I read this site but haven't posted. I have a question about something I've done that's affected my marriage and am looking for any input.

I withdrew my name from church records several years ago. My wife still attends, we have 3 children, all under 15.

It hasn't been fun.

She's not a real believer in the sense that if you asked her whether golden plates actually existed, she would say, "probably not".

But she loves the church for social reasons. She takes the kids every week and she maintains lots of friendships. She's smart, funny, and makes friends easily. Her friends are almost all LDS.

I take the position that all believing mormons are not good people for one reason alone.

Their church teaches that those who no longer believe are lazy, sinning, or otherwise stupid.

(I'm not wrong about this. Look at some recent talks, the doctrine and convenants, and ask a true believer to tell you why people leave the church - they can't provide any respectful reason)

I go out to dinner/movies with her and her friends and keep my mouth shut.

She says that most mormons don't even think deeply enough to understand what I am talking about.

But,

at a recent outing with a very mormon couple, I opened my mouth and explained the problem - I wasn't invited to do so - it just shot out.

To make a long story short, they were rude to me and told me that I had no business accusing them of such a thing in the first place (even though I got them to admit they believed that all exmos were lazy sinners) and that unless they bring up religion it's rude to do so.

My wife agreed.

I told them that they talk about religion all day long everyday, so they are hypocritical.

They disagreed until I reminded them that their church has 70000 plus missionaries and every member is a missionary. The entire belief system is built around either telling people that their own belief system isn't good enough or setting an "example" of righteousness so that people will wonder why they are so great. That the church literally takes the position 24/7 that no one is as good as them and they all need to know it.

With that - the conversation ended and it was all silent until we dropped them off. Very uncomfortable.

My wife is furious. She thinks I should just treat all the mormons like they are kids who don't know any better.

Told her that I refuse to do that anymore.

It's time for everyone to take responsibility for what they say and what they believe.

Things aren't good in the Arschlock house.

Did I go way to far?

Results speak for themselves

Gatorman

Gatorman not logged in Wrote:
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> Results speak for themselves
>
> Gatorman


Completely disagree. Judging whether one violated unwritten social rules should NOT be based on the responses and opinions of others.

OP, you were the only sane person in that exchange.

No doubt your wife has complained about you upteen times to The Mormons. Your reputation always precedes you. And I think you should be cool with that.

A major milestone in being 'out' is the consciousness that we are not liked. We are a project, a pariah, perhaps pitied.

But we are not liked.

If they don't want to hear other opinions, they need to avoid the subject all together.

Mormons expect to be treated like children but also to be respected as mature intelligent adults. I'm afraid they can't have it both way.

Still, their feelings are easily bruised, so we have to expect them to lash out if we don't play their games by their rules.

Sometimes the truth does not go down very well, which is the understatement of the year when it comes to Mormons.

Of course things went silent. They are used to being deferred to and they have no comeback when you present such a solid statement of their actions. They think they have the right to say whatever they want and you have the right to listen quietly. They prefer you feel ashamed as you listen, as well.

You did not go too far. You stood tall. You spoke the truth and now the chips will fall where they may. That is hard to do.

Sooner or later everyone has had enough of taking the high road that only goes in circles anyway.

Do not apologize to anyone is what I say.

then she needs to quit putting you in that position. It is rude to do to you, but she doesn't mind being rude to you.

Tough one...

Did it feel good, feel right?

How big a hit is your marriage likely to take? You certainly cannot opt out of socializing with her and her friends, no way!

I gather you have not had the opportunity to create a cadre of your own friends... That's where I'd concentrate my efforts, in hopes of creating an attractive pool of friends to which your wife would be attracted.

Don't gripe to her about her mormon friends, instead offer her an alternative. Of course if you live in Orem that's going to be tough.

Also, you used facts and logic with mormons! You got exactly what was to be expected!!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Also, you used facts and logic with mormons! You
> got exactly what was to be expected!!


Awesome. Excellent point.

During portion of conversation with mormon couple about mormons spreading gospel 24/7, I also pointed out that they are paying for their 19 year old missionary (daughter) to tell everyone they are wrong.

That they were lecturing me about raising religious issues un-invited but that they literally pay directly for someone to knock on doors everyday to raise religious issues with strangers and tell them they aren't happy enough without mormonism.

