I suppose TSCC still teaches predestination. Do they think Joseph was predestined to die at Carthage?

Also, where did that idea come from? Was it popular in Calvinism, or was it just popular in the 19th century?

Predestination is the Calvinist doctrine that since God knows in advance who will be saved ("the Elect") and who won't, it follows that the Elect are therefore predestined. This is a minority position. Even the churches who trace their spiritual ancestry back to Calvin (e.g. Presbyterians) have backed away from it.

Even for those who hold to the doctrine of Predestination, it does not necessarily follow that human behavior and decisions are predetermined. Islam holds a stronger position of predetermination ("destiny" or "kismet") than contemporary Christian churches.

Predestination is actually quite complex, and attempts at simplifying it lend it easily to misunderstanding and caricature.

Even though LDS is mostly wrong on doctrine, I would say that LDS tilts decidedly towards the "free will" side of the divide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2018 01:43AM by caffiend.

“Even though LDS is mostly wrong on doctrine, I would say that LDS tilts decidedly towards the "free will" side of the divide.”

I’m not sure the notion of “free will” is as correct as we suppose. It may serve as a narrative upon which to base jurisprudence, but it’s not necessarily the physical reality. Free will and the randomness of events could be illusions in a pseudorandom reality. In other words, non-determinism is only an appearance made possible by our habitation of space time. But I’m just thinking out loud. Free will only has to be true enough to enable a consensus.

For alternatives that don’t work, you could look at India’s caste system or Islam’s lack of resistance to tyranny. In those cases, it’s better to believe in free will regardless of its reality. Ironically, this rationale can work with religion, up to a point. I wouldn’t recommend trying it with Mormonism.

I looked it up. TSCC teaches foreordination, not predestination. So Joe was foreordained to be aired out. Predestination goes way back. I’m more interested in its status as a physical principle than a theological doctrine.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> I’m more interested in its status as a physical
> principle than a theological doctrine.

I have no idea what this means...are you talking about, for example, decomposition?

Atoms and molecules for all of us, at least eventually??

That’s an interesting point, deconstruction. Going down to the wave properties of matter. Does matter arrange itself around mind? Does faith move metaphorical mountains? And if the mountain moves was it destined to move all along?

I’m looking at reality as a case of divine perfection. That kind of implies preordination, or ordination of finite sets. A lot of questions fall out of this, such as why suffering and what is self? Maybe that’s why we have myths. We need the myths because science hasn’t gotten there yet. I think it will eventually, because it wants to. On the other hand there are shamans and mystics who get glimpses of other realms so it’s not like the knowledge isn’t there. It just isn’t accessible. Too weird.

My personal opinion is that the answer lies in a dimension of time that flows from the future toward the past, a kind of projection of consciousness that counters entropy. It’s not that the laws of thermodynamics don’t apply. It’s that there’s something else to living things (and their worlds) besides causal time. Something outside of time, or eternal. Then it’s a question of how rigged the game actually is.

When I was young we were taught often that we were fore-ordained and that there was no such thing as pre-destination. This came up a lot in meetings where I was raised in the 50's and 60's. This meant God already had a plan for us, even anointed us in the pre-existence as to our purpose, but it was up to us to accept it and carry it out in this life. It was always presented as a clear choice: Do what you were fore-ordained to do or go to hell.

I never could figure out what I was fore-ordained to do even when I fasted and prayed to know. Worked out about the same as Moroni's promise for me. My bed wouldn't tell me a damn thing when I prayed to it.

Turned out that "fore-ordained" is code for "Do what you are told by your Mormon leaders and ask no questions."

We were taught this as well. Same time frame.

Additionally when someone asked why we were even here. The answer was to prove to ourselves we were worthy.

If god said Heartless you're going to the telestial kingdom. God knew the first thing I'd say is that I didn't get a chance to try to be a god. So I have to be here to prove god right.

It's got to be free will.

As Isaac Bashevis Singer said:

"We MUST believe in free will! We have no choice!l"

Some people, based on my studies, who believe in 'reincarnation' also believe in free will but also in individual/family plans.

A person's occupation(s), who he marries/divorces/etc., and birth family composition is planned. Death is also planned however, there may be alternative 'exit' points based on what the person is accomplishing as far as 'experiencing/learning' in life.

Also major illnesses and events (positive and negative) are planned for the 'experience'.

Unfortunately, that means that the horrible incidents occurring here were planned by those participating (killers and those being killed and those significantly impacted) all for the 'experience'. I noted that many of these mass killers 'hear voices in their head' ------- reminding them of what they agreed to????

I guess some 'possible truths' are not that pleasant.

Predestination: The place you stop for a beer before you get to the place you are going.

Predestination is carved in granite and there is no escaping it.

Fore-ordination is a matter of being selected but based on circumstances may be changed.