Since I presume my last thread will be closed soon, this is sort of to continue that.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2092765

So seriously, has anyone left the church on here without kids in the marriage with a TBM spouse and managed to stay together?

I fear that the majority of couples with one who sees the light divorce unless kids tie them together. Even then, many separate.

A brother of mine, for example. Same boat as me but with a few more years of marriage and a few kids. His DW never even considered divorce, neither did he, because of the kids. They struggled absolutely, to reconcile differences-- as expected. But those kids are a strong binding force....

I'm starting to wonder if those kiddos are a stronger force than, oh, LOVE, and things in common, and great sex -- all of which we still have.

mightybuffalo Wrote:
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> I'm starting to wonder if those kiddos are a
> stronger force than, oh, LOVE, and things in
> common, and great sex -- all of which we still
> have.

MONEY is a stronger force than all of those things, including kids.

To divorce with multiple kids often leaves both partners broke and struggling for many, many years.

Many people recognize this and "stay together for the kids".

You're question is hard to answer. How do you gauge marital happiness? IMHO, its not that kids are a stronger force than all those things you mentioned, it responsibility. Children are the great equalizer of life, you find out what's really important. Look, to be honest, you two got married so you could have sex. I know,I know, your in love. (picture me sticking my finger down my throat right now). You are young and idealistic, I get it, all of us were. So the great debate is ,should someone stay married for the kids? My personal answer is no, I tried it. What would be your opinion now if you were only dating?

About that great sex...I think I'd suggest condoms even if your wife has some sort of birth control regimen. An "unplanned" pregnancy could be just the thing to get you back to the church.

Captain Klutz Wrote:
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> About that great sex...I think I'd suggest condoms
> even if your wife has some sort of birth control
> regimen. An "unplanned" pregnancy could be just
> the thing to get you back to the church.

I do not foresee the mightybuffalo taking your advice. He is too desperate to keep things together.

Sorry, but mightybuffalo, you are ripe for the picking at the moment. You undoubtedly are giving off that desperation vibe and she knows it. It is completely, utterly understandable and I sympathize. But you could get screwed over here. You are asking questions that do not have an answer yet and she looks to be holding most (all?) of the cards.

You put all your eggs in this basket, I get it. But no one should live rent free like this in your mind. Not the church, not your wife, no one. You are a human on this planet with tons of possibilities for your future.

A casualty of indoctrination is that one has a hard time with critical thinking skills. Consider, 'objective findings' in your career path vs. 'subjective findings'. This is a crap shoot with your wife. And if you see 'kids' as 'binding' you are (sorry) misunderstanding parenting.

I know you are afraid and your world seems to be upside down. But you can survive, even if you divorce. I understand that you don't want that and I hope for the best. But your thinking is way off, imo. You cannot make someone stay. Think about it if she were acting like this toward you and you weren't sure about her. It does nothing to twist yourself into a pretzel because the person is going to do what they are going to do.

The good news is you seem able to attach and love another person. That's awesome! Lots of people in the church cannot love. They live in a conditional existence and cannot genuinely connect with another human being.

You have tons of offer and yes, you are a 'great guy' or whatever you called yourself in the other thread. Keep building yourself up and see that this world is huge and way beyond your current situation.

She's got an IUD.

mightybuffalo Wrote:
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> She's got an IUD.

Great! Hopefully one less thing to worry about in this 'Big Deal' you are in.

Still use a condom anyway. IUDs do fail or get removed. Just an FYI. If kiddos are more of an incentive to stay together than love, that's not a relationship I would want to be in. Besides, think of what kind of trauma the children would suffer from such a relationship. Children should never be used as pawns, never.

Agreed. Even with an IUD, use a condom every time. As a future medical school student, you should understand that nothing in medicine is guaranteed.

IUDs can fail, become dislodged, or be removed.