That's what really struck a chord and shut them down.

It sound like you can be honest and correct--or--you can be married.

Truly, you sound like an ass. What results were you expecting?

She's smart, funny, and friendly. Wow. She sounds great.

I'd apologize and ask her to help you change the subject when the church chat gets to be too much.

Flowers. That's my suggestion.

Arschlok means asshole in German. I'm well aware of my status.

But. I think Mormons who claim they know church is true are even bigger arschloks.

Am not willing to lose my wife over it but also no willing to live my life around poeple who literally believe they have God's ear

Good luck having a semi-TBM wife and calling out the arschloks.

If she won't let you speak freely, or gets freaked out by the truth, that's different. Stomping on her feelings to make a point to unimportant Mormons?

If you have a sense that she isn't die hard TBM, flowers and an apology--to her, not the jerk arschloks, is a great investment in the future of your relationship. She's not right, but isn't the relationship worth a "I'm sorry I said too much."?

I was a fence sitting Mormon until I was 42, if my hubby had been confrontational with my Mormon friends and family, I would have probably hunkered in. I don't know, my hubby is not your average guy. He hates talking religion to this day.

My point is not who is right and who is wrong. My point is on keeping that relationship intact if that is what you want.

and face reality.

Reality is that most mormons don't even understand their own religion objectively. Probably none of the true believers do.

I am being an asshole just by pretending that I can be civil inwardly being around any of them.

I either have to be civil and accept they are aren't capable of talking about real issues and put it aside or

stay completely away and deal with the consequences of that.

Perhaps I'm trying to have it both ways and it is impossible in the end to keep my self respect and to keep the peace as some have mentioned.

In the end - it's one or the other and I haven't been honest with myself or with her about that.

Arschlok Wrote:
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> Am not willing to lose my wife over it but also no
> willing to live my life around poeple who
> literally believe they have God's ear

They do not hold back or tiptoe around you. Sounds like there's been a climate of open expression regarding the topic of religion. You spoke your opinion and they didn't like it.

I don't care for religious types, so I avoid those kinds of friendships. Of course, these are friends by-proxy for you, a casualty of marriage.

I disagree with Dorothy on the flowers and sucking up. As I said in my previous post: you are not liked. Tolerated at best and these friends probably feel sorry for your wife.

But marriage does not equate as mute, whether it's traditional vows or temple sealing.

This began the moment it became public that I had withdrawn my name from the records.

There have been all sorts of things thrown at me over the years from all - and I'm not exaggerating when I say ALL of my own family and people who I thought were my friends.

There hasn't been one that didn't pass along some falsehood, ask me point blank about whether I have a pornography addiction, tell me I may need counseling, try to parent my children in what they perceive to be my absence just because I'm not mormon, etc. etc.

I've held it all in until this discussion with my wife's friends and this was really just a frustrated attempt to see if I could make some headway with this line of reasoning.

I take what happened over the years, this attempt and the comments on this board, which I respect and realize that it really is what it is.

I can't have my cake and eat it too.

I should just be the best husband and father I can be, make friends with different people, and treat the mormons as they are - just acquaintances - of their own choice.

Dorothy Wrote:
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> It sound like you can be honest and
> correct--or--you can be married.

Better to be hostage but married?
How so?


> Truly, you sound like an ass. What results were
> you expecting?

Is there something wrong with being "an ass"?
Where did you learn that? Have you put critical thought to it?
What, precisely, and exactly, is wrong with being "an ass"?


> I'd apologize

What did he do wrong that he needs to apologize for?
Are YOU responsible for MY feelings?
How could that be just?


> Flowers. That's my suggestion.

Be reasonable, honest, sincere, and respectful always - and ready and willing to walk, always.
That's my suggestion.

No misery tops the misery of the hostage who cannot be true to himself.
Who cannot stand alone.
Who is forced to seek from others confirmation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2018 05:00PM by zenjamin.

You have truth, honesty, and correctness on your side.

Your side might be pretty lonely, but that's what some people prefer.

Dorothy Wrote:
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> You have truth, honesty, and correctness on your
> side.
>
> Your side might be pretty lonely, but that's what
> some people prefer.

==================================

Nope.
Not lonely.

