Last week she was leaving copies of "Our Daily Bread," non-denominational pamphlets of biblical passages and prayers from psalms.

Today she handed me one. I handed it back, because I already had one from a stranger handing one to me on a street corner a week ago. At first I thought she was just making friendly overtures.

Then there was the flyer on an end table stating "You won't get to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ and are born again."

I asked her if she left that there? She said that she did. And she has more where that came from. She leaves them all around the hospital. I get that her husband is there, and she goes with him for his daily treatments.

But I'm really wanting to report her to the hospital because that is inappropriate to leave missionary tracts there where people may be dying, to find or their loved ones. They don't need proselytizing at times like that. It's annoying to me to see that. It's one thing to say she just wanted to offer prayers.

Now she's trying to "save our souls" too? There's something passive-aggressive about being in the business of saving souls she's convinced don't have a chance in hell if they don't accept Jesus while she's waiting for her husband in the hospital.

I'm pretty sure there are rules forbidding that at the hospital. It is not church sponsored or affiliated. If people want a chaplain or a priest they can ask for one. Putting out brochures saying "Accept Jesus or you're going to hell," is not what the sick or dying need to see or hear for healing.

Would you report her to the hospital staff? I want to take the flyer and show them what she's distributing so they can see it with their own eyes. Maybe they're used to it. But I'm not. I find it offensive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2018 10:05PM by Amyjo.

Your feelings about the matter are legitimate, and I think you have every right to discuss your concerns with the hospital staff.

Thanks Summer, for your feedback.

I'm still deciding whether to or not.

It's totally inappropriate, that much is for sure.

Yes, report it. We always throw out anything like that that is left out. You can always use the argument that Joint Commission would find it a violation as it's not cleanable and it comes from an unknown source and may be contaminated with something. Your Facilities director and Risk Management would likely back you up.

Personally, I find your actions of telling us about her, and your concerns regarding what you perceive of her actions, as quite bold and disconcerting.

Did she tell you, "And I have more where that came from..." or is that you just piling on?

She has a loved one who is receiving treatment and she is probably concerned about him and thinks, rightly or wrongly, that others there are in the same boat. She has a reason for doing what she's doing!

What's your reason for telling us about your vendetta against her? Do you really think that she needs a good talking to by someone in the hospital administration? And do you think we need to know this?

You are always telling people here to ignore threads rather than raise a stink. Why couldn't you do that with her? Maybe she had a guardian angel tell her to do that? Surely you can respect such an instruction!

Thanking you in advance for your kind response.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, I find your actions of telling us
> about her, and your concerns regarding what you
> perceive of her actions, as quite bold and
> disconcerting.
>
> Did she tell you, "And I have more where that came
> from..." or is that you just piling on?

She said so herself. I have seen the fruits of her efforts in the pamphlets that are strewn around the waiting area. I wasn't sure at first she was the one spreading them in the area where we were until I asked. That she added she's distributed around the entire hospital doesn't seem right. Maybe that's what brings her comfort. But it's illegal in such places to proselytize.

>
> She has a loved one who is receiving treatment and
> she is probably concerned about him and thinks,
> rightly or wrongly, that others there are in the
> same boat. She has a reason for doing what she's
> doing!
>
> What's your reason for telling us about your
> vendetta against her? Do you really think that
> she needs a good talking to by someone in the
> hospital administration? And do you think we need
> to know this?
>

No vendetta. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

> You are always telling people here to ignore
> threads rather than raise a stink. Why couldn't
> you do that with her? Maybe she had a guardian
> angel tell her to do that? Surely you can respect
> such an instruction!
>
> Thanking you in advance for your kind response.

I may ignore what she's doing. If I didn't have to observe it on a continual basis. That I find it offensive is because its intrusive. It has no place in a hospital where people from all backgrounds gather. They aren't there to be preached to. That is one thing we share in common.

Her husband is very ill. It's easier for me to have compassion for her than the judgmentalism she confers on others she deems are "not saved."

She is a grown woman who shouldn't need to be told what the boundaries are for respecting others personal beliefs and that includes religious. That is what bothers me about some evangelical Christians. They are fanatical. And she is fanatical. Freedom of speech is limited to time and place, it is not universal in American society. Public hospitals are not the time or place to be preaching her version of Christianity. The hospital does not distribute these materials. I do not believe what she is doing is sanctioned by the hospital and in fact would be frowned upon if it knew about it. It's inappropriate behavior.

