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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 14, 2018 02:42PM

One of the most essential factors in control is to be able to manipulate focus.

When members question, when members start to use their own reason, or want troubling facts explained, the leaders do not explain or defend. They redirect the members attention where they want it. And that is to the importance of having a testimony and having faith. The testimony/faith is placed on the highest of pedestals and valued as the most paramount of prizes above all else. Certainly above integrity and autonomy.

Testimonies and faith are extremely useful tools in control because they have no substance and so cannot be questioned in and of themselves. They do not require proof, fact, or evidence. In fact the main requirement in sustaining testimonies and faith is to dismiss the relevance of evidence, reason, and any unsettling facts that may arise.

Even as missionaries we were counseled to "answer the question the investigator should have asked, not the question they actually asked." This is called re-directing their focus back to where you control the conversation and do not have to justify, explain, or defend the inexplicable, unjustifiable, or indefensible.

And the answer to the question they should have asked was always, "Faith and Testimony." Keep your eye on the ball, Brothers and Sisters.

Which explains why lately the Mormon catch phrases I hear are, "Choose to Believe," "Fight for Your Testimony," and "Share Your Testimony." The last one being a play on the old BKP exhortation that a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.

I guess you use the tools you have and that is about all the Gerontocracy has these days.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 14, 2018 02:49PM

Phrases of desperation.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 14, 2018 06:22PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the most essential factors in control is to
> be able to manipulate focus.
>
> When members question, when members start to use
> their own reason, or want troubling facts
> explained, the leaders do not explain or defend.
> They redirect the members attention where they
> want it. And that is to the importance of having a
> testimony and having faith. The testimony/faith is
> placed on the highest of pedestals and valued as
> the most paramount of prizes above all else.
> Certainly above integrity and autonomy.
>
> Testimonies and faith are extremely useful tools
> in control because they have no substance and so
> cannot be questioned in and of themselves. They do
> not require proof, fact, or evidence. In fact the
> main requirement in sustaining testimonies and
> faith is to dismiss the relevance of evidence,
> reason, and any unsettling facts that may arise.

.....you mean just like this utterly despicable attempt to derail inspection and inquisitions of the Book of MORmON ??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ToPJZnFUjw

Remember! this is not just Ballard's personal response/ version of things/ DODGE to the matter. This is offered as LD$ Inc's official all around pat response to the matter of there NOT being any scientific validation of ABSURD Book of MORmON claims. Which also means that every one of LD$ Inc's leaders have endorsed this utterly pathetic concocted message intended to serve as a DODGE and MISDIRECTION and DEFLECTION on the matter.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 16, 2018 10:31AM

Thank you for that video. That is a prime example of what works so well on my family. They would get lumps in their throat watching that and increase the power of their testimonies ten fold.

Meanwhile for many of us, it is just so strange to watch that now knowing it is nothing more than an expert "dodge."

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Posted by: Zeezromp ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 02:01PM

Just watched Ballard on the video.

I never asked or needed to see any Gold Plates. I read the book of Mormon as Ballard suggests and knew it was a fraud by reading it.

No one needs to see the Gold Plates, the book reveals it's a fraud and stupidity for itself.


Ballard conveniently ignores the fact that his direct door to door cult competitors reside in New York and call themselves The Anointed Faithfull and Discreet Slave (personally chosen by Christ in 1919 and given exclusivity to restore truth), who run The Watchtower Fraud for those gullible enough to become JW's. lol

That's just one of many cult competitors in the market place for suckers.

Just listening to Ballard for two minutes is nauseating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2018 02:03PM by Zeezromp.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 05:52PM

You made me realize not only do I not need to see the gold plates, but I would still know Mormonism is a lot of "hooey" even if the gold plates were laid right smack dab in front of me.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 14, 2018 08:11PM

One thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately is that there is what you believe and then there is fact. Sometimes the two coincide, and sometimes not.

A lot of what people accept on faith, such as the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus, the existence of an afterlife, the possibility of reincarnation, etc. can not be proven one way or the other. We may have beliefs about any or all of those, but the facts are what they are -- and they may or may not match our beliefs.