Being exacting has made it easy to have precisely the caliber of relationships - at all levels - that we mutually want.
No gamesmanship is necessary.

But that is not the point.

My actual "sin" is that I transgress the accepted party line of what is - per the imperative - acceptable male behavior.
It's not what I said; it's that I said it at all. That I have the audacity to call it out for what it is.
That's why both the OP and I must be put back into the box as quickly as possible.

But shaming as a compliance tool has been so over-utilized it is no longer effective.

Just think about it.

Huge! This is hugely profound and under recognized. Thank you for communicating this so well. I've read your posts multiple times - brilliant.

No. You didn't go too far. Many members are socially inept when around non-members. They panic when they can't talk church. Moreover, mormons judge others harshly. They believe that it's their job.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2018 07:25PM by Amyjo.

You didn't go too far. Mormons need to be called out on their hypocrisy, bigotry, etc.

My opinion is that you can, in a mixed Mormon marriage, have either your integrity, or your “marriage” but likely not both.

When I left, became inactive, it took about 8 yrs for my TBM now ex to finally decide I wasn’t more important than the cult.
I, like you, reached a point where I could no longer remain silent in the face of blatant hypocrisy.

Ultimately I had to chose between deferring to her “beliefs” or being authentic. I chose the latter. In your case, prepare yourself for that eventuality because your situation sounds similar to mine.

Did you go too far??? That depends on whether you value your personal integrity or your “marriage” (parenthetical because she’s more married to the cult than to you) more.... only you can answer that.

Good luck!!!

"Did I go way too far?"
================

No.

People react - emotionally or otherwise - how they choose to react.
To say: "YOU are responsible for MY emotional state" is not only absurd - it is the biggest lie in the book. It is the tool of slavery. It is a tool to control YOUR behavior based on MY emotional state - something I control. If we buy the lie - we become hostages.

Think about it: Super Bowl commercial.
- Some laugh;
- Some become enraged;
- Some have no response at all.

How can a single stimulus produce such a variety of responses?
It is because the response is in the person responding: not in the stimulus.

They chose to take offense.
Offense was not inevitable.
It was their choice.

We are responsible for our actions - but not the other's response.
We can't be held responsible for their response. It isn't under our control.

If you apologize for their emotions, it is blood in the water.
Under a mere 1/2 centimeter thick cortex we are pack animals; you will be butchered if you apologize. You did nothing wrong.

May be useful to clarify responsibilities (i.e. how is it I am responsible for how another chooses to respond) because it is largely unconcious. Once people think about it, this makes sense.

Could easily be:
"you know, I trusted you guys to be adults and responsible and behave civilly, I thought I could trust you to not go all emotional on me - but guess I was wrong about you and your level of maturity - so guess I'll have to treat you like the kids you apparently are, which is why they're called: "kid gloves." I'm disappointed in you -- and that we cannot be equals -- but that's life."

Would that make you a dick?

Well - there's nothing wrong with being a dick.
At least you will have begrudging respect.

In mormonism - you are respected as long as you pretend that laughable things are actually serious, and obviously un-true things are actually true.

Once you tell anyone in mormonism that the Emporer is naked, any "respect" that existed for you before is lost.

You are not longer as good of a person as you would have been had you maintained your testimony of the fiction.

I've spent several years now being accused of all sorts of things and I have kept may emotions in check knowing that the mormons are like kids.

But, my children began to be aware of this at some level, and I've had enough as a result.

It's the mormons who force you to choose.

They are the ones that can take you if you play buy their craziness or leave you and pretend like they barely knew you if you don't.

My own mother - "no one is keeping you from attending the temple wedding, you just need to get worthy so you can come in. Your'e invited all the time".

No one is worthy but the pretenders.

"In mormonism - you are respected as long as you pretend that laughable things are actually serious, and obviously un-true things are actually true."
===================================================
It isn't respect.
It is basic civility.
Kindergarten - level stuff, "I won't be nice to you" because of some banal make-believe butt-hurt. Childishness.

Mormons don't even respect themselves.
This is why the incessant obsequious behaviors signaling: "please, please think well of me" - begging respect from others.
They have no idea what respect even is.

A person with self respect stands tall.
Standing tall is a sin in Mormondom.

