https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/these-countries-have-the-highest-threat-levels/ss-AAvnfdS?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout#image=1

I check my email and after logging out see the above linked and click on it wondering if my child's mission destination is one of these places.

No surprise. I already knew. It is.

I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I've warned my family. I've let them know.

Isn't it apropos. Other than my wife, no one seems concerned. Especially not my daughter. The Lord with bless, protect, and keep her.

I feel so disconnected from this process of sending my kid into harm's way. Why are missionaries even IN places like these? If it is on this list, don't send them!!!! Seems logical, rational, and sane to me. But religion just isn't sane. Especially the Mormon kind. They aren't just going to help the people. They are expressly, explicitly, and purposefully sending children into dangerous countries to convert people. That is their "mission."

You raise a child only to send them in the bloom of youth to a place where they could easily be harmed and/or killed. This is ok???

Thanks for reading. I find it highly ironic that MY child. The one kid from the apostate gets to go foreign (on my wife's side and almost all my kin go foreign for some reason) and into one of these most dangerous places on the planet.

Murphy is a Moron, um, Mormon.

To quote James T. Kirk, "May fortune favor the foolish"

Hoping your daughter comes through unscathed.

Thanks.

Before she leaves.....

Get a notarized copy of her passport.

Hand her a laminated card with the phone number and address of the U.S. Embassy and Consolates. Tell her to call if she's in danger or just wants to come home.

Have a passport for yourself. Just in case.

Read the scriptures about the temptation of Jesus with her. Emphasize that Jesus himself did not jump off the temple, but said "thou shalt not tempt the lord thy god". Tell her she needs to be aware of her surroundings and not tempt gad by doing foolish or unsafe things thinking he'll save her.



.

I'd suggest that your daughter immediately start taking some self-defense classes, like Krav Maga. It could help her in the case of a scary situation. She might also want to improve her physical strength.

Even at the time when I had a son and thought maybe he'd serve a mission, I wanted him stateside. BUT then I started telling him he wasn't going EVER no matter what at age 2.

Read what I just posted about my daughter and how she was not afraid of anything for a while here in Cache Valley until someone followed her home after midnight. She was going to her apartment, but changed her mind and came here, which is 8 miles form her apartment, but she knew she'd be safe running in here compared to how she had to get in her apartment. She has never been the same since. She carries mace (is that the spelling?).

I like what someone else said about getting a copy of he passport, make sure you have one.

They don't give a damn about the children. My neighbor's child is in Mexico somewhere. DAughter. All her kids went overseas. her first daughter went to Norway, which I think would be great, BUT when they happened to lose her passport, she wasn't able to leave the day of the other people going to Norway, so they sent her with 2 male missionaries to England or Europe, and then sent her the rest of the way on her own. Oh, she'd be fine. She'd never traveled very far before. This mother was furious, but her third missionary is out now.

Notarized letter to the church, copying in the link to the site above, with a note that if anything happens to your daughter they will be facing a very large civil suit for endangerment.

-tig

I like this idea!

How can the church fail to see the dreadful risks they are taking with the lives of innocent, gullible young people? They should be held 100% accountable. The trouble with that is, something awful has to happen first, and then there are layers and layers of legal proceedings. And I'm sure that the church has plenty of attorneys who specialize in CYA tactics.

I'll be interested in seeing the response to Dave's question.

It is absolutely preposterous that a "church" would send young people directly into harms way - ESPECIALLY YOUNG WOMEN. I cannot think of another more asinine thing TSCC does (and there are many to choose from) then to send pretty young women into harms way. It is not as dangerous for the young men - but young women are preyed upon as soon as they are seen. Evil doing men in bad areas of the world immediately start eyeing these girls - and the risk of things going ary increase exponentially. Don't let her go to a bad place...seriously put up a fight. It's not worth it.

I hope she's not going to Nicaragua or Argentina. I have a nephew going to India, but I think it will be one of the better places he could go foreign. It will be an adventure. Bangaluru is in the Southern end of India and is a tech center. I'm pretty excited for him.