So I can believe whatever I want to, but in the end, it won't matter. What is, is. What will be, will be.

Religions extract a price for their believers, and religions also confer certain benefits -- oftentimes comfort, support, community, and culture.

Mormonism extracts a very high price for its believers. This is not a "come as you are" faith. TBMs are banking on the fact that their beliefs will match up with what is true. That is a very big bet to make given the price that is paid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2018 08:11PM by summer.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: April 14, 2018 08:18PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Even as missionaries we were counseled to "answer
> the question the investigator should have asked,
> not the question they actually asked." This is
> called re-directing their focus back to where you
> control the conversation and do not have to
> justify, explain, or defend the inexplicable,
> unjustifiable, or indefensible.


In his book, Teach Ye Diligently, Boyd Packard expounded on this saying it was the best way for gospel teachers to teach and for members to fend off pesky questions about the church. A Boner’s Testimony.

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: April 16, 2018 10:36AM

Guess what I've discovered the last decade or so? The things you really believe in your heart are not things you have to fight to believe. They're not things that are so elusive that a little devilish "still small voice" can put a dent in your belief. The reason you have to fight for a mormon testimony is because it was never really vetted. It isn't solid, it isn't something you know you truly believe. Because it's just something you want to believe. So you fight for what you want.

When you really believe something in your heart, the fight is over and the peace sets in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2018 01:51PM by NormaRae.

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Posted by: Elder What's-his-face ( )
Date: April 16, 2018 02:05PM

They don't want you to fight for your testimony, they want you to fight for their testimony.

Basically, every Mormon knows that their testimony needs explaining. Each and every one knows that this item or that item requires a shelf to put that item upon and trust in the hope that someday it will all be explained. The average Mormon has a shelf sagging under enough weight of evidences and questions that the loss of a trusted supporter puts their shelf and their eternal family in jeopardy.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: April 16, 2018 02:16PM

I only bore my testimony under duress. I only gave the prayer in public under duress. I always felt my beliefs were personal and something I didn't want to share.

Of course, I was chastised for that over the years by different leaders and even people.

So many reasons that they can come up with for why I left.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 17, 2018 06:03PM

Faith = pull "nothing" out of the air, deem it exceptional and life-changing, and then use it as a weapon against those who do not possess the gullibility to have it and use it.

The poster's words, "Testimony and faith are extremely useful tools in control because they have no substance and so cannot be questioned in and of themselves," are strong concise words which sum up nicely.

I have had, "Where is your faith?" hurled at me when I only had an interest in having a simple conversation with another person.....a conversation where we could share perspectives and ideas.

This question, "where is your faith?" is ugly and accusatory and conversation-stopping where you are made into the lacking-evil-villain.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 08:20AM

> I guess you use the tools you have... >

I think you meant - you don't use the tools you have - you use the (plastic) tools tscc has/ allows.

I won't fight for anything (LDS).
TSCC would have to fight for me!
And undoubtedly loose.

M@t

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 12:02PM

Testimony = Selfhypnosis

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 12:05PM

Yeah. Or self-lobotomy?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 12:08PM

Or it's as simple as going along to get along...

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 12:48PM

Is doing that really simple? Does it feel good to do that?

I am considering that all compromise was not created equal.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 01:44PM

I agree on the conclusion you've reached, that 'compromises' run the gamut on the how-hard-is-it continuum.

If you think the church is a total crock, but don't feel the need to break the WoW, nor fool around on your spouse, going along to get along is probably relatively easy, especially if you have a job that you can use to avoid 'availability' to attend church or accept callings.

It's vaguely seedy to do this, but I think there are ever so many people who don't feel the need to 'revolt', so long as they are left alone.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 03:49PM

Yes. I do think the "self-lobotomy" only applies to a few, but it makes a nice line here as I love exaggeration.

In the end what we were all caught up in is very complicated and the negative ramifications can run very deep and are not easy to extricate. With believing spouses and children it get's really tricky to navigate and I wish everyone the best of luck with whatever they choose to do. One does hope to be left with functioning organs once the cancer is extricated after all. No?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 18, 2018 04:32PM

¡Claro que sí, mi cuate!

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