What the Mormon considers "respect" -- I eschew with open and evident contempt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2018 05:21PM by zenjamin.

arschlok Wrote:
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> My own mother - "no one is keeping you from
> attending the temple wedding, you just need to get
> worthy so you can come in. Your'e invited all the
> time".
Wow. She is upper eschalon magical thinker!

We ex-Mormons aften have a difficult time socializing with Mormons, because the Mormons can't lie and pretend to us. We used to be one of them; therefore, we know their recruiting motives, their manipulative tactics, and their attitude towards those who leave.

It is exactly as you told your wife's friends, arschlock.

Once the Mormons know we are aware of their "hypocracy", they feel dis-armed and naked. Posing, being phony, pretending to be happy and perfect, pretending to know all the answers, feeling they are the only ones who are right--this is the way they were brainwashed to relate to others, and to each other.

How else can they deal with you now? Their only option is to shun you.

You did not go to far. You were honest. However, you probably made a mistake, in appearing to be "the bad guy."

My husband found out Mormonism is a hoax, before I did. He left the cult, and refused to pay tithing, and refused to support it in any way. He gave me and our children lots of attention, and family fun on the weekends, around the meetings. He agreed to not criticize the cult and our Mormon friends, and not interfere with our children's and my church attendance. In return, I agreed to not give him a hard time about leaving, or try to force him to go to any Mormon meetings or activities.

Religion became a non-subject in our marriage. We had so many things in common: our children, their sports, their school activities, our volunteer work in the schools, weekend trips, family outings to the park and zoo, tennis, golf, music, bla-bla, and church was at the bottom of the list. Elder Olddog has some good advice.

Do not use logic and facts with Mormons. Do not debate or criticize. As Cheryl says, Mormons expect to be treated like children, and it's best to avoid the subject of religion altogether.

My husband was nice to our Mormon friends, and kept his opinions to himself. When my husband went inactive, our Mormon friends stopped including us in their couples' activities. Gradually, I became socially marginalized, and labeled as "the wife of an inactive Elder." I, as the faithful Mormon, was blamed for my husband's inactivity, and my MIL and the elder's quorum harassed me, constantly, and said I should be FORCING my husband to go to church, or else our family was doomed to break up.

I also got a good look at how shabbily my husband was treated, by people I thought were kind, I thought of as friends. I had no husband around, to protect me from Mormon men who tried to hit on me, thinking I was open-season prey. They were unkind to my children, too. In other words, I witnessed, first-hand, the nasty underbelly of Mormonism. These people were not our friends.

I still believed in their fake doctrines at this time, but when I realized that the sermons, lessons, and behaviors were NOT Christ-like, I started to study my way out of the church. I had to do this on my own. I was too stubborn to follow my husband's example, in the first place.

If you are patient, and give it time, and let your wife feel the full brunt of Mormon social shunning--without trying to smooth things over with the Mormons--without bad-mouthing them, either--the Mormons will shoot themselves in the foot.

Being phony can go only so far, and soon your wife will see for herself that the entire religion is a hoax invented by a con-man. Be patient, and NEUTRAL.

My take:

If you can only "socialize" with certain people if you are dishonest (or silent), have to walk on eggshells, can't say what you really think about something, and can't ask them sincere questions...then they're not worth "socializing" with.

Actual friends don't mind honesty. They don't mind "hard" questions. They don't mind talking about what they think, and don't mind hearing what you think, even if it's different from them.

Life's too short for fake friends. Find actual ones.

So...no, I don't think you went too far. I think you're tired of having to be dishonest and having to pretend these are real friends.

Now you just have to get your wife to see your side...good luck! :)

Who knows maybe they will stew on it and someday see the light. Rome wasn't built in a day!

I guess it depends on who you ask, but this was going to eventually happen in one form or another. IMHO, you and your wife need to have a sit down and reevaluate your relationship. When you say "She's not a real believer in the sense...", I call BS.

BS in the sense that she really is a believer and just tries to placate me or BS in the sense that?

thanks

I think she is a TBM and I think your pretending she is not a TBM. Only my opinion.

I'm making it up.

But I may be deluding myself based on comments she makes.

She won't come out and say the church isn't true, but she will say that certain things about the church don't make sense and aren't likely to have happened.