Indians are NOT welcoming to proselytizing. It will be great if he is interested in the culture, but otherwise it is going to he hellacious

tig Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indians are NOT welcoming to proselytizing. It
> will be great if he is interested in the culture,
> but otherwise it is going to he hellacious

I agree with this...Indians (from India) would likely be among the least receptive converts to Mormonism on the planet.

He could, however, learn a great deal while he is there (if he wants to learn).

If his sincere inner purpose is wanting to convert others to LDS, his experience on this level is likely to be dismal.

I feel for you. i would be terrified if my child were going on a mission, period, but especially so if it were to one of the places for which there is a travel advisory.

C12 is absolutely right that they don't care about our children. They do not care about anyone's kids other than their own and possibly each other's.

So, so abusive. So wrong. So needless. So sorry this is still going on in the MormonCult and happening to your loved one.

Seems like I myself have been fighting this battle of the abusive LDS youth mission practices for at least a hundred years, when in reality it has been 30-35.

First, it happened to some of my own children and now it is some BIC grandkids. I can relate to how helpless the whole hellish situation makes you feel.

Give these sweet naive ones the facts of what they are getting into, tell them you are there for them always, and write them tons of fun non-church stuff.....these are my suggestions. May the force be with you and yours through this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 03:04PM by presleynfactsrock.

It isn't too late to change her mind.

You could still use your parental influence (and your wife,) to dissuade her. She can still say "No," she isn't going after all.

The cult is responsible and complicit - but she has lots of enablers coming from relatives. She is brainwashed. How do you convince someone when they're blinded?

You can still try to talk her out of it, if at all possible. I would if it were my child. I wouldn't feel right about sending her into harms way at all.

Depending on the place she is actually sent to (because some specific places, even in overall dangerous areas, are usually safer than others), she can have no idea what she is getting into until a few weeks after she arrives and she begins to "get wise."

(I study meticulously before I make this kind of trip, and as a result, I majorly changed my itinerary in Colombia to conform to local realities there, and I STILL have been in imminent danger of losing my life...once because of pure, innocent naivete, and once because the local street maps were wildly NOT representative of local, on-the-ground, realities.)

And I have never been in a war zone.

If this were me, I would be really concerned. Depending on the country and what is actually going on there, things could turn very bad in a seeming instant.

(I would undoubtedly not feel so vehement if "this" hadn't happened to me...but it DID happen to me...and therefore I AM biased re: these kinds of situations where Americans innocently enter into places where they really are not prepared for the realities which exist in that place and at that time.)

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (I would undoubtedly not feel so vehement if
> "this" hadn't happened to me...but it DID happen
> to me...and therefore I AM biased re: these kinds
> of situations where Americans innocently enter
> into places where they really are not prepared for
> the realities which exist in that place and at
> that time.)

That is the definition of a mission except it is Mormons innocently entering these places. More clueless than seasoned travelers.

For me, nothing--especially not my relationships with Mormon relatives, not my reputation for being nice, that I would willingly sacrifice--nothing would make me stop trying to prevent my child from going on a mission!

I have money, and would use it, to protect the life of a loved one. Bribe her with anything she wants--a car, a year or more of college and dorm-life at any university she can get into, the job of her dreams. How about having her TRAVEL and really see interesting parts of the world, safely, with tour groups. Get her a horse--I wouldn't care what it is.

Let people accuse you of bribery, manipulation, being a control-freak, being on the side of Satan. Don't let the Mormons scare you into giving up.

Show your daughter that you are not afraid of Mormons, and that they have no "authority" over you or her or anyone else. Tell her the horror stories you have heard here on RFM.

Good point, that God will not be tempted! She needs to understand this.

My cousin's daughter was sent on a mission to a horrible area of San Diego. I was worried about her, and went to visit her, and was so frightened, that I didn't go back. She became seriously ill with "a parasite" and bed-bug bites, and my cousin, an MD, drove down and brought her home. A few months later, TSCC closed that mission down. My cousin was later made a mission president, so the cult didn't hold this against him, at all.

Good luck! I feel for you!

I'm terribly sorry. I know it must be difficult for you.

