One of the most striking things I have observed, is how that emotionally based love of the gospel very often turns to hate, rage, bitterness, and anger, sometimes lasting for years and years, when a member stops believing (for whatever reason.)

In my case, I knew that those powerful negative emotions would sabotage my ability to protect my self respect, self confidence and would not promote my personal well being: physically, emotionally, psychologically, mentally. I chose to do my best to avoid them as much as possible. The real power I could rely on was: love. Sure, I was annoyed, upset, baffled, confused, mad, etc. at times, but it never lasted very long. I experienced those emotions as a member and as a former member.

I loved the gospel, loved being LDS, loved being involved, living the life style, got so I didn't mind the garments after I had them made to fit, with no lace, or going to the temple (that 8 to 10 hour excursion was a quiet escape- playing my part in the costumed audience performance, figurative play), loved my family, enjoy my "callings." At least, as much as anyone else who lived a familial, societal, traditional, cultural, religious life-style. I often call it: The Good, The Bad,The Ugly; just like every other human being.

I have the kind of personality that sees the humor very quickly, in many or most of my experiences. Growing up with Depression Era family, who had a wonderful sense of humor, must have rubbed off on me. Apparently, that was evident even when I was in grade school, or so I am told! :-) This ability to see the humor and engage in laughter has been very beneficial in my life. It accounts for how and why I responded to new information about the LDS Church and it's claims.

As a consequence, when I was pulling back, (shocked to the core by some of the treatment I received over the years, (wasn't even Christian - I would often say), wondering "what is wrong with this picture" (my initial period of examining Mormonism after thirty years of active service and belief), giving myself permission to stand up to inappropriate treatment, (the old Brethren's Halo is Askew Syndrome!), I noticed that my emotional connection of "love of the gospel" was wearing very thin. I was hanging on by a shoe string. Many times, I was spent. I didn't want to be involved, didn't want to attend. I was exhausted, worn out, cramped. I couldn't find inner peace, or joy as promised, or the freedom that went with it.

The adage: "The church/gospel is perfect, the people are not," quickly became one of the most ridiculous things I had ever heard. Good Grief, people. There would be no church without the people!

Rote answers of "Why did we come to earth: To gain a body and be tested" and dozens more like that, lost all meaning and were empty silliness that would appeal to a five year old.

Little by little my eyes were opened and I realized ( reading on line, Dr. Shades to be exact and dozens of other web sites recommended by a family member): Holy Cow, the Book of Mormon and Bible are not literal history. Myths, legends, parables, teachings, etc, around still standing places didn't make the Bible literal history.The Book of Mormon didn't even have that.

Then it hit me: the Book of Mormon is fiction about imaginary people, places and things. Very clever! And I snickered, and laughed --quietly, for days and days. Joseph Smith Jr didn't have any golden plates from any angel or any visions. It was all claimed visionary, treasure digging with nothing but "spiritual eyes' witnesses, which mean they believed what they were told existed.

Wow. That is powerful stuff. The incredible thing, that got a chuckle out of me, is that thousands and thousands (millions) of people still believe in the long established traditional beliefs of Joseph Smith Jr and his claims, and there is not an iota of truth/factual evidence to back up any of it, no matter how imaginary and clever the Mormon apologists are or how fervent the testimonies are.

That, I realized is the amazing power of the "Spiritual Witness." Hmmm. I didn't think I had that. I think I just believed what I was told as who would even imagine that anyone was telling "stories" and making it up as they went along. Nah. that couldn't be happening. But it did and it does.

Now, the question became: was I going to choose to hate my life, hate the church, hate Mormons, fill my mind with bitterness, anger, rage, now that I realized that I had bought into an excellently fabricated God Myth? Nope. I couldn't deny my prior life. Was I going to engage in regrets? Nope.

There was value to all of my life, not a bit was wasted, nothing was destroyed, it all taught me something, and I was not going to diminish any of it by turning against it. I had a lot to be grateful for: a wonderful family, a good husband and father for my children, (I got one of the good ones! :-). and hundreds of fun, terrific memories, including the pictures to prove it!

The church I left was not the church I joined in the 60's when we had fantastic lessons, open discussions, lots of fun and laughter, and dozens of events for the adults and kids.

