https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/christianity-non-christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion

Europe’s march towards a post-Christian society has been starkly illustrated by research showing a majority of young people in a dozen countries do not follow a religion.

The survey of 16- to 29-year-olds found the Czech Republic is the least religious country in Europe, with 91% of that age group saying they have no religious affiliation. Between 70% and 80% of young adults in Estonia, Sweden and the Netherlands also categorise themselves as non-religious.

The most religious country is Poland, where 17% of young adults define themselves as non-religious, followed by Lithuania with 25%.

Should have checked with the new immigrants - you can bet their religious feelings are at an all time high.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should have checked with the new immigrants - you
> can bet their religious feelings are at an all
> time high.


Agreed.

Islam is gaining many a convert these days

Who is converting to Islam? All their growth is through birth and immigration. And there are plenty of MINOs in the world.

There aren't many people converting to Islam. But it's getting more converts from white Europeans than any other religion, mainly white women. Still a small number in the grand scheme of things, but if this many people were converting to mormonism in Europe the church would be absolutely delighted, so I don't think it's completely insignificant.

I'm surprised white Europeans could convert to ANY religion in this day and age.

From my own experience (friends and acquaintances), many of the women who convert do so because they have married a muslim. "Stand-alone" conversions seem very rare.

You mean people are finally wising up ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You mean people are finally wising up ?


No, not really. I think they survey is more about Christianity specifically, but not religion over-all.

Islam is fast growing in Europe

Islam is fast growing in Europe, from 1.5 to 2.0 percent. It's easy for a tiny faction to grow fast.

A poster here last year wondered if Spain was still a Catholic country, what with all the Moslems now. According to the Google gods, Spain is just over 2% Moslem, and some of that 2% has been there for centuries.

The Islamification of Europe is wildly exaggerated. Sure, there are neighborhoods that are heavily Islamic. There are neighborhoods near Boston that are heavily LDS. That doesn't mean Mormons are taking over New England.

In two generations, the grandchildren of European Moslems will be about as secular as everyone else in Europe. Most American immigrants a century ago were devoutly Catholic. Now most of their descendants are at best nominally Catholic. Most active US Catholics now are Hispanic. A century from now, they too will be secular.

I watched Quebec go from the most religious province in Canada to the least, in less than 2 generations.

This is exactly right. The Islamophobia that sometimes shows up on this board is unhinged.

Is Islam growing fast in the US? No. There were 11,000 Moslem immigrants to the US last year relative to nearly three million in overall population growth.

Is it growing fast in Europe? Faster than Christianity, yes, since Christianity is shrinking. But is 2% per annum a threat to western civilization? No.

The single most important element of the religious picture in Europe is that religion is going away. All the rest is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

You're wrong. About 25% of London are muslim. About 30% of Birmingham (in 2011 according to Wikipedia it was about 20% of London and 25% of Birmingham).

At the current rate of growth, London will be majority muslim within our lifetime.

It's a complete lie to say the growth of Islam in Europe is insignificant.

I don't like dishonesty, that's why I left the mormon church.

If mormons were making up 25% of London's population, and GROWING fast, I would be terrified and doing everything I can to stop it. Not laughing it off and saying it's "over-exaggerated".

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source. I was in London twice last year and did not feel that every fourth person I met was Muslim. Surely there are more reliable sources for statistics.

London is a MASSIVE city, and it's moderately segregated. For example there are areas with hardly any muslims, and areas where muslims are a majority.

I used to live in a town (not in London) which was about 80% muslim according to Wikipedia, although when living there it seemed about 95% muslim. In the 1960s it was majority white. So this changed happened in about 70 years.

So if I disagree with you, I am being dishonest? I won't apply that standard to you because I don't know your motives.

Oh yes, and for what it is worth the UK census data indicate that Moslems comprise 12.4% of London's population and 14.3% of Birmingham's.

So your claims exaggerate the truth by just over 100%.

A couple of additional observations.

First, I don't know where on Wikipedia you got your information. When I look at "Religion in London" on that site, it refers me to the official census data. The same is true of "Demography of Birmingham."

Second, I should add some nuance to my argument. Islam is definitely not taking over Europe. Statements to that effect are hyperbole. But excessive concentration of any minority in a particular geography poses risks because they tend to become walled off and don't adequately sufficiently (whatever "sufficiently" means).

So yes, places like Birmingham and the Turkish parts of Berlin do pose significant challenges to society and the state. But those are "micro" challenges rather than part of any Islamic conquest of the West.

In Europe and advanced Asia, irreligion is growing faster than any form of religion.

"Don't sufficiently assimilate" is what I meant to type.

I don't think muslims are intentionally trying to take over Europe. So I agree on you with that.

But lots of muslims are moving to Europe, and they are having a lot more children than the natives. And another important thing is that they have children YOUNGER. Muslim women often start having children in their early 20s. Atheist women often have a child in their mid-30s. So not only are the muslim women having more children, but a muslim woman can be getting great-grandchildren at the same time as an atheist woman of the same age is getting her grandchild.

Get a piece of paper. Draw a scale of 1 to 100 done the side (representing years). Draw two women at the top, one atheist, one muslim. Draw the atheist woman recreating herself 1.5 times every 35 years, and draw the muslim woman recreating herself 3.5 times every 25 years. See what happens after 100 years.