It depends on how she handed them out. It’s kind of morbid to hand out tracts for dying patients, if that’s the floor you guys were on ( like my dad , before he died, everyone in that section had 1-5 days)
If she asked if any one wanted to pray or talk, would of been nice.
Not all religions believe in “ going to hell” when you die, if you aren’t “ saved”. That’s the wrong time to tell people that.
Fundamental baptist churches used to believe ( don’t know now, but in the 70s and mid 80s , they still believed that ,even Mother Teresa and all religions who just don’t say in a formal prayer , even if they believe he died on the cross for your sins)are all going to a literal hell.
I just can’t see her saying that to another Christian, let alone a faithful Buddhist or Hindu,
If she’s offering words of comfort or asking if they want to talk or pray in their language, then that’s different

The tract she was handing out today was "You won't get to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ and are born again," or words to that effect. It was very direct.

That's why I took offense.

The "Our Daily Bread" was milk toast compared to this tract I saw today. If it was only prayers she was offering to help the sick, that's different.

This is telling people if they don't accept HER Jesus, they won't be saved. That's wrong. She sees things in black and white. That's fine what she believes as long as she keeps it to herself in a public place like the hospital waiting room. But don't tell me or others we aren't saved. That is not what we're there for, to hear that or read that in a waiting area. It's wholesale propaganda.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tract she was handing out today was "You won't
> get to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ and
> are born again," or words to that effect. It was
> very direct.
>
> That's why I took offense.


Amyjo, you posted on another thread here how you, 'love, love' Charles Stanley. How you find Billy Graham's CRUSADE inspiring and his 'humble' attitude something you admire.

These two men say/said the EXACT SAME THINGS as the tract you are so offended by and want to eradicate. You want to control this woman but you, 'love, love' the same message when it comes from someone else.

Could it be you simply judge this woman as, 'insufferable' (harsh, much?) but Charles Stanley and crusading Billy Graham as 'humble' and worthy of your love?

"But it's illegal in such places to proselytize."


As in, it's a crime?

If all she is doing is leaving the tracts out and about, I think it would take a demented soul to arrest and prosecute her.


And if such a law exists, to make proselytizing in 'certain' places, given that all she's doing is leaving pamphlets laying around, would you also use that law to prosecute a habited nun walking in the hallways, since she's spreading her belief in a religion...

And if she was with an observant Muslim woman, would you go for a two-fer? Nail them both for displaying their affinity for, each, a certain religion?

Of course those are silly examples, but they would be more in your face prosyletizing than pamphlets laying around.

And finally, what would you do if they were Jewish pamphlets, announcing some function involving Judaism?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "But it's illegal in such places to proselytize."
>
>
> As in, it's a crime?
>
> If all she is doing is leaving the tracts out and
> about, I think it would take a demented soul to
> arrest and prosecute her.

No one is going to arrest her silly. It is enough to tell her to stop because it's forbidden to proselytize inside the hospital.
>
>
> And if such a law exists, to make proselytizing in
> 'certain' places, given that all she's doing is
> leaving pamphlets laying around, would you also
> use that law to prosecute a habited nun walking in
> the hallways, since she's spreading her belief in
> a religion...

Nuns don't do that there. Nor do they at the Catholic hospitals.
>
> And if she was with an observant Muslim woman,
> would you go for a two-fer? Nail them both for
> displaying their affinity for, each, a certain
> religion?
>
> Of course those are silly examples, but they would
> be more in your face prosyletizing than pamphlets
> laying around.
>
> And finally, what would you do if they were Jewish
> pamphlets, announcing some function involving
> Judaism?

No Jewish or Muslims proselytizing either. It's forbidden in Judaism to proselytize, so that's a moot issue. Muslims don't do it either. I haven't noticed any Mormon missionaries tracting there either. Because it's not allowed.

Most people respect normal rules of civility. Others are clueless like religious zealots. They can be insufferable.

several years ago, I saw billboards in my area encouraging Muslim conversion as the true way to live and achieve a place in heaven. That went on for two or three years.

Whoever owns a hospital or other establishment must give permission. This woman has no permission.

The other patients who pay for the upkeep and use of the hospital have a right to expect no sales pitches or uninvited proselytizing when they go for treatment. That isn't what they're paying for.

Hospitals have trained pastors on duty to talk to patients in need of religious comfort. This woman is not one of these. The pastors are trained to help patients from their own point of view. They are never allowed to try to promote a certain faith.

Self appointed religious salespeople are trespassing on those who are paying to be left alone as they are paying for medical care.

One could always use a littering statute. After all, that is what I consider this sort of behavior. I routinely throw stuff like that in the garbage (or better yet recycling, if available.

Thank you for that suggestion, nevermojohn.

It just might work.

OTOH, once in the Redmond, WA stake center, someone was distributing a newsletter with advertising targeting LDS members...