The church I left had become narrow, overly restrictive and authoritative,little to no creativity, dumbed-down manuals, with nothing but lack-luster repetitive robotic meetings, leaders with no ability to manage anything, many of which were clearly emotionally unstable.
The church I loved had changed, dramatically. It was empty. It offered me nothing of substance. My creativity was stifled also, beat down by the opinions of others.

That started my Exit Process from Mormonism -- a Do It Yourself Project -- with no manual, flying by the seat of my pants, hitting all kinds of turbulence: snags, rough spots, tears, angry family members, lack of understanding, false accusations, and on and on, relying on the power of repeating their own teachings, particularly the 11th Article of Faith to make some inroads. Eventually, people adjusted and accepted the notion that I could and did change my mind and that was going to be OK.

I have learned more and more, every day about the value of living in the present, enjoying every day, living with inner peace and love, and freedom to govern my own life. And what a wonderful gift that is.

I continue to live with and love many Mormon friends and relatives. It works for them, and I am fine with that.

Differences in religious beliefs are not an issue as we continue our positive, fun, filled with love and laughter, relationships. And that is exactly how I want my life to continue. Each of us have the freedom to live our lives as we choose, for which I am very grateful and appreciative!

And so it goes, one day at a time.:-)

and it is a part of my life experience.

Thanks for sharing your perspective SusieQ#1, I really appreciate it, especially tonight.

In the last week or so I shared with a TBM friend (now former friend) my beliefs and feelings regarding the LDS church. She stopped responding to my emails and did not pick up when I called. She used to always return a call if she missed it. I deserve to be treated with respect and not in a passive aggressive way so simply sent one last email where I told her I appreciated her friendship over the years but that I would no longer contact her and wished her the best.


Anyway, thanks for the reminder to live in the moment and enjoy it.

It's so hard to keep our relationships especially if we share what amounts to be....too much when they can't handle it.

Oddly enough, I joined more for "social" reasons than because I actually bought the religion. I thought the religion was hokey from the get-go, but I liked the PEOPLE. I liked the emphasis on decency, family, not drinking or smoking, etc. I enjoyed the activities. (They were fun, back then.)

I liked the idea of a built-in social support system, no matter where you were. If there were Mormons there, you had "family." I still like that idea, but I'm not willing to pay the price they exact for it.

I remember getting a huge kick out of being part of the "IN" group when we vacationed in SLC - covertly eyeing people to see who had garmies and who didn't, and feeling like I was a member of the tribe, as it were.

Looking back, it really had nothing to do with the religion. As the Boys in SLC began clamping down on things like tattoos and earrings and (Heaven forbid) DARING to augment excruciatingly dull talks or lessons with material you came up with on your own, I started getting restless. When I found RfM and realized that others felt as I did, the EXIT sign lit up and I was gone.

I know I enjoyed the social/cultural aspects of the religion also. I was a young woman, and this was my "adopted tribe" however, no matter how hard I tried, I just could never learn to think like a "born in the bed" Mormon! :-)

OH NO..you got in trouble for "augmenting" also! :-) Me too! I really objected to being told how to "magnify" my calling! I don't know how many times, lost count years ago, that I was chastised for adding something, being a little creative, making something a little bit FUN!! It was OK if it was assigned, But heaven forbid I do something on my own! It got worse after I left.
Flexibility is not the hallmark of Mormonism!
I didn't realize just how stifled I was until I stepped back and stopped thinking of myself as a Mormon.

Mormonism worked for me for a very long time, but eventually, it became too confining, to restrictive, much too authoritative, to little room for real creativity. Besides, I was exhausted from all those mental gymnastics I had to do to make the impossible and unreasonable seem rational and logical!

I often say that I had to get hit on the head to get me to pay attention, as I had been in an accident and had a nasty concussion when I finally wore out and ran out of steam and took the ring out of my nose! That was in 1998.
My world changed, and all for the better!

Yes indeed. It broke my heart but I'm all healed now.

Like you Susie - lots of emotional/shocking personal revelations and realisations. I thought for a little while that I'd lost my mind.

Briggy

But I was raised that this was the only path to salvation, damnation was the consequence of turning away. For me, the realizaton that it was true was a relief. My only regret is that I stayed in so long and that my family is still in the church.

I know many didn't like or love the LDS Church. Most of my kids had enough of it in their teenage years. Some stayed, some did not, all but one have left completely. And that one is "not so churchy" as they say, understanding there must be balance in their lives.

