Hello,

This is a follow-up to a question I posted last week. That thread is located here:

Main reason for leaving the Mormon church
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2088978,2088978#msg-2088978

I would like to have posted this follow-up in the original thread but for some reason a notice was placed in that thread (less than a day after submitting my question) stating that the thread had been closed. I waited awhile hoping that the closure might be temporary and the thread would be reopened or that I might receive an email with some type of explanation but neither of those two things occurred.

I hope neither my question nor the thread itself was felt to be objectionable or gave rise to a complaint, etc, but regardless of the reason for closure, I regret that it’s now just left sort of hanging. In that form it seems to imply that after posting my original question, I was content to just grab whatever information I was after and leave without even so much as a thank you or any acknowledgment of the many people who contributed responses.

If anyone knows of a possible reason for the thread being closed or, more importantly, if there is any way to post a final comment (or at the least, insert a link to here), I’d appreciate a heads-up. In the meantime, I am opening this new thread in the hopes that some, if not many, of those who contributed comments to the earlier thread will see it.

Regarding the original thread, I am very grateful to each of you who shared comments. I know full well how deeply ingrained a person’s religious beliefs can be and I can only imagine how difficult it is to revisit, let alone write about, the type of anguish and pain-filled experiences from the past and strongly negative thoughts and feelings still present that many of you related. For that reason, I repeat my thanks and ask you to please know that I have taken the time to carefully read each response. In fact, I’ve gone through them twice now and made quite a few notes about what I have learned and also what I have felt.

I confess that I was a bit hesitant even registering for this site let alone posting my question but I am now very glad I did. Many of the comments touched me deeply and brought my emotions close to the surface. And overall, the most prominent result of this process has been a profound feeling of sadness — not of the type that points a finger or places blame in one direction or another — but just sadness for the pain and sorrow people so often experience in their lives. Thus, my aim now is to try to be kinder and have more acceptance and understanding for people around me, regardless of their religious affiliation or the direction they may be headed in that regard.

By the way, a few people included references in their comments and some posed questions with an invitation for me to respond. Regarding the references, I have already looked at some of them (in the past few days) and it is my intent to at least become familiar with all of them (ie I shouldn’t commit to reading/viewing them completely until knowing what that involves).

As for the questions, it was not my intent when I posted my initial question, to have this thread be or become a two-way conversation. Rather, my hope and aim was to obtain a better understanding of the topic of the thread (ie why people have left the church). For that reason my preference is to not include any of my own thoughts or contrasting views here. Having said that however, I am not opposed to sharing my perspectives and beliefs with someone who truly has an interest in knowing them if there is a place in this forum where that would be appropriate.

Thanks again.

You're way overthinking it. Threads are closed as a matter of course at about 60 posts. Anyone wishing to continue the discussion is encouraged to start a new thread on the same subject. It says as much in the "thread closed" announcement at the end.

That's what happened to the thread you referenced. Sometimes threads are closed or removed because of having gone off the rails in one form or another, posters are not encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation in those cases. This is relatively rare, though some posters more expert at getting deleted might argue that point. :)

You're in a bit of a spot about responding to pointed questions.

You're not allowed to preach in any way--especially about Mormonism.

So, if after reading all of the posts, you still feel like you are a comfortable devout Mormon--you're probably done here.

Hopefully you gathered some information and insight.

Good luck on your journey.

You've got a point - or two - there dear Dorothy.

I try to abide by the rules of participation in RFM discussions. The first one listed is "Mormon Apologists: Go Home."

If it were my website I would not forbid Mormon Apologists from participating in discussions or even challenging our position.

I am quite confident that we at RFM would have no difficulty in demonstrating the falsity of Church's foundational claims relying on historical and current evidence as well as reason.

My only requirement would be that everyone participate respectfully as you have done. I have always thought that debate is a great arena of exploring the depths of a subject and helping truth seekers arrive at the truth of a matter.

I for one would be interested in hearing what your views are.

"I am not opposed to sharing my perspectives and beliefs"

Remember, though, that we (or most of us, anyway) are ex-mormons. To paraphrase a couplet denied by Hinckley on national TV:

"As you are, we once were.
As we are, you may become."

Whether you're a cafeteria or traditional mormon, we already have a pretty good idea of your beliefs. And many of us shared whatever perspectives you have.

To be honest, there really isn't anything you can teach us about mormonism or The Gospel™. If you try, you *will* be challenged, and FYI this is a VERY tough crowd. You'll have to defend each point and every claim. I've seen it tried, and it never ends well for the wannabe apologist.

Do you think you're Samuel the Lamanite? Mormons love to talk about how bold he was and how the arrows couldn't touch him because god. They don't bother to read to the end of the story, where Samuel the Brave ran away to avoid capture and was never seen again.