I don't think anybody is trying to take over the West. But in effect that's what is going to happen. Young muslims just aren't deconverting in large numbers like we are seeing in Christians and mormons.

Yes, I am familiar with the fertility data. Where we disagree is on the notion that "current trends continue." Any statistician will tell you that current trends never continue for decades, let alone a century. If you looked at Irish or Italian or Chinese fertility rates 100 years ago and predicted those to today, you'd have a surreal picture of any of those countries or the countries to which they immigrated.

Two of the most important demographic facts are that fertility rates decline if you increase wealth and if you increase women's education. So if Moslems immigrate to Europe, it's only a matter of time before their fertility rates level off and eventually fall. Empirically that happens within a decade or two.

That does not mean there are not significant problems with places that have become too Islamified, such as Birmingham (we agree there, also regarding certain boroughs in London, parts of France, parts of Germany). But it does mean that Islam is not going to overwhelm traditional Europe and that stories to that effect are overwrought.

And you are right: I really wouldn't mind if Moslems came to represent 10% of any city or country I lived in. What would such a city look like?

Almost as Moslem as today's Los Angeles.

No. You are being dishonest when you state things which aren't true as a fact.

No. 21.8% of Birmingham in 2011 were Muslim.

I over-estimated a bit, but I don't have a clue where you got that 14.3% figure from?!?

About London, I meant Inner London, not Greater London. My apologies, I should have specified.

However, even if your "low" figures for Birmingham and London were true, that's still extremely high. And that's not even the problem, the problem is that the religion is growing so fast! If it was in decline like Christianity I wouldn't be so concerned. But on current trends, Islam will be the majority in Birmingham and London within our lifetimes.

You clearly would be fine with 10% of your country being muslim one day. Fine, just be honest about it. Don't pretend on the one hand you want everybody to be an atheist and then say the growth of Islam should just be ignored because it doesn't matter. Just admit you don't mind Islam growing in number. Any normal atheist would be upset at a "new" religion growing to over 10% of the population in a number of major cities in Europe.

It is strange that you would accuse me of lying or of dishonesty. If someone states a proposition that is false, there are two possible interpretations: 1) he is intentionally stating a falsehood, in which case he is lying; or 2) she is unaware she is saying something inaccurate, in which case she is making a mistake. Since you don't know my intentions, you can't reasonably accuse me of dishonesty.

Likewise, you ascribe characteristics to me that are incorrect. I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic, confident that I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Moreover I don't care if people are religious or irrelegious, Moslem or Christian. I do care about having stable, diverse communities--which means I favor generous immigration policies but understand the dangers of effective segregation when assimilation doesn't work. But within that framework I think people should adhere to whatever ideological conviction they want as long as it does not harm others.

Finally, why do you ask where I got my data? In my last post I said that I got mine from the 2011 national census. Now that I look it up, I can see where you got yours--Birmingham City Council.

So our sources are incompatible. Which is more credible? I don't know the answer, although there is at least one glaring inaccuracy in your source: it says, "The largest ethnic group in Birmingham is White British (53.1%). This is . . . lower than the 17.8% average in England."

Obviously 53% is NOT lower than 18%; and the proportion of white British people in England is obviously vastly higher than 18%. That the Birmingham City Council would make such obvious mistatements raises the odds that it has the data on Moslems wrong too. So I will tentatively stick with my source.

Tentatively.

Being the fastest growing religion in the world (as has been trumpeted in our publication the past several generations) that is like a stone filling the whole road, we're going to get New England well assimilated into Mormonism. When they see the Church being so super honest/transparent the people will flock in droves to the Church. Right now the Church seems to be doing a lot of consolidating (doesn't that mean growth) of Stakes and Missions which I guess means they are growing. I'd look into this matter more but as you know I'm just needing to be so super busy obeying the beloved middleman leaders of the Church at the local level, such as all the glorious chapel toilet cleaning assignments, so don't have time to look into this. Besides, I've been well-indoctrinated that I should only spend my time studying what the Correlation program schedules & there are higher priorities on the agenda. For example, I think we're going to have some lessons on Sacrifice for the Church and Obedience to Leaders as I guess these are topics that just haven't been covered enough yet.

I meant "filling the whole world" :)

Gotta run and get some stuff done. I've got lots of ancestors born in the 16th century whose temple work still hasn't been done so they are rotting away in their Spirit Prison cells and its all my fault & the piles of guilt on my soul are beyond imagination. If this never ending feeling of feeling guilty is supposed to be a life of so much greater joy than those pesky apostates have in theirs then I can only imagine how guilt-ridden those pesky apostates must be in their every day lives so you RfM'ers have my pity.

I'd think about this more. But then I remember that thinking can sometimes cause doubting (which is a very dangerous sin) so instead of thinking I guess that I'll be obeying and working super hard to build up the beloved Church.

And that's one of the reasons why I love the EU.

Culture, like nature, abhors a vacuum.

Yes, and secular humanism is filling the vacuum.

... and harassment of religious people by the state between 1945 & 1989.

Nothing to do with the fact if you wanted to get a promotion in the old Czechoslovakia, you needed to be a Communist and overtly godless.

Nothing to do with confiscating religious properties by force.

Nothing to do with religious leaders being deliberately demeaned or even being sent to the Gulag in the 1950s...

My family came from the Czech Republic. I go there every summer and I enjoy the huuuuge difference in cultures.