One of the hardest things for young women to learn is to have 360 degree awareness around them whenever they step out the door in a dicey locale. This is something that can and should be practiced. Someone could walk with her and say, "okay, Who is walking behind you right now? How far behind you is he? Describe that person. Listen to his footsteps. Is he keeping pace, speeding up, or slowing down? Who is standing in that doorway? etc. She should be taught to always go different routes and make her walk unpredictable. Someone should discuss, when should she turn directly toward the person, when should she should stop and look in a shop window, letting the person pass, and when should she avoid someone altogether.

Something like "The Gift of Fear" might be a useful resource for her.

https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Survival-Signals-Violence/dp/0440226198

That book looks really good. I think I'm going to buy it for myself. Being a single mom with a beautiful young daughter, it would be invaluable to know how to watch for danger and steer clear of dangerous situations.

It is a great book I've been trying to get my kids to read. They are either older teens or my oldest just out of them. They don't want to read it. They probably think that they are immortal. Wait. They do.

I still think that I'll be immortal or die trying.

I hear you. I a so so sad your precious one is being misled into danger and wonder if you can get an embassy pass of some sort? and have a backup passport for her (since the mission president takes hers and she cannot exist in independence or safe passage away when its too desperate.) Find out if its legal to get a duplicate and make a duplicate. Like give her one passport for the mission president and one extra for her? or put one in a bank deposit box in the area she is serving so she can access it with cash for safety tell her. Explain the issue with kid napping and drug dealers and tough neighborhoods then set up her escape route plan B.

I really would talk to an expert and establish this safety net for her since she is expecting to stay in the dangerous place for over a year. I had a horrible summer when my kid who exited Mormon land and had her self baptized somewhere else her senior year sent herself to teen mission international Nicaragua puppet show troupe and building a town water supply doing work after touring cocaine fields giving religious puppet shows. No you canm't make stuff like this up its true. She came home with a machete. Now how can you arrange greater safety for your beloved child?

Money. and then what else?

I served in the Dominican Republic. I was mugged, had a boulder thrown at me that barely missed my head, had an anti-American riot outside of the chapel I was living at, and received numerous death and physical threats. One Elder was mugged and shot in the chest. The bullet barely missed his heart and he survived, but had to be sent home.

I'm not trying to scare you, but if your daughter is going to a third world country, there is a lot of lawlessness and violence. Being a female brings on the extra risk of sexual assault and sexual harassment. My wife served in Italy and a man tried to rape her and she endured daily sexual harassment from the local men. I'm not trying to scare you, but I think it's insane when the morg puts female missionaries in harms way. I hope she'll be safe.

I'd worry too about his daughter getting sexually assaulted in a dangerous land.

Besides terrorism and other extreme acts against Americans elsewhere, there is that of a young woman being sent out to make house calls for god's sake, and meet with investigators. So she has a companion. They are both female, young, naive, and yes, foolish to risk their lives for a cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2018 06:23PM by Amyjo.

I know that one of my nephews was called to one of those countries on your list EB, El Salvador.

He wasn't allowed to go at the time because the church decided it would be too dangerous for him. So he was sent stateside instead to Sin City where he spent out the remainder of his two years after the MTC.

If I were you you have to do SOMETHING. Doing nothing is unacceptable to running interference for your daughter.

Who is paying for the mission ?

I am supporting my wife who is supporting our kids in college/missions. We are not saving much for our retirement. It is all about the children.

Who can afford to do that when you have children?

My children were/are/have been my investment in the future. If I didn't have jobs that had funded pensions I wouldn't have any savings for retirement. That's been it. The one 401k I had some years ago dwindled by 2/3 with the stock market crash of 2008..

By time I liquidated that after ending my employment, it had barely recuped what was lost in the interim.

My children took everything I had to raise them. Thank God they were able to get through college, and I helped them there too. It was tough, and yet those were the best years of my life!

As for a mission though, I would not encourage them to do that. We educated ourselves together as to the cult while they were growing up. When we left TSCC, we left as a family.

No one, especially a female should be sent to any country on that list, maybe parts of Russia, but the way things are going now, don’t know.
The other countries on the list are no kidding war zones or any moment war zones. Trained military get killed in those countries.
There’s a very good chance of being kidnapped and held hostage too, no Kidding.
Like Dave asked, who’s paying? I know the elite get Norway, Switzerland, Austria,etc

Sadly, yet another example of tscc being willing to be a Wedge between family members.