I have become a believe in the adage: when the student is ready, the teacher/master appears.

I didn't leave until I was ready to do so. Not a minute sooner. And because of that I have no regrets, and because this is about me, I have no concern for anyone else or the family about whether they stay or not.
That is their choice. It's not about me.

By the time I realized that Joseph Smith Jr was telling a "whopper" I was in the frame of mind to have a good giggle and laugh at how he pulled it off and how people are still believing him totally. That use of humor was the best medicine! It saved me from a lot of problems.

I'm also amazed at how believers are so often so literal and don't see the figurative, and myth in all of it. My common sense button, long established before I converted, wouldn't allow me to accept everything as literal. Some, yes, but definitely, not the temple rituals.

Thanks for your post SusieQ. I was born in the 1970s, so I don't have many memories of how the church was before it got Correlated. I vaguely remember having sacrament meeting in Sunday School in the morning, going to Primary on a Thursday afternoon, and having church in the afternoon. I remember life before the three hour block a little bit. I've heard other older members of my family speak of the pre-1970s period with great fondness as well.

However, some changes were welcomed by my family. I know that my paternal grandmother became much more of an active temple-goer after the death oaths were removed. As she put it, "they had things in there that had no business being in there in the first place!" She wouldn't say what they were, but I can guess.

Good for her! Some people really enjoy rituals, doesn't matter what they are, but they have an intrinsic sense of what is acceptable and what is not.

I have noticed that it's usually the grandparents that have the gumption to not give a hoot what someone thinks so they speak up! I'm practicing that myself! :-)

I taught early morning seminary for five years and LOVED every minute of it. Later, I taught the Gospel Essentials class for new investigators or recent converts. I loved that, too. When the light came on and I finally realized what a fraud the church was I felt guilty for having done such an enthusiastic job of teaching. I regret that to this day.

You shouldn't blame yourself for something you were completely unaware of at the time. You put yourself full-steam into a job and you should be proud you worked so hard at it. If you didn't do it, someone else was going to. I know I certainly enjoyed class more when I had a pretty cooky(sp?) teacher than when I had a bland, drab teacher who had little more charisma than Boyd KKK Packer himself.

Regretting it now isn't going to change things, and chances are your enthusiasm may have encouraged some of your students to study further - and perhaps even start them on the road to recovery. You never know what might have happened. You were fortunate enough to see the light, and that's what counts. What the students took from your lessons isn't really within your control.

Just my twenty-five cents. (inflation and all that.)

I miss the "sureness" of the church. When there are enough rules and answers for everything it can make you feel secure. Sort of like being a child and letting the grown ups worry about all the hard stuff. Sometimes when my life gets too "real" I miss being able to have all those easy answers to numb myself with.

Like you said, it's a process. For me it's been four years and I find that while I have zero belief in mormon doctrine and zero desire to rejoin, I am still deeply ambivalent about much of the experience. Part of me still takes pride in my mormon heritage and I sometimes take offense when people disparage mormons. On the other hand, memories from my TBM days that felt amazing at the time now make me feel embarrassed, ashamed, and angry. I miss having a ready-made support network. But, most importantly, I don't remember the actual doctrine ever brining me comfort or happiness. Instead I felt like I was perpetually berating myself for not believing or not doing enough or being enough. I guess I still do that now, but at least I no longer feel like I'm going to be damned because of it.

I'm new to the board...no one in the ward knows that I've had these feelings, but I can relate to every word. Had my first beer last night with a trusted friend (even smoked...just to prove I wouldn't be struck dead...surprise, I'm still here!). My DH doesn't know any of this, but I suppose it will be a test to see if we make it.

Right now, I'm just happy to be able to voice my doubts. My mom is thrilled, but always supported me in anything I've done in life (I'm the only member, convert since 1997). I also enjoyed the social aspect, but when I started feeling superior and elitist (so NOT like me!) I knew it was time to go. Of course, some things I read in the current Ensign, and BKP conference address shoved me over the edge.

BTW, it's Sunday and I skipped out of church...and I'm still alive.

I use the term: "love the gospel" because it's something I heard often from long time members.
When challenged, they would use that as a reply to explain why they don't have any reason to research it, or think differently about it.

It was just something I was born into and either (a) didn't question or (b) ignored because it was just plain stupid (I for one never believed in the Nephite civilisation).