I called them on it, and their next issue printed a biting rejoinder... But, I didn't see any more copies in church; something about 'my father's house' / merchandise...

One of a few opportunities to be 'holier than thou', ya know.

Those advertising newsletters are typical of Catholic churches in my area. Where I worship there are occasional solicitations businesses and individual donors pay for to be included into milestone flyers. That helps to defray the costs of publishing, and profits benefit the synagogue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 08:29AM by Amyjo.

The hospital probably has a policy on handling religious tracts.

Informing them and letting them handle it would be appropriate.

They more than likely would say it was ok on a waiting room table but not to go to individual rooms, hand to hospital wofkers or to hand to visitors or patients.

I know the last thing I want in the hospital is someone preaching to me.

How would people react if the missionaries, even a senior couple, handed out plan of salvation pamphlets and told grieving people to join Mormonism or they'll never see their loved ones?

Exactly right.

That kind of talk has no place there for grieving families or for patients.

As for being placed in the waiting areas, you do have a point. If the staff is aware of it ongoing then that's their call to make.

It's still offensive to me. It feels like an invasion of the privacy by those who are there to be treated. We wouldn't let that garbage into our own homes to clutter our table tops. The magazines are secular and of human interest. The church tracts are meant only to proselytize. Big difference between the two.

>>The hospital probably has a policy on handling religious tracts.

Yes, exactly. I think it's fair that a visitor to a hospital can register their upset and let the hospital make the call.

This story reminds me of an incident about 20 years ago. My wife was in the hospital for an operation. The hospital was not sponsored by a religion but did have chaplains. One protestant chaplain visited her without invitation. She told him "thanks but no thanks" but he insisted on leaving a pamphlet. I saw it later and looked it over.

Paraphrasing, it said that you may think you are sick and in the hospital as punishment for something you did wrong, and you are probably right. It went on to say what sinners we all are, etc, etc. Not very comforting fare.

I later learned that all patients at that hospital got at least one visit from a chaplain while there, whether they wanted it or not. Legal? probably. Appropriate? Not in my book.

I think the lady in the above thread thinks she is doing good and should be tolerated. You don't have to read the pamphlets.

never allowed to deal with patients again.

A similar thing happened to me a few years ago in a hospital. I wrote a letter to the hospital administrator and received an apology. He said the pastors would have training including getting copies of my letter and they would learn to practice better pastoral interaction. Also, they would not enter patients' rooms who did not want that service.

Always stalking the young, the weak and the vulnerable to recruit them into their lifestyle. Zero tolerance is needed.

Agreed.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm pretty sure there are rules forbidding that at
> the hospital. It is not church sponsored or
> affiliated.

So, why not find out? Or, it is better to post about her here when you are 'pretty sure' about the rules, or like to accuse her of illegal activities?

You often recommend to posters here that they don't have to open or read threads which may offend them.

Can you ignore this?

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I'm pretty sure there are rules forbidding that
> at
> > the hospital. It is not church sponsored or
> > affiliated.
>
> So, why not find out? Or, it is better to post
> about her here when you are 'pretty sure' about
> the rules, or like to accuse her of illegal
> activities?
>
> You often recommend to posters here that they
> don't have to open or read threads which may
> offend them.
>
> Can you ignore this?

A flyer sitting open on a table in a waiting room with cap letters telling anyone within range of seeing it they aren't saved unless they accept Jesus is not an invitation to open it. It's in plain view. And no, it's not allowed, I've already found out since posting about it yesterday.

A hospital waiting room is not an online forum. People don't have a choice or say in their being there. They should not have to be subjected to religious preaching from anyone. Certainly not damnation preaching.

You might be okay with that. I for one am not, nor do I know many people who would be.

It is offensive and inconsiderate of her. Her own husband is dying. You'd think she'd show more consideration of others. Her lack of emotional IQ is killing her. I don't see Jesus within a ten mile radius of zealots like she is. She acts like a repellent.

Unless this is a Christian hospital they shouldn't be leaving those materials in a waiting area.

I don't mind scriptures for different faiths in a reading room or meditation area. What I object to is junky flyers meant to prey on non-believers in a time of extreme emotional trauma. Hospitals should not allow this.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless this is a Christian hospital they shouldn't
> be leaving those materials in a waiting area.
>
> I don't mind scriptures for different faiths in a
> reading room or meditation area. What I object to
> is junky flyers meant to prey on non-believers in
> a time of extreme emotional trauma. Hospitals
> should not allow this.

Cheryl, this is what I believe the hospital position is. Unless I bring it to the attention of hospital staffers they may not know she is doing it. She admitted to me she's leaving them all over the fricking hospital. What right does she have to do that? (rhetorical question, we both know the answer is none.)

