Just curious what other exmormons think about this one.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Why_were_%22penalties%22_removed_from_the_Endowment%3F

"The endowment said nothing about the consequences of violating covenants"

"The ceremony said nothing about what would happen to people if they revealed that which they had covenanted to keep secret"

"the temple ceremony did not involve descriptions of what God (or others) would do to someone if they failed to keep their covenants, but instead illustrated the seriousness with which the participant should make the temple covenants."

"Our common vernacular is laced with mentions of penalties: Solemn claims are often followed with, for instance, "cross my heart, hope to die" or "may Heaven strike me dead"

ELOHIM: This is the sign. The execution of the Penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side.

I will now explain the covenant and obligation of secrecy which are associated with this token, its name, sign and penalty, and which you will be required to take upon yourselves. If I were receiving my own Endowment today, and had been given the name of “John” as my New Name, I would repeat in my mind these words, after making the sign at the same time representing the execution of the penalty:

I, John, covenant that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, and penalty. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2018 11:16AM by Darren Steers.

Thanks Darren. The voice of Elohim also said "The representation of the execution of the penalties indicates different ways in which life may be taken."

This is a CULT!!!!

Yep, Darren provided the relevant quotes.

UN-fairmormon lied.
Again.

Then there's that comment at the end:

"This kind of language or approach was not foreign to the early Christians' rituals either."

Yes, but mormons claim that those christians were corrupt, fallen away, doing satan's work instead of god's. Joseph Smith himself said that.

So FAIR is admitting that they're just a corrupt and tools of satan as other churches by using "this kind of language."

Oops.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2018 11:27AM by ificouldhietokolob.

Those of us who had our endowments before 1990 know FairMormon is lying. But younger Mormons who read that and think it gives a good answer are being seriously misled.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2018 11:27AM by mikemitchell.

I'm one of them.
First time through in 1978. Last time through in 1981.

I did those death-gestures and agreed to the "penalties."
I know for a fact they're lying.

I did them too. It was explicitly and most certainly a reference to termination of life as a punishment for revealing the tokens.

Lies (or teaching people to lie) are Nothing New or unusual for LDS, Inc.

That's for sure. I suspect that the author of that FairMormon article was endowed prior to 1990 and knows the truth. Younger Mormons who read it won't know from personal experience and can swallow the lies without knowing better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2018 11:48AM by mikemitchell.

I went through in 1968, about 2 weeks before leaving on my mission. I spent 3 long months in the Provo training mission, and we went with a van full of missionaries (not the ladies) to the Manti Temple on a beautiful fall day.

On the way back, there was a guy in the van from a different group and he was trying to get people to talk about this stuff, can’t remember specifically but he was told by another person that “You can’t discuss that outside the temple. Stop it, I will tell the teacher”.

I pretty much ignored it for as many times as I went through the temple, admittedly not as many times as I was asked to go. Still astounds me that they had us participate in that kind of stuff. Amazing.

The key question here is, what does any of this have to do with religion? The fact is, it is an integral part of the Mormon religion, which tells me that they worship violence and intimidation more than they worship love and tolerance.

I know I never felt like it brought me closer to Jesus when I pretended to slash my own throat. It creeped me out and made me feel like I was in a cult.

"The key question here is, what does any of this have to do with religion?"

The key answer is; Nothing. But, the explanation is, the "church" was never meant to be a religion. It was a money, power, and sex scheme, dressed up as a religion. And enough rubes fell for it.
Trying to apply rational, logical comparisons to LDS Inc. vs. other religions won't work because mormonism is not a religion, it's a pyramid scheme cult. Always has been.

Yep, did the penalties. I'm glad I went through so I could see it with my own eyes. I really can't believe people can go through the temple and believe it is anything of value. There is something just SO WRONG about the temple.

I went through the temple in 1961 just before my mission and didn't go again till after my mission. I went sporadically after that until 1970s when I was stationed in Germany with the Air Force and we attended the Swiss Temple a lot. They had sessions in English for American Servicemen. My wife and I became temple workers for those sessions so we became quite familiar with the ceremony.

The temple president at the time was noted for his insight into temple ordinances and he used to give lectures as part of the sessions.

Even in my TBM days I never took any of the ceremony seriously. My entry into Heaven was dependent on remembering a "new name." Seriously? If I didn't repeat word perfectly the tokens of the priesthood perfectly I would be kept out of Heaven. Seriously?
And the death threats. Seriously?

The lectures mentioned above went into a lot of ethereal notions that I don't remember but seemed to me at the time to go way beyond what was really church doctrine.

I haven't been to church in 25 years and my last temple visit was in 1977. I know there have been many changes since to make the ceremony more streamlined and more palatable to members, but still the whole temple thing seems inconsistent with the way the church operates otherwise.

I was stationed in Germany for some 13 years. In the 1980s, we went to the Swiss temple several times. My most searing memory was that we always got talked into buying the 5 franc meal chit, and ended up eating the worst possible food in Europe every time. (Of course, the German Swiss aren't known for their food, anyway, are they?)

I couldn't believe that to be a good TBM, I had to agree to be killed if I revealed a bunch of secret handshakes. As for the rest of the ceremony, after going through a couple of times I thought it became painfully boring. I am mystified by those people who claim they learn something new every time they go through. It just isn't that deep.