If you don't want kids, and still want to be having sex, make sure you're using a condom every time.

mightybuffalo Wrote:
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> I'm starting to wonder if those kiddos are a
> stronger force than, oh, LOVE,

She doesn't seem to accept you as you are. She wields control out of her own fears that you aren't what you were.

I believe that true love says, 'I love this person, no matter if they stay Mormon, leave Mormon, become the greatest Mormon ever, follow Krishna, convert to Catholicism...' I understand there are huge lifestyle and financial issues regarding being in X religion. Like, if someone leaves their family to join a monastic life, that's devastating.

But what can we do with those with love? We cannot dictate how they should think. We cannot control them, and just like you are experiencing through your wife's rejection, it feels AWFUL to humans when they are judged and rejected for their beliefs. Everyone wants to feel that their intimate relationship is a soft place to fall. You could shift in your beliefs a thousand times during decades of marriage! It's possible! Should that really threaten the relationship every time you have an independent thought? That's not 'LOVE'.

It is possible to be intimately bonded with your spouse and love, love, love them without the need to think exactly the same. The church promotes fusion based on identical thinking and that is a FALSE LOVE.

You can't keep going like this, imo, where your foundation is so shaky. How can you get anything accomplished when you don't know if the rug is going to be pulled out at any moment?

Has she joined the gossip train yet about you? That's the predictable course. Talking about what a loser you are and if you would only be the husband she thought she married. She will find much agreement for her feelings. That's not 'LOVE' either!!

With twelve children, it was a problem that my DW almost left. Entirely apart from this, see if your DW will read The 19th Wife and perhaps Zane Grey's "Riders of the Purple Sage".

Well, as a friend of mine once said, marriage is one thing but having kids is quite another. You'd better make sure that if you have kids she is in it for the long haul. Your wife is in the process of making the same assessment. And as another board member said, wear a condom. Every time. Your wife should be using birth control as well. You don't want to add a child to your difficulties.

I may be jaded but great sex doesn't last forever...how long have you been married??

Some people end up divorcing over this issue, only to get remarried. I think that regardless of age, it is difficult to be a divorced woman in the church, even if you have no children.

Here is a posting from another site. Zadok_The_Priest wrote:

"Yes, this happened to me. I started learning more about the church's truth crisis and after I was pretty convinced the rabbit hole was real and deep, I shared my findings with my TBM wife. She was angry, felt betrayed, went to the bishop for advice.

"Now I need to say here that our relationship was not perfect by any means. We practically never had sex, I was 65 and had just retired, my wife was 63 and working full time. All of our kids were out of the house and on their own. Having no kids around was a struggle for both of us.

"Our beloved business owner bishop said to my wife... "You should divorce Bro. Zadok, and find a righteous priesthood holder who can take you to the celestial kingdom." (He later denied saying that to the Stake President.)

"Interesting aside, there was a former bishop in our Ward who's wife had recently passed away from cancer. My current bishop wanted to set my wife up with the former bishop.

"Anyway our relationship festered for a few weeks when my wife announced she wanted a divorce. We had limited assets, did a do-it-yourself no fault divorce and sold our house and split the sheets.

"About 18 months later my oldest son approached me saying that Mom was lonely and might be receptive to meeting for dinner. We talked and agreed to marry again. Since our temple sealing was never cancelled she thinks we still have an eternal marriage.

"Going forward, I initially agreed to go to Sacrament meeting with my wife, but after a few months she stopped going to church. We haven't been to church now for over two years. Wife claims she is still Mormon, we avoid talking about "issues", I have officially resigned from the church.

"We still argue, we hardly ever have sex, but after 40 years together, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. Right now we live full time in our motorhome and are traveling the country. We never look for a local ward, but have driven by some of the temples in our travels. As I type this, we are in Mesa, AZ and will be coming through Salt Lake City in May on our way to the Pacific Northwest.

Mighty Buff, what do you want in a spouse? What does she want in a spouse. Is there enough overlap (without kids) to build a future lifetime together?