She tried glossing over what she's doing by saying how could anyone possibly object to prayers? The flyers she's setting out belie that when they say you won't go to heaven unless you accept JC. That isn't love. Even Jesus in all his glory didn't preach damnation. He preached about love and how pure religion was to care for others.

It's pure passive-aggressive tactics of using religion like it's some kind of bully pulpit. The hospital is no place for that, period. That kind of religion is hateful. It has no place in society either. If she wants to preach from her living room, let her. Not the waiting room.

I'd also dump that junk into a trash bin.

When I find them, they ALL end up in a urinal, Jesus face up. I am just letting the Jesus pushers out there know that are officially on alert as to where their so-called "lord and savior"'s image will end up.

If it is against the rules to leave the pamphlets around, and that's all she is doing, then don't you think the cleaning crew will pick them up and throw them away? You spoke to her first so I don't think that constitutes proselytizing. It's more like littering.

Amyjo, I think you are off base here.

Even if she is breaking a rule it isn't your rule to enforce. You have just as much ability to not care about it as she has to stop. As much as I find her proselytizing in poor taste I also find it harmless.

People in hospitals pay exorbitant prices for good care and consideration. When they don't get what they pay for, they deserve to take some action.

Harassing sick people and those in extreme stress in hospitals is inexcusable.

I wouldn't hesitate to throw out unauthorized religious materials left by trespassing religious nuts.

Cheryl, this is how it made me feel to see it lying around on the end tables. It may not be my place to take matters into my own hands, but I am there as a patient and I find it offensive. I am not there to be preached to. I am there to be treated by medical professionals, not religious lunatics hellbent on saving souls "their version" of what it means to be saved.

That isn't what people go to the hospitals to do. They go there to get well or sometimes to die. No one should be littering the area with their religious fanaticism for others to see. Religion is personal to the beholder. It isn't what we go to the hospital to have to deal with. Grieving families, patients going through surgeries or treatments. Anyone in their right mind wouldn't be using a waiting room to plaster their cheap tawdry printed propaganda on table tops to have to set aside in order to find something more appropriate for reading material.

I might mention your concerns to the hospital, but then it is up to them. It isnt your place to make the rules there or to destroy the flyers. Once the hospital is aware, it is their right to decide what to do.If the lady is accosting people or going to patient rooms to preach, that is another issue, but leaving flyers isnt a big deal to me. Bottom line, it is up to the hospital and you do have a right to draw the issue to their attention..After that, it is up to them

That is what I did today. It looked like someone has already addressed it because all of that women's reading propaganda was absent.

I thought to myself "Praise God!" ;-)

The hospital staff told me to let them know if it happens again. They will take care of it.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo, I think you are off base here.
>
> Even if she is breaking a rule it isn't your rule
> to enforce. You have just as much ability to not
> care about it as she has to stop. As much as I
> find her proselytizing in poor taste I also find
> it harmless.

It is not harmless. People are already stressed out because they are there. We don't need the added stresses of someone telling us we aren't "good enough to get to heaven" as good as we are. To me that is blasphemy. It IS harmful. It has NO place in a place of healing.

My husband said this absolutely would never have been allowed in the hospital where he worked.

He said he thinks security would have promptly ejected the religious nut with their materials. If security didn't happen to notice what was happening, he said it would have been reported sooner or later and halted.

Then, the front desk people would be put on alert to watch for this person and not let them into the hospital again unless they could show proof they were there only for care or to visit a patient.

Patients, their visitors, official vendors and those attending meetings or training have good reasons to be in a hospital, along with medical and other staff. Anyone without a legitimate reason to be there is a trespasser and should be told to leave.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He said he thinks security would have promptly
> ejected the religious nut with their materials.

Here we go again. We have Amyjo 'pretty sure' about the rules. Then, Amyjo says it's 'illegal' activities. And you who says it is 'abuse'.

Now the woman is a 'religious nut' and your husband is very sure it isn't allowed.

If history serves, there is a lawsuit or a threat of a lawsuit in your arsenal to recommend.

Since, Amyjo, you revere the late Billy Graham so much, and regard his 'humble' attitude so exemplary, let us remember:

"Did you know that in these meetings, you could say, “I’m almost ready to come down that aisle and be spoken to by the Spirit of God.” You could be convicted of your sins by the Spirit of God. You could be almost in the Kingdom—but still die and go to hell."

https://billygraham.org/decision-magazine/january-2018/almost-whats-keeping-you-from-coming-to-christ-now/

From his CRUSADE. Undoubtedly, Graham understood the meaning of, 'crusade' from the horrific history of such, and felt this was an appropriate description of his mission as a 'religious nut'.

