus pays all of the bills anyway. So put it on my tab.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2018 08:39PM by azsteve.

I went to Lynn Wilder and her husband's presentation in Phoenix tonight. They seemed like nice people. I was initially afraid before I went, that there might be a lot of religious fanacitism there. Everyone seemed normal and only appropriately religious considering that the topic of the meeting was religious to begin with.

I was surprised though, about one thing. The topic stayed on religious differences in belief only, for the most part. They discussed the differences between mormon jesus and biblical jesus. She discussed, not knowing about the curse of cain herself until the students brought it up in a diversity class that she taught at BYU. BYU was forced to teach diversity classes to maintain its Academic credentials and as a new instructor, she got to teach that class. But the extent of the cruelty of mormon racism wasn't conveyed. The church's obscene financial secracy wasn't even brought up. I raised my hand and brought up the temple blood-oaths, mimicking the throat-slashing motions myself as I described the ceremony. Several people looked shocked as I spoke these things, and then the discussion quickly changed to more benign topics of comparative religious differences in beliefs, although the Wilders did confirm that they experienced the same ceremony as I had described. But it was like the differences between tomato or tomoto and not as much good vs evil. Then everyone went home.

The Wilders did a good job of conveying the cencepts of grace. They conveyed having a love for the mormon people. That seems to be mostly what they were there to talk about. I got the impression that not many real mormons (past or present) were there. Most of the people there used traditional christian verbages when they spoke during the question and answer period. They didn't seem to share my desire to shread the mormon church's public image, or to bring the church down as I do. They seemed convinced that this would happen on its own and that it is already starting to happen now anyway.

I have listened to the Wilders and others who teach "Sola Fide" or "Grace Alone". I can't help but think that something is missing. The Mormon concept of "Faith and Works" did not work out, and I believe it has led to the Gen. Authorities abusing the rank-and-file members. Also it causes members to be filled with guilt and feel so horribly about themselves, because they cannot do as much as others. The whole "faith and works" concept is skewed, but so is "faith alone" as far as I can see.

I'm trying to understand Martin Luther's day and culture, to try to understand what made him totally reject "faith and works" for "faith alone". I know about the abuse with the indulgences, but there were many other things going on that caused Luther to rebel. That's why he wrote "95 theses". It may take me a long time to figure it out, but I believe that the original concept got corrupted. It was corrupted in Luther's time, and it was also corrupted in Mormonism.