I’m sensing that both of you are digging in n your side, too. If you can’t find enough common ground, agree to divorce as friends.

You’re young enough not to have major assets. If you’re not familiar with this term, explore the concept of divorce “community property.” Even if your state isn’t a defined-CP state, basically she’ll still get half of the property and your retirement. Alimony will be determined by her ability vs. yours in generating income. She’ll be entitled to more alimony the longer the marriage lasts.

Very best wishes, Buff. Boner

My TBM TR married parents stayed married for the sake of the children 21 years. When they finally divorced (should have long before,) us kids were by then teenagers, one tweenie, and a brother on his mission.

Yes, it ripped our family apart. But it wasn't the first time. They'd separated in our early childhood and reconciled a couple go arounds. It was hell when they were together. It wasn't a picnic after they divorced.

To stay in a marriage for the sake of the children was a cop-out for them. Maybe they were more afraid of going solo, I dunno. It was hard on all of us except for the sibling away on a mission. But we were all scarred from a dysfunctional family life - all the years of their love-hate relationship had taken its toll.

The church may have well broke down their marriage. Now that I know what the temple rituals were about, it doesn't surprise me how much more strain was on their marriage after temple trips, and mom's stake calling that separated her for hours on end from her family. My dad at some point even suspected she was having an affair with the stake president because of the amount of time they spent together doing church stuff. I doubt it, but dad wondered.

Dad, with a roving eye of his own stayed faithful during marriage. It was between marriages he was the consummate ladies man.

I've been pondering your story.

I bet your wife doesn't believe in the church.

She is considering the penalty of divorce if you go inactive.

So if that is how members operate, perhaps she only participates to avoid being cut off by family or other ward members.

Run that by her. Ask how her family, church friends would react if she quit going. She might deny that they would cut her off, but tell her she is about to cut you off. Where did she learn that?

Figuratively speaking, everyone in church has a gun pointed at their head. The threat of separation from our social group, which we're wired to view as decreasing our odds of survival.

And that is called free agency?

We aren't really free to choose if we are punished for doing so.

Kids are threatened in primary that, "families can be together forever, through heavenly father's plan".

I.E. if you don't follow the plan, you will be taken away from family. Which to a little kid, completely dependent on family, means death.

What is wrong with the telestial or terrestrial kingdom? In this life, do we look down on those of lesser status? Trailer parks or suburbs are unacceptable - you have to live in a mansion on the hill?

Again, Jesus hated those who sought status and to be "seen of men".

Jesus wouldn't be caught dead in church.

I would discuss this with your wife. If it turns out status is all that matters, forget it.

Church activity isn't the only status issue. My cousin's and nephew's wives left them when they weren't making enough to support the lifestyle they desired, despite being solid church members and leaders.

One more question for your wife.

If she abandons you for lack of faith, will she disown her kids if they go inactive? What is the difference?

It appears that you are looking for perspective on your situation so I will add my two cents. I might add that I have been through a divorce with 4 kids in the mix.

1. You only have any control over yourself and your actions.

2. As long as your wife allows the Morg and her TBM family to interfere in your relationship, YOU WILL BE MISERABLE!!!

3. If you end up staying married and your wife continues her activity in the Morg, the Morg will continually and unceasingly attempt to influence your wife and kids. YOU WILL BE MISERABLE!!

4. The odds that you can live in these MISERABLE conditions are not good.

5. There are no guarantees that your wife will ever leave the Morg.

6. Make a decision on how long you are willing to wait for her to grow up, understand where you are at, understand that the Morg is a silly facade that controls and ruins lives and that she will more than likely have to separate herself from her TBM family for you both to live in peace.

7. Divorce is a thousand times easier without children involved.

8. You can either try giving her an ultimatum (Its either me or your family and the Morg) or try to slow play it. Either way you are delivering the same message to her. My advice to you is communicate the options you are comfortable with and let her make her choice.