As soon as I was old enough, I stopped going. When my life got rocky, I went back wondering if maybe they were right and the reason it was rocky was because I'd "fallen away". Intellectual rejection came after my first temple session removed the shelf supports and the things I'd put on that shelf cascaded all over the floor.

I didn't love it - mostly I was bored and irritated by it.

Interesting post. I would have to say yes, for most of my life I very much "loved the gospel" and the church. I was BIC into a devout and very loving family. I was convinced the "church was true" and would have said (truly) that I had a very strong "testimony" and tons of "spiritual experiences" that were/are very meaningful to me. Almost all of my significant role models and most of my friends growing up in Utah were Mormon. Growing up, I thought the notion of my ever leaving the church was absurd and would be one of the worst things imaginable. One of my surprises the past couple of years is how easily (after the painful first year) I have given up believing and don't really miss it. (I am now an almost completely convinced atheist.) I served a full time mission (happily) and was married in the temple (very happily). I had doubts from time to time, but always "resolved" them in some way in my mind. I was even convinced there was no conflict between my faith and science. It wasn't until fairly recently that I came to realize with an open mind the immensity of the issues with believing. Now, I can't imagine how I used to believe and I now really want out of the church very much. I am still in for now though because of my wife's wishes and other pressures. I'm not really sure how to make the transition, and am making it in small moves. DW mostly knows how I feel, and she is saddened by it and has been getting more devout herself, but is very loving and understanding. (She is fantastic all around.) I am sure I will pay a large social/family cost to make the change and the awkwardness is compounded by my currently being in the bishopric. (Yes, I know it is a ridiculous situation to be in.) I am contemplating a job move in the near future, and may use that break as the best opportunity I'll have to make the life change...

Anyway, it's been great to have this board to not feel quite so alone in all of this. Thanks to all... (First time poster, recently avid reader.)

There are many here that can and will support you and some that may be in the same or similar situation.
I'm convinced we need each other in this kind of "transition" as you called it.

I loved the activities up through my first few years of college at BYU. I loved the security of being told what to believe, what I should do, what the purpose of life was, I liked learning about the church and I enjoyed the validation of being told I was righteous (how embarrassing to admit). It was wonderful to look forward to Eternal Life and GODHOOD.

But there my life didn't follow the exact trajectory mapped out by the church for me. I didn't marry until my late 20s and faced the prospect of remaining single. The church makes it difficult for those who don't do things exactly as mapped out to feel worthwhile and like their life has value AS IS, family or not. There was this sense of being in limbo, waiting for marriage.

Then there was the fact that the church never got deeper. Same old lessons year after year. Pat answers to childlike questions in class. And my prayers for a testimony remained unanswered for year after year after year. I thought something was wrong with ME.

And more and more demands as I did marry, had children, and was expected to serve in demanding callings. The payoff for being a member was getting smaller and smaller. Fun activities were rare for adults. I enjoyed the community, but friendships were shallow and transient and shifted with boundaries and callings. I felt like I was always being told to do more. Pray more, study scriptures daily, etc. Always comparing myself to other women . . . who were infinitely more perfect than I was.

By the time I left, the church was making me miserable. I felt exhausted, unworthy (even though I hadn't sinned) and like a slacker. Because apparently, I was never "good enough" to get a testimony.

Been a long time since I've posted but lurk from time to time. This post struck a real chord with me because just earlier this evening I had an email from an old non-active friend and responded in similar vein about the church of our youth. We both joined back in 1961 and by golly, was it a different church. Roadshows, sports carnivals, wonderful MIA and Stake conferences were a delight as 1200 saints from an area twice the size of California met 4 times a year. Because we were so spread out and our one stake was so vast everyone brought a picnic lunch and the members would sit all around the stake house, eating their lunches, visiting, catching up. In those days it was a weird church, with some pretty strange teachings but we discussed them; polygamy was not a taboo subject and sisters with non-member husbands would often joke about some day being sealed to one of the priesthood holders. My ex-wife's comeback always was, "Well he and you need the first wife's permission. So get in line and I'll think about it."
We weren't afraid of controversy, endlessly discussion the priesthood ban on blacks and even though most Australian members hated it, we felt sure "the Lord" would work it all out during the great judgement. Such a different church and yes, I loved it. Loved everything about it. My testimony almost burst in my bosom and it really did burn like a fire in me. I loved the temple after I thought about it and after the first time through feeling I never wanted to go back. Didn't mind wearing garments. Didn't mind all the positions I had to fill with such a small membership. I was in love with the church, the gospel, the Saviour and Joseph Smith.
I feel it all started to crumble when Kimball was president. Such a nasty, spiteful little man. And it's only gotten worse.
Now, I have serious doubts about a "Jesus" character, even historically; felt so let down by JS, and ttscc...how sad, how dreadfully, dreadfully sad. But I survived, I am what I am and loving it.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I knew exactly what you were talking about as I lived it also. It was a FUN church. I was involved in almost everything you listed and loved it.