Oh, there was a follow-up thread after the first one closed. Maybe you missed it:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2089540

Threads are closed when they reach 60 comments. It had nothing to do with your post or any of the responses given so don't take that personally :)

As long as you are not coming here with the idea of engaging in apologetics or preaching Mormonism, you are welcome here. :)

My main reasons for leaving Mormonism were polygamy, polyandry, kinder hook plates, helen mar kimball, book of abraham, different first vision, hidden tithing (not open books what are they doing with the tithing money?), temple oath, ....

http://zelphontheshelf.com/1733-2/

Go forth and study!

Although most of the undoing of Mormonism comes from Mormonism itself (JS's History Of The Church, BH Roberts' History of the LDS Church, BY's Journal of Discourses, etc.) there are many well documented academic sources outside the church that are important to research objectively. There are volumes and volumes of LDS leaders' own words that explain the origins of the religion that you don't hear at church.

You can't un-see what you saw here.

I'm guessing many of us were adult Mormons before you were born. We studied. Testimonies don't work here. That's the first sign someone is resorting to a memorized defense. We are generally helpful if you need references or have questions.

Good luck in your quest.

To be honest, I only clean my own toilet. Big organizations usually pay janitors for that type of work.

"I am not opposed to sharing my perspectives and beliefs with someone who truly has an interest in knowing them if there is a place in this forum where that would be appropriate."

I am curious about your position on where the Book of Mormon stories allegedly happened. Are you a supporter of two Cumorahs or do you hold the position that the final battle happened in New York?

I was just curious if devoutmormon goes for the Rod Meldrum hype or FairMormon. Today's Mormonism is divided over Cumorah and a devout member can't swing both ways. Most end up in one camp or the other. But I'm with you, it was all made up.

Just quit demonizing those who leave. In mainstream Christianity people often leave one denomination for another over "doctrinal differences." In Mormonism it is the custom to insult those who leave (supposedly over laziness, offense, or wanting to sin.) When this question is raised in GD class or priesthood/RS, I hope you will be brave enough to offer some of the real reasons.

Welcome, mormony Mormon. I too would like such a discussion, but it’s against the rules. As a devout believer, you probably can’t fathom the amount of suffering many here have gone through because of the church. This place is a sanctuary from gospel discussion. Mormonism is very good at generating hard core atheists. What that tells me is that usually the hurt is so deep it doesn’t heal. No religion should hurt that much. If you want to analyze the destructive power of the cult, why it’s so pernicious, we could go there. There are so many problems.

Between the Peter Pan mentality and the soft tyranny, there are a lot of screwed up heads. People are forced to grow up when they’re adults rather than when they’re children, when it’s easy. Gosh, it’s so weird that lies aren’t your friend. Who knew?

The main problem is with the “Plan of happiness” pounded into our heads, which has joy as the ultimate virtue and suffering as something bad. Suffering and threats of suffering were used to strip us of our humanity, so it’s a sore spot. Mormonism puts you in a box. Who you are is outside the box. It has to be. A house of lies cannot stand. Now me, I made peace with my suffering. I’m grateful for all of the train wrecks Mormonism caused in my life. If I didn’t come here to suffer, why am I here instead of somewhere else? So I say to God, “Bring it on motherfucker. Give me more. Burn me to the ground.” To paraphrase Mel Brooks, it’s good to be Human. Life is a gift, the best gift of all. I let the church try to con me out of it. It failed. But it’s still a monster.

BOOM!!!

Dear DevoutMormon,

Why do you even care about the reasons? The real reasons people leave your precious cult?

What is it within you that encourages you to want to hear the stories of those that have left the cult?

And if you want to know some of the reasons, there is a biography section of this website, where people have written their exit stories. You could read there and get a flavour of what ails the church and the people within it.

Main Reason for leaving TMC?

It has NOTHING to offer the lover and liver of [true] life. Reasons weren't needed.

The grass is greener on the other side (it's brown in Mormon culture; it's dead). I like green grass. I went over to the "other side".

I am ALL ABOUT "FREE Agency"...

Choice, Honesty, Openness
Fairness, Equality, LOVE
Voice, Creativity, Simplicity

Happiness, "ETERNALLY"
(which means right now baby)

There didn't need to be a reason, unless you consider the 'church's' point of following truth and rightness. According to the teachings of the church, there are a million and one reasons for leaving a lie. Dissociation with wrong and harmful things. Reasons for seeking LIGHT, even if it leads you (safely) out of the dark.