Good luck! Its a hard situation and you will need a lot of support to deal with the aftermath which ever way it goes for you.

What a great post, grendel! And also both posts from Free Man!

What do you think, OP?

If you're even talking about this here now. Are yo u in love. Are you amazed by the qualities skills characteristic s of your spouse an d can't wait to see t hgem in Paris or Yosemite as well as at midnight & refuse to leave for the gym before dawn because you'd rather hug them stroke the hair out o f their face instead.

Doesn't that mean your own playfulness joy giddy enthusiastic excitement and charm your exuberance is gone

What solemn serious dragged out misery needs to be in every first years of sex together
When folks are near the kitchen the bed their bath

Oh they must carefully analyze every trajectory possible and microacopically assess castigate critical of their response their spouses response all avoid the further intimacy of allowing someone into further into their own privacy.

By all means push away pull back instead of just making love. It's your marriage. If your rath Dr do extemporaneous calculus instead of hol d each other that's your business. I met someone who hates to be tugged, hated to let th ei r partner touch them. Some people really want their space, others are cuddle ers. But ask yourself as you are waking up intellectually why is this distancing speaking out early while still enrolled at the y, why this risk taking why it must it be now before even graduation given the honor code and this apostate exploration here? Now? Why must it b e talked out with temple married spouse? Is this l ike sip motion academic social dise enchantment taken to another level? Why here why Now? But what makes it so why would you put yourself in p eril *Your u its* what is it about yoiu or within that would ever risk years of units work your future posting here now repeatedly

Yet you post about love marriage life change in a breath less dangerous sa rificial urgency. Yiiu must * urgence* ris k your graduation and future and all colle ge units all loans taken
Now *urgence* now? It must bve now? How sel f destructive is This? Risk taking?that's not imp ressive.risking your success is not impressive. This ta ki g yo ur survival is no t impressive. No martyrdom is impressive. Stop imperiling your future ta living o r typing about leaving thge church about problems with the church while attending b y u.your timing is foolish and self destructive others hav e stated this to you.

Unless your chick was a non wow conformed hiding party and sex violations happily at b y u, I don't understand how they might enjoy alternate lifestyles and open sex play or recreation with you the way a gent ile might, nor that she may be comfortable o r casual with you having fri ends with benefits at work or med school. I don't know how you'll be comfortable or even choose a legal marriage as a life format. Without friendship deep connect I don't understand why ... an d I don't understand saying one loves someone but planning on changing them, it's like not off the shelf anymore his it, you bought a b y u temple marriage off the shelf, know you're breaking yoiurselkf out of the packaging like a juice rolling out of a box.

It's a,lot of ca lculus instead of love dad eo oh old man It be so upset. Where are the moonlight drives why aren't you talking about o_______ and living? Is this just a compulsive type of calculating or triangulating band aiding anxiety about the next big move/ commitment/effort in grad school or career mascarading as a person willing to love or b e in relationship...tried mormon adult app clothes on, your mommy or daddy's cloth es on and didn t like it..got another g a l darn certificate but thi s one com e with a ring. Earn ed it jyyst like hono r roll or interview award in a string of blue ribbons. Just the next obbe to earn, another hoop to jump.

Guess what you're untying th e Mormon knot , ask yourself what life looks,like to you, and if it this relationship really matters? Did you know her for x years or month s b efore going to th e templ e? I wouldn't impose being unloved rejected dissected criticized up on her just because you uncheck ed th e box took off the award and are stepping out of the box .

One guy i adored lik ed to maj e out and hang out with m e he said he loved me i loved him, it shock ed me to become aware get just wanted physical. But at least he di dnt marry me/ thank God for th at...because I believed him when he said i love you.

You figure out what that mneabbs, to you. And wear a condom in addition to her iud. Do her a favor and make a bridge be a bridg e instead of being a sling shot tossing her into space.

Have you no self preservation at all, your lack self preservation instincts or acts smacks of Mormon elder cerebral type. Graduate. First