I am realizing that for me, any one of the things she has admitted, mean the church can't be true, but to her, whether the church is true or not may have nothing to do with whether Golden plates actually existed.

I was in a similar mind set. I started reading books about polygamy--Wife #19, Under the Banner of Heaven. That stuff started to cheese me off. That fence sitting began to be impossible.

Might be worth having those books in the house? Good luck.

If anyone wants to tell me how madly in love they are with their religion, that's ok with me. But if they don't want to hear my opnion on any of that nonsense, they better don't bring it up.
I'm not just gonna sit there and smile silently.

What I usually do when people start gushing about their faith, is throw in a gentle "so you're saying you really believe that? Like literally?"
In most circles, that is a clear hint not to go down that road any further. If they still want to go down that road, it will be a bumpy ride ending in a frontal collision.

me: Don't Allow church or religion into your Life, let alown your Marriage/family.

Sometimes, even Often, it's better to bite the bullet.

I don't feel you went to far in the least bit. Having lived through what you are going through now, I found that being open and honest was far easier to deal with than the death kick associated with keeping quiet and being miserable.
For me the shunning still exists with my 4 children and 14 grandchildren. My ex has moved on and remarried. I regret losing my family but in the end Matthew 19:29 sustains much of my decision to leave my calling as a YSA bishop, and ultimately loose my family due to my "faith crisis".

I also strongly feel that the LDS church has become the living entity of what was portrayed in Lehi's dream, the great spacious building (temples) and the people mocking us heathens with pointed fingers. The angry responses when they are challenged with hard questions is evidence to me of their own lack of faith and their laziness in actually researching the origins of the great lie of mormonism.

Lastly, the Gadianton robbers, met in secret places, with secret handshakes and secret names. The temple going mormons are a living examples of modern day Gadiantons, they just don't or can't recognize it.

>>I take the position that all believing Mormons are not good people for one reason alone. Their church teaches that those who no longer believe are lazy, sinning, or otherwise stupid.

All believing Mormons are not good people. Think about that statement for a minute. Would you include your wife in that number? And also consider why you are socializing with people whom you do not respect.

You are not incorrect about what you said. And you may have given that couple something to think about the next time the subject is taught in GD, Priesthood, or RS. But IMO you are going to have to learn to pick your moments and be a heck of a lot more subtle in your approach.

The blunt force method is not often the best way to reach hearts and change minds when you are dealing with people who are very locked into one way of thinking. What you probably accomplished was to harden them in their position.

summer Wrote:
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> All believing Mormons are not good people. Think about that statement for a minute. Would you include your wife in that number?

This is Brilliant.


> And also consider why you are socializing with people whom you do not respect.

This also Brilliant. Gets into demarcating own responsibility, most fly right past it.


> But IMO you are going to have to . . . be a heck of a lot more subtle in your approach. The blunt force method is not often the best way to reach hearts and change minds when you are dealing with people who are very locked into one way of thinking. What you probably accomplished was to harden them in their position.

This may assume that there is some sort of duty -- something I owe and, as a result, an objective I would be trying to accomplish with/for these people. Am I endeavoring to "reach hearts and change minds"? To what end? What is my responsibility to them, or -- is there one?

Would have to look at it. Not certain at this moment that I would be bound by some sort of ethical duty.

You don't have to, of course -- just pointing out that subtlety can work better than a stronger approach in certain instances. It depends on what you want to accomplish.

summer Wrote:
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> You don't have to, of course -- just pointing out
> that subtlety can work better than a stronger
> approach in certain instances. It depends on what
> you want to accomplish.

=========

Brilliant yet again. The kind of thought Lao Tzu would write.
Be an excellent diplomat in the foreign service (if you are not one already).

You are very kind. I studied Taoism in college. Taoist philosophy has been very influential in my thinking.

insofar as she claims that the church is true. I've told her this and that is why possibly, that she hedges when confronted with questions about it.

Not very nice I know but I don't see any other way to make the point.

Believing Mormons just don't get it that you can't claim that anyone who leaves the church is a lazy sinner and expect them to think you are a good person at the same time.

On the other hand, as stated above - I'm probably assuming far too much.