My 17 month old daughter learns something new every time we read her the book, 'Touch and Feel Baby Animals'. It's not that deep either. LOL

This is Jesus’s obligation of secrecy—

Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.“ John 18:20.

Jesus only said that publicly because what he was REALLY doing was sacred. And secret.

(nearly an actual quote, by the way, from an actual mormon; said to me about 20 years ago) :)

High-5, Brother Hie! I heard that too.

I have always thought that this explains the accounts of apostates in the early church being "put out of the way" for speaking against the leaders or some other crime of apostasy deemed worthy of administering the penalties. This was especially common during Brigham Young's reign.

My MIL who is a descendant of Dudley Leavitt told us once that her progenitors knew someone who had been dealt with in this way. I am sure word of such things got around and had a way of silencing apostates and keeping the sheep in line.

And Mormons always want to know why they aren’t considered Christian.

Wife & I had some 'converts' who went thru after a year;
they Never came to church again...

Ummm, yeah... I remember saying that. "I, NormaRae will never reveal the blah blah blah.. rather than do so I would cross my heart, hope to die, stick a thousand needles in my eye."

Same here. saw it, said it, did it. pay lay ail,
naked touching, open shield, live and film, bad breath and all.

Yes, I'm under 50 and I remember them.

I went through the temple in August 1990, just a few months after the penalties were removed. But I most definitely knew about the penalties as it was a BIG topic of conversation at the time. It was a very big deal to many people and was even told in my temple prep course about the endowment ceremony being changed to remove the penalties. There was nothing secret about the penalties, and it was no secret the church removed them. I guess they are hoping that enough time has passed that they can get away with lying about it now.

alsd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I went through the temple in August 1990, just a
> few months after the penalties were removed. But I
> most definitely knew about the penalties as it was
> a BIG topic of conversation at the time. It was a
> very big deal to many people and was even told in
> my temple prep course about the endowment ceremony
> being changed to remove the penalties. There was
> nothing secret about the penalties, and it was no
> secret the church removed them. I guess they are
> hoping that enough time has passed that they can
> get away with lying about it now.

The bottom line is the bottom line. The church will change anything if it bothers the membership to the point they want to leave. I expect to see even more changes to the temple. They need the place to draw in the membership to generate tithing funds. Temple marriages are a big drawing card and good way to make the members tow the line.

Who ultimately hold the power in the church are the members. If too many complain about something the leadership will have to accommodate out of fear of losing membership.

The article said “the penalties confused people more than it helped them”. First of all there was NO confusion unless a person happened to be brain dead. To even insinuate that people didn’t
Really understand what was going on is offensive on so many levels. Really!!

The thoughts that came to me that day were these: How did I let myself get caught up in this, it was disgusting. It was NOTHING
even close to spiritual or uplifting. It was nothing to do with
Religion or the savior. The whole experience was invasive to
My mind, my body and most of all my well being. I was so traumatized when I left alone as none of my family were allowed
To be present. I had to completely change my clothing because
Way back then we had to wear temple garments that came to the wrist and to the ankles. Oh yes and everything was a big fat secret. Interesting enough the only other time I was told to
Keep a secret was when my father was doing things he shouldn’t
Have been doing.

Only 21 and supposedly my wedding day

Of course they’re lying. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Lying Dumb Shits.

"I, CNB, covenant that I will lie in public and never reveal the whole Secret Polygamy Club thing and the ripped-off Masonic stuff along with all the *other* stupid mumbo jumbo. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken."

I also went through the temple, when they did the throat-slashing, chest slashing, and Hiri-Kiri-style disembowelment pantomimes. I took the death penalties very seriously! I was so scared that I actually teared-up, as I said these nasty things, and--I swear I did this--I crossed my fingers underneath the robe. I screamed in my mind, "Please, God, I don't mean this! I don't mean this! I don't want to die!"

I can't believe how devout I used to be. I always sensed the presence of Satan in the temple, but was afraid to tell anyone about this, for fear that people would think I was the evil one. Our Mormon teachers always told us that because temples were dedicated to the Lord, that the spirit of Satan could not enter the temple. So, I was not only potentially evil, I was also crazy and a liar. So. I stayed silent about the temple being "evil", until years later, when others started writing about it on RFM.

For me I felt that going into a Mormon temple was no different
Than being asked to sign a contract that I was not allowed to
Read before signing. How does one go through that only to be told that They should never discuss this with their new husband.
As the years moved on, this Mormon secret keeping set what turned out To be a dangerous precedent in our marriage. “Secrets became the rule rather than the exception”

Mother who knows, I was shocked over and over again especially when I found out that ”Satan” had an active roll in the ceremony
and at that time was dressed like a minister from another church
LOL I actually did what you did and crossed my fingers

I went in a year after the penalties were removed and I noticed that some of the patrons couldn't help themselves but to pantomime the self inflicted penalties. So even though the church had "shortened" the ceremony, some of these old timers continued as nothing had changed. Naturally, the temple workers were motioning them to stop.

Mormonism is Ingsoc. History is fluid and managed for the masses. The important thing is to make the party look good (faith-promoting stories only).