I simply removed the 'shadows', stumbling blocks, the elephant in the room, the gross OBSTACLE [to TRUE - and lasting - happiness] (the main reason for suffering, [living within a lie], the LDScult/ 'church' (baggage) itself, and the related dogma, superstitions, pitfalls, lies, traps, catch-22s, perversions, limitations, demands, devilishness and excess troubles), to have that divine, unimpeded and unadulterated (and LDSinc taking credit for 'everything'), pure and healthy life [BACK].

What's wrong with that.

M@t

P.$: You try too hard for too little.

> This is a sincere [answer] and it is not my intent or desire to create contention or promote ill will. Rather, I am hopeful that it will prompt friendly and constructive [thoughts].
>

PPS. Did you have another question today or have you just been thinking again?

As BIC we were all indoctrinated and brainwashed but when you reach adulthood the only way to continue the process is to self administer the indoctrination. I watch my family do it constantly---reassuring themselves over and over that the church is true no matter what the facts say. And one of the main methods they use to reassure themselves, to claim faith, is to see exMormons as lost. It is vital to their process to see us as lost in order for them to feel found. Isn't that what you are doing.

Get some guts. Face the facts. Or isn't your testimony strong enough?

The fact that you refuse to engage in actual discussion means you know deep down that Mormonism is indefensible. Period. I don't buy that you are here out of curiosity or for some spiritually general motive.

my therapist told me that she had a virtual reality helmet and every time any kind of little doubt crept in, she had to put it back on. She has always been over the top and it is obvious to all of us that she has to keep convincing herself it is true. She was anti before she went back.

And she obviously likes to see us all as lost. Especially me. I've posted about it many times before.

P.S. I like your challenge to the OP, too. I would never have found myself on a board like this one when I was a mormon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2018 11:20AM by cl2.

The Church is false.

You are welcome.

HH =)

devoutmormon

I was a genuine believer - absolutely convinced it was true. I was teaching Gospel Doctrine when i began researching Noah and the Ark story for one of the lessons. I noted the LDS position was that there was a global flood which bothered me as i recall from geology that position had been disproven so i looked into it some more and yes the early LDS position by Smith was the global flood was real, but also that the earth was really in thousand year dispensations.

I decided i would model the Ark on a computer converting the OT measurements into cubic MM's and then calculate the maximum interior volume. I then took just the document species on earth with latin names and placed them in the Ark. To deal with the random sizing i decided to place them in as embryo's in test tubes (this being the most apologetic route i could think of) so circa 20mm x 150mm each. The result was i still couldn't fit them all in and have room for people or food or anything else.

This told me the story was highly unlikely to be true, yet Smith claimed it was. At the same time i was reading Euthyphro, the Plato dialogue on good and evil in which Socrates asks what is Good and seeks a definition (it's a superb dialogue) and the answers made me realise that objective good was a myth it was only ever a relative subjective good that existed.

Before i knew it i was able to see the LDS scriptures didn't appear to stack up. This caused me huge problems and internal reflection going down the old roads of prayer, faith, fasting, contemplation.

At that point i discover the Book of Abraham issues and then the CES letter. Things suddenly made sense - i didn't need to jump through hoops resolving Good and Evil or a Global Flood because the evidence proved it was all false anyway.

This however was a world shaking shock to me. I literally didn't know how to proceed and recall wishing i'd never asked as the world now seemed so uncertain. I faced being honest with my wife and family, risking being told i was a sinner or i was somehow inadequate in faith. But when i presented the evidence my wife and her family read it and came to the same painful conclusion - we'd been lied to - and that is the game changer - the realisation that those you trusted most, that you gave your time, your money, you testified of were liars or at best decided themselves and were over inflating their 'sure knowledge'.

Today i dislike mormonism greatly. All the good it could do isn't assuaged by all the evil it does do by lying and deceiving. If LDS leaders were honest they'd admit they've never seen God, never had a face to face chat, never heard his actual voice in the room like a conference call. Their experience is no different that yours or mine - think on something and an impression forms and based on that impression you feel good or bad respectively. LDS rules state that if it is LDS related it must be good which frames expectations on how to feel. Thus you get the answer you've been told to expect if anything at all.

I discussed my concerns with my Bishop who was out of his depth and had no idea about the CES issues. He then sent me to the Stake President who admitted he knew of many of the issues. He then offered me a post on the stake asking me to keep what i knew to myself. I refused at which point he told me he'd excommunicate me for disclosing the facts he admitted knowing about were true to anyone else - hence he was literally saying don't tell other members the truth.

That for me was the final straw. I realised he was intentionally withholding information from members because belief and membership matters more than facts and truth. Thus the church as a vehicle was now defunct.

When a movement with a purpose decides the movement matters more than the purpose, then that movement is now lost. This is mormonism. It will say anything to seek to morph into an acceptable form in order to thrive or survive.