No Shame, No Responsibility for church leaders, but a parade of victims with broken hearts & sometimes broken lives behind them...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2018 01:53AM by GNPE.

I empathize...

As I've posted before, my daughter stayed in Canada. She was born and raised in Great Lakes area, moved with my ex to Western Canada, and thank the heavens above... Was sent to Easter Canada.

My biggest stress, fear, anxiety, worry was where she could have gone.

If she was sent to a third world country.... I would have been stressed for 18 months on top of the wait.

I don't know what to say to calm you. The cult is dangerous, causes stress and anxiety.

But still, she is blowing all the money she saved on a mission, rather than post secondary. She will only marry another TBM. She will most likely forgo a career in order to reproduce on her temple wedding night.

And of course, you are the heathen, to be looked down upon.

Sigh. As long as the cult gets away with things, they will continue to take advantage, and control.

Narcissistic cult leaders do what they want.

Not sure what to say. I lucked out.

My Pop woulda said, “Over my good goddamn dead body!”

I couldn't have in good conscience encouraged my children to go on missions. To me they are tantamount to door-to-door salespeople.

Who would wish that on their children for a two year stint anywhere?! Let alone a dangerous country.

Seriously, if I were Elder Berry, I'd be trying to run interference for my children if that's where they're sending his daughter. I know my nephew's mission was put on hold to El Salvador because of the danger zone he'd have been going into. He was re-assigned to Vegas instead. Was that because my very TBM brother or his wife got involved? I dunno, but if it were my child I'd have been all over that.

I personally know two families whose kids were killed/murdered on their missions. One victim was Gary Darley from Happy Valley, CA. The Darleys identified him by his wrist watch.

Let’s talk about my screwball in laws who sent their voluptuous blond daughter to Equador. On a bus in the dark with other missionaries, she woke up with a gun to her temple.
Four masked men robbed em all —-except my inlaw kid! She had stowed her backpack in the cargo area.

Ok, here’s the kicker: Inlaw parents were thanking God!! Thanking God in Heaven!! that those gunmen didn’t get their daughter’s backpack!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2018 07:20PM by kathleen.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally know two families whose kids were
> killed/murdered on their missions. One victim was
> Gary Darley from Happy Valley, CA. The Darleys
> identified him by his wrist watch.
>
> Let’s talk about my screwball in laws who sent
> their voluptuous blond daughter to Equador. On a
> bus in the dark with other missionaries, she woke
> up with a gun to her temple.
> Four masked men robbed em all —-except my inlaw
> kid! She had stowed her backpack in the cargo
> area.
>
> Ok, here’s the kicker: Inlaw parents were
> thanking God!! Thanking God in Heaven!! that those
> gunmen didn’t get their daughter’s
> backpack!!!!


Speaking of Gary Darley, I am currently reading "Evil Among Us: The Texas Mormon Missionary Murders" by Ken Driggs. For those that might not be aware of this horrible crime, Darley's companion, Mark Fischer was also murdered by Robert Kleasen. Tragic that Kleasen's murder conviction was overturned. He was on Texas'death row.

Overturned?????

What allowed it to be overturned?

How terrible!

Elder Berry,

I'm so harsh today. I'm sorry. This is so upsetting. One of my sons was called to the Paris mission. We drove him from west coast to Provo MTC.

Drove home.

He had beat us back home.

There's hope.

Love your posts all the time. Take care.

Same here. I just don't know how any parent can keep calm under these circumstances.

Why isn't there an "object" option for parents who harbor grave reservations? Because the cult doesn't care for our children like we do.

Your son beat you back home from the MTC? Good for him!

Yes, they actually bought him a plane ticket directly to our city. He’d have chewed his leg off to get out of there!

:D

Thanks. My wife is involved in this as well. I'm trying not to be more of the outsider bad guy than I'm going to be. I've had several talks with her. She is bound and determined. At this point it is shoring up what's her resolve and where the wiggle room is. My inlaws, whom I usually like, are horrible. They are all about the excitement of their first foreign and female granddaughter missionary. Grrrr.