I think that in this post you make a better point than you did originally. Instead of calling all Mormons bad people, you should simply state that if you call everyone who leaves Mormonism a lazy sinner, you can't possibly expect them or anyone else to think of you as a decent person.

Here, you focus on the particular offensive behavior and call it out. Now the person in question might just have committed the offense. But still, it is the behavior, and not just their membership in a group that is called out.

I personally find “the one true church” line offensive, and would have no problem calling that out as well.

Focus on the behaviors, rather than demonizing people in general. I think that is a more effective course that can keep you true to your values.

And nobody should by trying to be ein Arschloch. I mean really!

Sounds like you have some serious growing up to do.

Also, it can't be much of a turn on for your wife that you're so thin-skinned that other people's religion makes you prone to emotional outbursts in social settings.

Sticks and stones, man. Sticks and stones...

quidprostatusquo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, it can't be much of a turn on for your wife
> that you're so thin-skinned that other people's
> religion makes you prone to emotional outbursts in
> social settings.
What? That is the quintessential TBM man! She probably regrets he is so free thinking.

I remained cool and collected.

I've never lost my cool over this issue but am trying to engage mormons about the reality of the situation and have realized that not only are mormons unaware of the problem but non-mormons may be as well.

Have lost this issue and will likely never open my mouth again to anyone including my wife about mormonism.

That sounds like an "all or nothing" position. Those don't usually work over time.

asks

>>not only are mormons unaware of the problem but non-mormons may be as well.

Your average nevermo (non-Mormon) would have no knowledge of this practice. But I am a nevermo and I know about it.

I really get where you are coming from because I find it reprehensible as well. If missionaries ever tried to convert me it would be the *first* thing I would bring up -- "What do you call people who voluntarily leave your church? What does your church teach about the reasons why those people leave?" I think it would be what educators call "a teachable moment."

But if it's one thing I've learned during my long teaching career, someone is ready to learn something or they are not. If that person is not ready, you could bang on about it all day and all night and it wouldn't matter.

arschlok Wrote:
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> I remained cool and collected.
================================

It is ipso-facto obvious from your posts:

- You take nothing personally;
- Are eminently dispassionate, rational, objective;
- Are consequently "cool and collected."

Yet what is fascinating:
Notwithstanding this cool rational approach and supported argument, the level of palpable reactive anger drawn by your (very logical) comments and questions is well over-the-top. Why, folks label you an "ass" - with true feeling. These anger type comments have generally no specifics to support "ass"-ness other than: "Thou Art One." Not sure they could articulate the why-ness.

Where does this anger come from -- that is what is fascinating.
It cannot come from anything actually written, as that in itself is pretty minimal. It couldn't generate such a hearty response.
No, -- that magnificent anger and offense taken comes from somewhere else. Somewhere deeper.

Could it be that some unwritten assumptions and rules governing relationships have been exposed and - by that very exposure - called into question?

Why - something like that would surely generate the wrath observed.
It may well be something else, of course. But it's nothing you actually wrote.

I love being a student of human behavior.

that modern society has evolved to the point that opinion giving...if it makes anyone the least bit uncomfortable...is or has become forbidden.

We've taken the live and let live approach so far that we can't express opinions and thoughts if it will interfere with the fun.

If I'm right, we are all just acquaintances and not friends and that is the most we can be.

arschlok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Have lost this issue and will likely never open my
> mouth again to anyone including my wife about
> mormonism.

IMO, you didn't lose. I understand your reticence but please, don't make vows at this point. Be proud of yourself, look at the timeline of your life and maybe imagine a version of you at 85 years of age? Would that man be proud of you? I think so.

It smarts but a marriage that requires either/both parties to jump through hoops falls short of what a great relationship could be. You are not responsible for your wife's feelings nor The Mormons.

Try to get your bearings and keep business as usual in the home, work, etc. This incident brings up major questions about your future so keep posting here and just see what the next thing is before you.

Everyone should be their own authentic selves. Period. Of course you don't need to start anything with wife or anyone, but if they start with you, give it back to them right between the eyes. Like EOD said back it up with some evidence. They can't argue with science either. As they say where I'm from, "Don't start none, won't be none."

I don't think you went far enough but that is coming from just me.

I think your username explains that you already know the answer and knew so when you picked that name.

Yes you were an arschloch. And yes Mormons usually are too.

