My cousin related a story to me about Jesus on the cross. Apparently some authority in the church stated that Jesus refused the vinegar because he knew it had alcohol in it. I mentioned the marriage of Cana, where Jesus turned the water into wine. Nope, not wine, it was grape juice! :)

So I went looking for any proof of the story she related to me. Nothing anywhere.. In fact lds.org had tons of stuff showing Jesus drank wine and was not under any commands not to.

That doesn't make me doubt her story though, since when have the authorities of the LDS church been consistent anyway?

So I am reaching out here... has anyone else heard of this?

There was no grape juice to speak of back then because there was no way to preserve it. The grape juice naturally ferments. So yes, it was wine at the wedding.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2018 09:05AM by summer.

One argument is that grape juice in Biblical times was just alcoholic enough to control bacteria, but not so strong to induce intoxication. I don't buy this.

If you read the story of the miracle at Cana carefully, you may notice that the "master of the feast" was surprised that the bridegroom had "saved the best for last." As many of us know, after several drinks, one's taste buds are somewhat anesthetized, so one does not notice the nuances of quality alcoholic beverage. So savvy drinkers enjoy their higher quality wine (or single malt or whatever) first, and partake of the inferior stuff later.

This was obviously the practice at a First Century wedding. The master of the feast, a professional who was not drinking, noticed the difference. The wine Jesus created was not only high-quality, but genuinely alcoholic.

Very good point.

If some mormon says the grape juice/wine in Biblical times didn't have enough alcohol to get someone drunk, ask them to explain Lot's daughters getting him drunk so they could sleep with him and Laban passed out in the street so drunk that Nephi could behead him easily.

The classicist, Robert Graves, suggested that the master of the feast was Jesus himself, and that the reference to wine was his teaching, turning simple conversation (water) into heady truths that intoxicated his guests.

Graves also suggests that the fishes and loaves lesson was an instruction on the division of the calendar into weeks and months. One of the tasks the Messiah was expected to do was to reform the calendar, according to Graves.

For more, read Graves' novel, "King Jesus."

It seems academics are wont to come up with something--ANYthing--to get published. The Bible has been treated left & right, top to bottom, and inside-out, it's almost impossible to come up with something novel, never mind original, to stand out, regardless of your theological persuasion.


This Graves' theory strikes me as one such "scholar." You'd think there would be a reference somewhere else in the NT about Jesus being an inn keeper or somebody in the hospitality field? Nothing, natch. Jesus used mostly agricultural imagery and references.

What Graves is doing is turning an event into an allegory.
water = idle conversation
wine = intoxicating truth

Huh?

Or is it that the Wedding at Cana was an event created out of thin air? :)

olderelder Wrote:
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> Or is it that the Wedding at Cana was an event
> created out of thin air? :)

you mean just like Jesus??? ....well OK the (mythical) New Testament Jesus character is actually based on a compilation of highly established mythical characters that go way back, so that would not be out of thin air.

Sorry, your friend is spouting non-sense. Just do a simple Google search on wine and the New Testament or wine and Jewish customs. It appears some of the belief that it was grape juice is a result of the successful marketing of Welch's grape juice in the 1800's. I remember reading years ago from a Jewish history journal about wine making. There was no grape juice except for maybe a few days after crushing the grapes. The fermentation process was encouraged in the storage as it made it safer to drink with the added benefit of some alcohol for mild intoxication.

Defenders of the grape juice theory might argue, "Yeah, but, you see, Jesus had just created it a few minutes before, so it hadn't had time to ferment. Besides, Jesus had the magical power to create any impossible thing, like grape juice that wouldn't ferment, or non-alcoholic wine that was better than any regular wine. And maybe what made it taste better was the lack of nasty alcohol. Neener neener neener."

Early Mormons used wine in the sacrament. When my parents were kids in the early 1900s, wine was still used in the sacrament. I suspect the practice ended with Prohibition.

D&C 89 (A.K.A. the Word of Wisdom) says:

5) That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. 6) And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

The WoW could've said juice, or it could've said something like, "pure wine of the grape of the vine, which is to say, unfermented juice," but it doesn't.

We also know early Mormons (including JS and BY) were producing and drinking wine, beer and distilled spirits (and drinking coffee and tea) BECAUSE THE WoW WAS NOT A COMMANDMENT, only advice.

BESIDES THAT: IF IT'S VINEGAR, IT'S NOT ALCOHOL ANY MORE! LOOK IT UP!!!!

Sorry for the caps.

Exactly. Vinegar is the result of Acetobacter, a type of bacteria eating all of the alcohol from wine or other alcoholic beverage. That bacteria is actually good since it doesn't allow the dangerous forms to grow, and while some vinegar is made accidentally, in many cases, it's deliberately done.

Romans actually drank vinegar in addition to wine because it was safer to drink than water, and some Bible historians think that when Jesus was given the vinegar, it was actually a rare act of kindness because it quenched his thirst.

Grape juice as we know it wasn't available until pasteurization was known, and even then, if it's not refrigerated, it will start to ferment due to yeast in the grape skins, and from the air.

Thanks. I particularly like this tidbit of info.

My source of LDS teachings was my favorite family in Star Valley.

She said wine use to be part of the LDS services, but too many took advantage of the free wine that they'd over indulge and get drunk. Substitute grape juice for the wine was the solution.

Along the same lines, Emma was fed up the tobacco spit all over the floor of her house and brow beat JS to take care of the problem (maybe she made him clean up the mess). Solution all tobacco was forbidden.