There were OPEN discussions. We didn't have so many restrictions like they do today.

We sang gorgeous music also. We were NOT limited to the hymnal.

Unless you lived that kind of LDS Church, nowadays, it's hard to imagine it! It is not the same. It is not the church I joined.

I soon lost all desire to be involved and didn't know why. I just knew "something was wrong the that picture" they were painting and the restrictions and controls were absurd. That got me researching which started me on the road to ditching all of it when I realized what Joseph Smith Jr had done: no golden plates from any angel, no translations, the BOM was fiction about imaginary people, places and things.
That did it. It actually stuck my funny bone! I did not want to be a Mormon anymore. I was so DONE!
The more research I did on Mormonism and Christianity, the more I realized I didn't need a savior either.

to an RM in the Temple, of course, with not a clue what I was getting into. Then we moved to Provo and lived in Wymount Terrace Married Student Housing for several years.
Wow. Talk about culture shock!

We raised out kids in the LDS Church. Most have left, but most have a lot of fun memories and are still friends with many of the kids they knew from their teenage years. They are not angry, or bitter either. I bought into it just like my family bought into Christianity and were Christian ministers. Not much difference -- just a different belief system.

I think a lot of our attitudes when we leave have to do with what we experienced as members.

I had a long involvement in Roadshows and music, that included a two to three decades, at least, of positive involvement as a whole. It was fraught with struggles and some negative experiences, but that's just life!

I found I could change my mind and not believe the claims and leave the LDS rather smoothly.

I didn't have a need to be angry and bitter about the beliefs. How that God Myth took hold and still has believers world wide struck me as rather humorous, in this day and age.

My discontent was mostly about how information was camouflaged, the authoritative controls became tighter and tighter, more and more restrictions, the history was not explained in an honest manner, (too much emphasize was placed on sanitizing it all for the delicate testimonies, and how I was so unfairly treated. The horrible treatment of leaders and some members was the hardest to deal with. Probably most of my negative emotions were about the latter.

I've been wracking my brain but I can't recall a talk like Mr. Packer gave, ever. At least nothing that would start a fire storm, like he did. I wonder what he was trying to do. I think those GA's often live in a bubble and have no clue how the rest of the world will respond to their words.
He really did it this time.

I am able to accept my life as a Mormon and keep the positive memories and friendships and respect any universal truths, such as "love one another." I don't have any concern about those that are members and believe it totally. It's their right and choice to do so. I did it, so I ought to understand that very well. And I do.

I'm grateful for my ability to make changes in my life,and in my late 50's when I decided I could no longer believe in the claims of the LDS Church. I'm grateful that my family members that have left the LDS Church have positive memories, are not angry or bitter, and are able to love their Mormon friends and relatives.

Nope--didn't like it. I lived it because I BELIEVED IT. Didn't love it at all. Someone else said they liked having the security of the "answers." When I needed the answers, they had the wrong ones. I always believed if I lived it the way they told me to and they implied that if I lived it like they told me to, that I would avoid bad things--well not all bad things. I knew there would be trials, but I NEVER thought I'd run into one of the only things they have NO ANSWERS FOR. They pretend they have the answers--they only have wrong answers.

I hated being mormon. I hated the social aspects. I come from a very antisocial family--AND my dad wasn't very active, so we were always treated like "less than."

I've said before--I was treated better in mormonism while married to my gay husband who was cheating. Everyone loved him. We were the "elite" in the ward. Mormonism is all about who can fake it the best.