If you're old enough you will have seen Black people move from the children of Cain or Ham to the disavowal of that whole prophetic narrative. You'll have seen the Temple rituals change. You'll have seen the BOA go from written by the hand of Abraham himself to the Book of the Dead scrolls inspired Smith to write the story of Abraham. Retreat after retreat after retreat.

Four years out and i feel free. I'm glad i left. My fears over the structure of the world and the collapse of good and evil never materialised - i felt emboldened because of it, because for once, my world rested on me chasing what ought to be true, how i ought to live, how my world ought to be, based on science, reason, evidence, and not myth or dogma.

My family are happier out. I don't need to mix dogma and twist the reality to fit. I make my life and live best i choose. It is exhilarating at times.

But getting there was like leaving a cult. It really is and you'll only ever see that after the fact, looking back you can see how it twisted, how it shaped thinking, how that was never real. Thus when people call it a cult (something i once hated) i now see they're right.

If an anti-mormon is someone who now speaks against the LDs movement and points out to others the issues and lies then i guess that makes me an anti mormon.

Who knew that i, a guy that loved being LDS and thought i'd die LDS would one day be vocal in opposition to it because of the strength of my conviction that it is now a knowing fraud.

I’m 59 years old. That’s as good a place as any to start.

DW has Mormon roots all the way back to JS. Two of her ancestors were JS body guards, one was tried and acquitted regarding the Nauvoo Expositor destruction. Me, I’m a convert...joined as a senior in high school in 1976 after my parents divorced. The ward became a second family for me. They were good people, for me the Golden Age of Mormonism.

I was a TBM without question. I bought everything hook, line and sinker. After a year at BYU I was in the Dakotas on a mission. Loved it...had two great mission presidents (one with whom I continue to correspond). Incidentally, my parents got back together when I was a missionary—consider the reinforcement I felt with regards to my spiritual choices. Back to the story. My second mission president had files, lots of them, and he loved church history but he loved the real history. I started reading the articles in his files. I was mission secretary for over a year so I had extended access. We talked a lot about church history. He convinced me one could be a TBM in spite of the historical “problems.”

Apostasy started when I went back to BYU and became aware of the discomfort of the leadership with regards to history. I could not get how something I found so Faith promoting was so threatening. I graduated, returned to Illinois, enrolled at U of I and got married. As the years went by I became convinced that less and less of the church narrative was factual until I concluded none of it was. I was on the high council at this time. In the meantime DW was on her own journey. To use Jeff Holland’s metaphor, we were camped on the fringes and the camp site shrunk until we were totally outside.

Years later I received a letter from the SP instructing me to quit, come back or be fired. DW and I resigned.

I am an atheist but don’t feel I’ve lost anything. I like being an atheist...it is liberating! In general I had a good Mormon experience. I left because what I was getting wasn’t worth what I was putting in.

I have close relatives who are Mormons. I barely recognize their church experience. I considered Mormonism a lot more exciting in my day. Today it is so boring it is not worth commenting further. So I won’t.

Why, THERE you are!
Welcome Aboard!

I know where you are because once I was there.

You cannot from there know where I am now. Because it is lightyears away and beyond from who I once was.

You are quite definitely on your way out to liberation, but don't yet consciously know it and would strenuously deny it. To even yourself. But inside, right now, reading this very statement causes a jolt and slight horror. Dread. Momentary, but there nonetheless. Because the body knows it is true.

You'll cover it with doctrine and prayer. Scripture. More callings. Perhaps a mission (as did I.) But inside there is a churn. A pressure. An un-namable anxiety that will not stop. Can't put words on it - because it isn't from words, it's not from the part of the brain where lives language - it is from something much deeper, from the what-is-eternal and True within you. But whatever it is, it's building. Steadily. More turns of the wheel to tighten down that watertight hatch and hold back the inevitable sea will work. But only for a time. And you will blame yourself and feel a failure. Because that is what you were taught to do. But this too is all part of the plan.

----------

And then one day, years from now, you will realize you are seeing forever across a clear sunlit sky. And looking back, be incredulous that ever you could have so completely locked yourself down in a cold dark box without sunlight; that you could have been so cruel and heartless to you. And you will no longer hold anger at these who taught you to so enslave yourself. And you will be grateful, every day, to be and feel Alive.

And the fear will be gone.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2018 03:32PM by zenjamin.

Yeah...DREAD...I swear that fits perfectly...DREAD.

Now you've been marked. Spirits are on the move.

Spring and all its promise has arrived.....tiny buds forming on the trees, bright yellow crocuses reaching to meet the sunlight.

My wish for you is to continue your reach. Freedom, discovery, and honesty are right around the corner.