Interesting how events turn into miracles or revelation from the Lord., seagulls and the locus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2018 01:39PM by tumwater.

That was always one of the.most.stupidly.held.positions.of Mormon thought.

Stupid.stupid.stupid

And maybe the white bread too. Properly and Biblically speaking, the sacrament should be genuine wine and unleavened bread, like matzo crackers.

caffiend Wrote:
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> And maybe the white bread too. Properly and
> Biblically speaking, the sacrament should be
> genuine wine and unleavened bread, like matzo
> crackers.


You mean like the Catholics and Orthodox, if I am not mistaken?

Joseph and Brigham didn't drink alcoholic beverages either unless you read the real history instead of the sanitized correlated version.

At the last supper Jesus drank fermented wine, positively, because it was Passover. The time from grape harvest to Passover proves it:

Passover happens after spring equinox, then wait for the next full moon, the next Saturday is Passover (Sunday is Easter). This always happens in Spring, usually April. This year Easter is April 1.

The last ripe grapes are harvested in late fall, here in California, and also in the holy land, so if you have fresh juice, it’s still late fall or early winter.

By spring, all grape juice, thanks to the naturally occurring wild yeast on the skins, is fermented. Alcohol.

Since there was no refrigeration in the year 0001, the only way you could drink juice that old (November to April) was if it WAS fermented, otherwise it would spoil, rotten.

Jesus (if there ever was one) drank wine.

I'm calling "Fake Jews!" to this, or perhaps "Fake Juice!"

In Catholicism it is invalid to substitute anything but actual wine for the sacrament of holy communion. And has been since the beginning, in Roman-empire times. I'm far more inclined to believe this over some Mormon nonsense about Jesus and his disciples sipping the ancient form of Welch's grape juice.

Neither did mickey mouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o2JgY6wyus

Are You Drinking with Me, Jesus?

written and performed by Lou and Peter Berryman. They are from Wisconsin, and Deenie the Dreaded Single Adult (whom the real old-timers will remember) was a fan of theirs. (RIP, Deenie)

[I suspect Lou was singing without a monitor and couldn't hear herself, but then it was the content, not the vocal quality that made the Berrymans popular among the folk festival set). The song has been covered by several groups, but this is the original.

Jesus was accused of being a bibber, or drunk. That's a neat trick with Welch's.

Luke 7:34

I remember being told the Grape Juice Lie by my parents, when we had a family scripture study on the eucharistic prayer in Moroni 5, where JS of course used the word "wine" instead of the later "water." Listening to them, you might have thought alcohol was a modern invention.

All this arguing over imaginary characters and events...

Sheesh.

Jesus was also accused of being a glutton and winebibber. I doubt that meant he drank too much grape juice. lol.I dont know about Jewish customs , but the Romans watered down their wine.The master of the feast decided on the percentage. It was considered bad form to drink wine straight although some people did. Of course we dont know how strong the wine was before the water was added.They certainly got drunk at times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2018 05:28PM by bona dea.

Additionally, the guests at the wedding noted that the hosts appeared to have saved the best wine for last instead of the worst...presumably by then they were normally too intoxicated to notice the difference. Unless, of course, there were grades of grape juice.

Good point. Grape juice is pretty much,you know, grape juice.

I guess ancient Jews didn't have a word for fruit juice and so called everything wine. Yeah. Right. Makes sense though I guess since they called all four legged animals horses as we know from Lehi's kin.

Dont know who was that who told your cousin that, but officially, the Mormon church doesnt deny that Jesus drank wine.

All this talk about grape juice turning to wine, etc. If you believe in an all powerful God of miracles than you can't pick and choose. If Jesus/God can do anything and can turn water to wine, than he can make wine that has no alcohol.

Might I suggest that you can't interject reason into the unreasonable. With phantasy anything is possible, even turning water into non alcoholic kool aide.

Why should the question of whether or not Jesus drank alcohol have anything at all to do with decisions people make today about whether or not to drink alcohol? Why look back to someone living some two thousand years ago as a model for dietary behavior?

As opposed to 19th Century Revelators, Seers, Discoverers, Prophets, and Beloved Leaders?

It is relevent because Mormons think drinking is evil and that therefore Jesus, who was perfect, didnt drink. The NT says otherwise.Otherwise, I dont really care what Jesus ate or drank. Mormons made it an issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2018 10:52PM by bona dea.

I was mixing a Mormon leader ("Seer, Revelator, and Prophet" with Christian Science's Mary Baker Eddy, who was and is regarded, similarly, as the "Discoverer," "Revelator," and "Beloved Leader" of God's final and complete revelation to Mankind. Both LDS and Christian Science prohibit their followers from partaking of tobacco and alcohol. "Heated beverages," however, is unique to LDS.

It was an inside joke to another poster, who may or may not have checked back on this thread, and would have gotten it.

I was replying to commongentile who didnt see any reason why we should care what Jesus drank. It appeared below your comment, unfortunately, but was meant for him, not you. Sorry for the confusion.

IN ~ b 4 ~ philippians 1:18 ~

For those who wonder whether or not Jesus actually existed:

Bart Ehrman has the credentials, the honesty, and the training to tackle this subject. It would be a good idea to read his book:
"Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth"

Tell a Jewish Rabbi who knows the scriptures that Jesus' wine didn't have alcohol in it and he will laugh you out of the room.

Maybe Jesus did not drink then, but if he is alive and watching America he sure as hell is drinking now.

HH =)

In the Bible, Jesus drank wine.