My 19yo DD just got back from Korea. She is in military intelligence.
I was freaking out when she left, given the fact we are in middle of a slo-mo Cuban Missle Crisis with NK.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My 19yo DD just got back from Korea. She is in
> military intelligence.
> I was freaking out when she left, given the fact
> we are in middle of a slo-mo Cuban Missle Crisis
> with NK.

I would be freaking out too, koriwhore.

I am glad your daughter is safe and home with you.

:)

You are right to be concerned. I'd probably be hysterical. I know that people say you should let grown children make their own mistakes but this is different. She didn't really make the decision to go to this mission. The decision was made for her by a heartless corporation.

In your shoes I'd force LDS,Inc. to give me something in writing saying that the full force of the Corporation of the President will be there to support your daughter in the case of any legal or medical problems. Even if she is guilty of something and gets sent to jail, which is very common for U.S. citizens traveling in third world countries when they make the slightest misstep. Does your daughter know the story of Otto Warmbier?

But the best solution would be to talk her out of going or get the ward, stake, or higher church leadership to change her mission assignment. I cannot tell you how many RM's I've met who came back from S.America with diseases they will never recover from. I'm sorry to scare you Elder Berry but this is one topic I feel very strong about. Do whatever you need to do to keep your daughter safe. She'll always be your little girl and when she has kids of her own, she will one day understand.

Elder Berry,
I always enjoy your postings on this board. Your concern is universally understood among the respondents so far. Let me tell you what I did when one of my offspring was preparing to go on a mission:

I wrote a letter to the bishop & stake president that said, in effect, my offspring had better be assigned to a United States mission, or I would not allow them to go. Simple as that. The bishop just shrugged, and the SP called me in for a discussion, but I wouldn't budge...either the afossil in SLC gets a "revelation" that my offspring serves on U.S. soil, or they aren't going! The SP said he would forward that info up to SLC, but, ultimately, it was up to an afossil to make that call. "No problem," I said, but mark my words: "...if the call isn't in the U.S., they aren't going."

The call was to a U.S. mission. And my offspring was back home before 6 months was up...couldn't take the harassment of the MP and the zone leaders, etc...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2018 03:33PM by edzachery.

Thanks. I wish I could have done this knowing now they would be sent to a place the US Gov says stay away from...

It's still not too late.

Who's rules are these, anyway? A hoax cult.

How do they select missionaries for certain missions? Arbitrarily, by computer.

This has nothing to do with God. Why are you worried about breaking rules and defying "authority", when they are not real.

Does your wife know that God has nothing to do with missionaries, or with protecting missionaries?

My friend went directly to Apostle Haight, and told him that if her son was not called to France, she was not going to send him on a mission. Same thing as EdZachery's son--this boy was called to France, the mission he wanted. Did God direct those decisions?

I would choose my child over a spouse and her horrible in-laws.

I like the idea of offering her the money to travel with tour groups, to interesting and safe countries. There are great study-abroad programs. Is she interested in getting a higher education? Have the attitude of giving her more, enhancing her life. Don't focus on taking something away from her, or "forbidding" her to do something--this doesn't work with kids, or with wives, either.

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. It is going to be a rough 18 months starting in June.

I'm going to do what I can without alienating my children, inlaws, wife, in other words my entire support structure. I'm already self-banished from my own hugely dysfunctional family and the trauma/drama they cause in my life if I were to connect again.

Non-Jerk Mormons are unintentionally callous when it comes to trials of their faith. They are completely deluded in so much including terrible decisions about safety of people and such. I've dealt with this faith blind crap my whole life. Luckily, my wife isn't completely down with this mission call. I'm doing what I can in that direction.

My daughter is a very independent and head strong young woman. She was raised with critical thinking skills, drive, and freedom to cultivate an independent spirit. These things are working against me now.

Thanks LDS Inc.!

F- the inlaws on this one, EB! You need to do what you think is best even if they don't agree. They will get over it.

Perhaps you can arrange to get the assignment changed but have it look like the church did it for some obscure reason on their part?

One thing that got through to me when I was in my young and reckless phase (all young people think they are immortal) is my brother emphasizing how important my continued existence was to *him.* Young people are not good at assessing risk, but he got me to think about the concept of risk more clearly, that it was okay to take reasonable precautions, to say, "no" or "only this much," or to decline something altogether.