Further, your beloved ('love, love') Charles Stanley recommends the same attitude in evangelism that Paul had. He was 'not ashamed of the gospel'. Sounds like this woman at the hospital whom you wish to shame and control (and gossip about), is following the example of Christ.

From Stanley:

"Focus your conversation on the person of Jesus Christ. Questions like “Who do you think Jesus Christ was?” or “Why do you think He died?” bring non-Christians to consider the core of saving faith. Paul wrote: “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Rom. 1:16). Then, if any rejection occurs, you’ll know it centers on Christ, not you."

https://www.intouch.org/read/equipped-for-evangelism

The same men you adore would be very proud of this woman who is sharing the gospel. It is likely she has the attitude recommended by Stanley and would take your opposition and attempts to prevent her from sharing the good news of Jesus as evidence that she is partaking in the sufferings of her savior and your rejection of her confirms she is proclaiming the gospel despite persecution from the likes of you.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Patients, their visitors, official vendors and
> those attending meetings or training have good
> reasons to be in a hospital, along with medical
> and other staff. Anyone without a legitimate
> reason to be there is a trespasser and should be
> told to leave.

>...left by trespassing religious nuts.


HER HUSBAND IS IN THE HOSPITAL.

Horrible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 08:25PM by carameldreams.

Most normal people will not read churchy material, not even in a doctor's office.

The minute they realize what it is they will put it down.

That's what I do. When people are in a waiting room because they have cancer it changes the dynamics of what they see in plain view on end tables for reading material.

It's disturbing, and for cancer patients we do not need that additional stressor on top of the other challenges we are dealing with.

I think most people are busy on their phones in waiting rooms; largely afraid to pick up/touch any type of reading materials. I never met anybody that has experienced any religious conversion through the "exciting words" of a tract or flyer. People convert due to relationships with others.

I think there's a scripture where Jesus tells his followers to go forth and do annoying, inappropriate, self-righteous things to win the hearts and souls of mankind.

When I have been a patient in the hospital, I found the visit of the Catholic priest especially enjoyable - though I am not Catholic. He does not try to convert people or even discuss theology but, rather, acts to cheer up and encourage patients and bless them in that way.

That, IMO, is what epitomizes pastoral care by a minister in a hospital setting. I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that except for someone adamantly opposed to a minister of the cloth, or one of another persuasion coming into their room to be spoken to in a comforting, encouraging manner.

Chaplains during wartime have this down to an art form from stories I've read on the battlefield.

When I went back today the pamphlets were not there. I asked the women at one of the desks about it, and they said it isn't uncommon for people to leave things lying around in the waiting areas. They agreed that proselytizing materials would not be tolerated, and to let them know when they resurface.

It may be someone has already removed them - so it is possible it is being addressed without my needing to say anything.

I wonder how people would feel if I left a flyer that stated, "Your fake God has abandoned you, that is why you're here today at this hospital,"

Religious materials shouldn't be dumped off at roadside rest stops or national park information centers. Such junk also doesn't belong in laundromats or hotel lobbies or in map slots at tourist kiosks or in motel rooms.

I've seen it in all of those places and discarded all but the samples I showed to management.

The materials I've seen were sometimes left by mormons, JWs, and extremist Christians. Doing this makes them look foolish and such tactics are never likely to entice increased membership or interest, just bad PR.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2018 09:14AM by Cheryl.

Prepare to have your brain turn into mush...

https://www.google.com/search?q=chick+tracts&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS707US707&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU74Glwd_ZAhXH0FMKHcnyArcQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=949

I’ve seen tracts , also,inside books at bookstores. Most were JW and evangelical fundamental tracts.

I did sort of give that woman an earful when she started in about her religion. The thumbnail sketch of my own religious upbringing ie, Mormons going back to Joseph Smith on my pappy's side. And Jewish and Protestant on my mammy's. I then described how my mormon great grandmother put her foot down to polygamy when some woman tried courting my great grandpa. How she told him in no uncertain terms that no husband of hers would be a polygamist. And in return he told her he didn't know she loved him so much before he saw her get so riled up as she did when the other woman from their ward meeting house was putting the moves on her husband.

Well, that woman had heard just about enough of my Mormon ancestry lol. She jumped up like the devil himself had just entered the room (picture me Megan - Big Grin (jkz)) and ran out of the waiting area. Maybe, just maybe, we'll maintain respectful boundaries going forward. If not, I have more where that came from. ;-)

Don't report it to staff. Report it to hospital administration.

No, it's not passive-aggressive. It's aggressive.

Thanks CateS.

Good point.