I do remember before correlation, too. It was a different church then. It was more fun then, too. BUT being mormon always felt like I was fighting against myself.

that we were being led by an inspired men.. so when I found out the truth, it really pulled the rug out from under me. The sanitized, romantic version of church history was the worst. Joe Smith was a horny con-man, BY a murderous tyrant. I was really angry about being deceived for several years.

Now I feel sort of an amused contempt for Monson, Packer and the others. They live in a bubble of distortion and realize that the "gospel" is just not selling very well. The money they throw at Marketing and PR agencies is wasted; they may survive but never become something more grand than a weird American religion for the rest of the world to giggle about.

Contemplating their situation in the modern, information age provides me with my daily dose of "schadenfreude" so it all works out.

converted as a little family thinking we were just joining another Christian Church. Looking back, that probably had a lot to do with how I lived it. I lived it with a strong Christian believer background, with lots of experiences in Spiritualism, as that was how I was raised, which interestingly, led to how I understood Joseph Smith Jr and how I left, That was a lot of the core to how I raised our kids in the LDS Church also.

Imagine my surprise when I read BH Roberts Comprehensive History of the LDS Church and found the chapter on how Joseph Smith Jr was not the only "psychic in Palmyra" ! That was how I first understood him also, as well as my mother.

Some are shunned, but I doubt it's possible to shun me! Just let them try! :-0 I'm hard to ignore! Or so I'm told! :-)
How do you ignore someone who is being nice, friendly, and welcoming?

I am 24 and new to the board. I graduated from BYU-I two years ago and then decided to look more closely into the church and the forbidden anti websites. I was too scared to do it until then. I took the church for its face value and it was all I knew. This summer I finally made the decision to leave and tell my family. Looking back now I think it took me so long because I had this picture perfect lifestyle I wanted and what was expected of me. Things didn't work out with my "missionary" when I was 22 and I was very depressed and started feeling anger and betrayal. He went to Japan and came back a different person, almost like a robot. I had this vision of us getting married and having adorable kids and everything will work out like a fairy tale! Recently and still I am realizing the facade and how I was scared to venture out of my comfort zone and really form myself as a person. I think the church gave me an identity, so I didn't have to go out and find myself as much I needed to. I know this isn't the same for every one but for me it wasn't a thriving environment. I think the temples are gorgeous and love looking at all my friend's photos of their weddings on Facebook. I am sad that I won't have that memory. There are seven kids in my family and three of us are not active. My mom is active but my dad is not. They are divorced. All of my extended family are Mormon as well. I am having problems making this transition of dating and dealing with that. I found for the majority of the guys at BYU-I very annoying and immature. I want to date someone that grew up Mormon but is not now. My two siblings that have left were never very active and just regard it as a cult. I was very deep into the religion and all my best girlfriends are still Mormon. I should just write out my whole story somewhere else. My response is that picture perfect marriage setting will be missed. I always wanted that as a little girl!

of what I post on here (my situation is VERY unique and would be easily recognizable), but I do want to say that it helps to hear the diversity of opinion/insight I have been reading on this thread. I was inactive for the majority of my conversion (baptized in '97, re-active two years ago), but I don't regret getting active again...at that stage of my life I really needed it. My life was spiraling out of control and the church fulfilled a very real need for structure. Now that I'm not so crazy, it's easy to see the fraud it is. Since I haven't spoken to my husband about this, I have no idea what will happen. I would even be willing to attend (a la New Order Mormon style) and just focus on Christ during sacrament...so long as DH understands how I feel about the rest of it. My mom just told me today at lunch that she wondered when I would take a hard look at the church at say, "now wait a minute here...." I will admit, though, that although I don't consider myself gullible enough for indoctrination, I still find myself hearing "that's only Satan" whenever I read anything on this board. Thank goodness REASON kicks in soon thereafter. Thanks all for reminding me that it's OK to trust in myself to make my own decisions, and I don't need a whacked-out temple ceremony or a bishop who doesn't know me from a hole in the ground for validation.

I liked some of the doctrine such as eternal family and continued missionary work in the spirit world, which sounded more reasonable than all non christians burning in hell forever. However, being from Europe I struggled mostly with mormon culture, too many rules and meetings and never really fit in.

P.S.
Are you the same Sue that organizes the conference of the Exmormon foundation ? Just wondering.

I'm also not ADMIN - that's SusanI/S.
I'm just one of the hundreds of posters -- been around a long time.

Now that our emails don't show, I don't get emails for either of the other women.:-)