Mormons teach and preach about seeking after truth, from its founding figurehead J Smith. Then gets their panties in a knot when that comes home to roost.

So you were honest, but not tactful.

Maybe work on the tact, without giving up the honesty?

With my TBM family we don't get into such discussions, because it's a lose lose. We sidestep it, and respect our differences. Otherwise I doubt we'd have any cordiality left between us.

OP

Have read all the responses thus far...maybe it’s my 70+ years or the fact that I am a football official and used to dealing with lunatics with testosterone poisoning... some arguments, confrontations and even temperate discussions are not worth it. I can’t see you made any difference in the life of the other couple and likely made your wife good topic of discussion in RS/PH combined session. If you planted a seed anywhere where either they or your wife will use to truly look at the church objectively I would be very surprised. But I do think a suggestion above that neither you nor your wife should put you in that position again is really good advice. I used that for years but the roles were reversed. My bride left years before I did....your wife has to accept your feelings and the powder keg they might be....telling the truth can sometimes be highly overrated....Kindest Personal Regards

Gatorman

Did you "go too far?" I don't know. You certainly caused a stir. That happens in social situations, especially when people are learning to be authentic with each other. Maybe your relationship with those "friends" is over. What about your wife, though? Where's the footing going to be there?

This statement really hangs me up: "Believing Mormons just don't get it that you can't claim that anyone who leaves the church is a lazy sinner and expect them to think you are a good person at the same time."

I don't get this. It just seems to be indicative of someone who needs more confidence. Mormonism is wrong not simply because Mormons believe a silly story concocted by fraudster, JS. It's wrong because it makes just about every possible philosophical mistake. That means TBMs are mostly suffering from cognitive dissonance in some way or other, so a former-mormon can afford to be magnanimous. Because believing that TBMs suffer from cognitive dissonance is so condescending, the only way to avoid arrogance is to be compassionate. Compassion at least begins with not pitying oneself.

That quotation, above, has got two parts. First, Mormons think ex-Mormons are lazy sinners. Second, being thought of as a "good person" is important. These illustrate two of the innumerable double-binds of Mormonism. The second shows the terrible co-dependency that zenjamin pointed out earlier. Really, who cares if people you don't even respect think you're a good person? And that Mormons themselves can't recognize the contradiction and self-congratulation of their own beliefs is simply par for the course. It's offensive, but being offended is a waste of energy. After all, why pick on that particular inconsistency when there're so many others to chose from?!

Even beyond that, the whole concept to a Mormon of a "good person" is an object lesson in never hearing about the banality of evil. In Mormonism, goodness--for most people--means not being thought ill of by other cowards afraid of being thought ill of. Mostly, then, being "good" means being self-obsessed, small-minded, self-righteous, and complacent. When you see the fear that generates this definition of "good," and you step out of it, it might make you angry, but you don't have to be angry at the perpetrators. They've never learned anything about a greater good. So, find out what a greater good is, and teach others. Having a self-directed purpose might make you less reactive.

The first proposition, that Mormons think people who quit are lazy sinners, just shows a basis of the religion: adhering to a set of rituals to seek personal gain--salvation, CK, whatever--relief from this world. There's nothing particularly laudable about this pursuit. No one became a great person by following their own, narrow self-interest. Serving oneself, if done rigorously enough, can protect one from a charge of laziness, but sinning? Who's sinning is not for another person to decide, and judging a fellow person as a sinner is itself sinning because it arrogantly assumes to oneself a prerogative of God. Not that a Mormon knows any of that. They are adhering to a set of rules and coercing each other in order to prop up each other's shallow faith.

I think I'd be most concerned about your wife's idea of "socializing." What's the point, really? What's she trying to do? I second the posters who advise you to go out and find some real friends, people with whom you can talk about anything.

On the other hand, the so-called friends you've got can be cultivated into true friends as well. Every situation's got potential. Just think, you as a person who can both make your own point and lead others to their own authenticity is different from you as a person who shuts up, plays along, then appears to blow up out of nowhere (no one but your wife knows how long you've been seething--and she's got an interest in maintaining your self-censorship and denying that you're not fine with it).

I doubt the situation's unsalvageable, and you've probably got to decide what you want to make out of these social contacts in the future.