Just let her know that her MP is not going to be on the ground with her, that she is a volunteer, and it is not only okay but also prudent for her to use her own judgment about things and to set limits. Tell her that it is very important to you that she comes home safely and feeling well, and that she can contact you at any time if she feels unsafe, or wishes to leave, or that her needs are not being met.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just let her know that her MP is not going to be
> on the ground with her, that she is a volunteer,
> and it is not only okay but also prudent for her
> to use her own judgment about things and to set
> limits. Tell her that it is very important to you
> that she comes home safely and feeling well, and
> that she can contact you at any time if she feels
> unsafe, or wishes to leave, or that her needs are
> not being met.

Sage advice. I will. Thanks.

I lived near a LDS family when I was about 20 whose own daughter was going on a mission to Spain. She was their youngest daughter, and they were elderly parents living in a mobile home when she left.

Six months later she had an emotional breakdown overseas, and had to return home.

I never saw her after that. Don't know why she just disappeared from view. But she stopped going to church or living at home with her parents. It wasn't like she was self-supporting yet, so still wonder what exactly happened to her. Maybe she moved away to live with relatives or went to college. It was all kept very hush hush.

If anyone knew anything they weren't talking. It was almost like they were embarrassed by the whole thing. Or worse, they were ashamed that their faith didn't make their daughter "whole."

I can understand parents fears about most of the countries mentioned,but really,Turkey,hundreds of thousands British people holiday there every year without any incident.

Vacations with five star hotels, reserved beaches, air conditioned tour buses, and museums are a far cry from the missionary digs and tracting neighborhoods missionaries are expected to frequent. You have already forgotten the American lady who went to Turkey last year by herself when her companion dropped out of the trip at the last minute? They haven't heard from her since.

If my parents had seen the neighborhoods where our missionary apartments were I think they would have flown to Europe and dragged me home. And some of the apartment complexes where we went door to door were pretty scary. Of course, we knew the Lord was protecting us...NOT! My companion got robbed while riding her bike. A couple of sister missionaries were shot at and quite a few sisters and elders had their bikes stolen. And this was one of the supposedly safe countries.

Mormonism has never been sane. They are known for being crazier than a nut house in nut house circles. It's rich old guys in italian suits sending young brainwashed salespeople (kids) to throw their lives away literally for a small chance to get more revenue. They are literally standing on a mountain of dead people just for paper. It's f#cked, there is no gospel and if there is a gospel it sure as hell isn't secret handshakes and code words.

I just remembered...

... two girls sent to Kosovo in 2014 who were bludgeoned nearly to death by six Muslim men, thrown down stairs, God knows what all, and left for dead. Does anyone remember that?

Don't hear anything about that do you? If you think a couple of 19-year-old American girls got prompt hospitalization, think again.

Another bad memory: our son (not the one who beat us home from MTC) was called to Nebraska. Sounds innocuous, doesn't it? He told me and Dad that if we knew where he ended up, we'd have come and gotten him. I'm not talking about *poor* areas.

He left as a cheerful kid and came home a sullen and distant man.
His brother asked if we thought he got butt raped (his words) or something. We don't know. HE WON'T TALK!!!!

It's my fault! I nagged him to get his papers in. He didn't want to go.

Oh, Jesus!

It's no better than for my brother--sent to a ridiculous war in Vietnam and came home with Agent Orange poisoning. For what? He spent over 500 days in a hospital. Those girls in Kosovo barely got a minute in a hospital. Who even knows if they are still alive?

It's not worth keeping the peace with your wife and inlaws--tell THEM to go!

Correction: 2013

Kathleen nli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not worth keeping the peace with your wife
> and inlaws--tell THEM to go!

She is older than most female missionaries. She is bound and determined to go. I risk my relationship with her. I've talked to her on and on about the danger and risks. I'm going to talk to her more.

Stop her at the airport. Lay down in front of her and tell her "over my dead body" you're going.

Be a drama king. Court your daughter like she's Cleopatra.

Let her know in no uncertain terms you love her too much to send her into harm's way. (Only half-joking here. As a parent I couldn't allow this to happen if I had any say in the matter.)