I don't know about you but I'd rather not be governed by religious fanatics who make policy based on fallacy:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeanine-pirro-trump-biblical-jerusalem_us_5af92283e4b032b10bfbf607

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 04:42PM by anybody.

Doubtful.

But the fact remains that we ( the U.S. ) can move our embassy anywhere we want to , permission from Islamic believers is not needed.

The borders of Israel were defined thousands of years ago and can be found in the Bible.
Interestingly, the Golan Heights are not included.

Palestinians et al need to get used to the fact that Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem again after winning it back during the Six Day War.

This isn't rational, fact-based decision making. To advocate for something just because you think scripture tells you to isn't rational.

More about national pride these days, and less about scripture.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The borders of Israel were defined thousands of
> years ago and can be found in the Bible.
> Interestingly, the Golan Heights are not
> included.

"Israel" ceased existence as a nation/state nearly two thousand years ago, after being conquered by the Roman Empire (and several others, including the Babylonians, before that). The supposed "borders" defined in the bible were irrelevant then, even more so now.

This should have only to do with today's geopolitics. The fictional stories of borders from ancient books, which have had no relation to reality for at least 2000 years (if ever) are irrelevant.

This is indeed NOT rational thinking. What the Bible says about the borders of a supposed country has no relevance to the current situation. And it'(s not about Islam, either - many Palestinians are Christians (I've met several) but they're still protesting - because their own country was stolen. They're only asking for 22% of it back.

Tom in Paris
(whose daughter spent last year in Jerusalem and is training as an international security foreign policy specialist with a focus on the near and middle east)

I agree that religion should not enter into policy decisions. Israel has designated Jerusalem as its capital. The US can put our embassy anywhere we want.

There were concerns after German unification of recognizing Berlin as the capital of Germany. The US moved our embassy from Bonn to Berlin.

So a group of Americans want the US Embassy to be moved to Jerusalem because it's one of the things that has to happen before they can be raptured.

So some dude runs for president and in order to secure that voting block, he promises to move the embassy to Jerusalem.

Dude's performance ratings are in the toilet, so time to make good on campaign promise to keep said voting block squarely in his pocket.

Announces move of embassy.

It's a miracle, fulfillment of prophecy! Leave enough food out for the dog so he'll survive after we're gone until some sinners are out scouting for cheap houses and find him.

Pack up our rapture bags, we'll be called any day now. The tribulation is coming.

10 years later: Hey, why are we still here? This HAS to be the end. Iran wiped Israel off the map. Let's all hold hands so we can go to heaven together. Surely he's calling us tomorrow. We're not supposed to be having to endure this. That tribulation is gonna be pretty damn bad if it's worse than this. So glad we won't have to be around to see it.

Do we always put our embassy in the capital?

Point is people who were jumping up and down about this were not doing so because of strategy or geopolitics. These folks are going on and on about the end times, some red heifer and the third temple and other nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 02:12PM by anybody.

SOME folks are going on about the end times. Major Christian denominations(Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, and Orthodox) don’t go on an on about the end times.

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOME folks are going on about the end times. Major
> Christian denominations(Catholic, Protestant,
> Anglican, and Orthodox) don’t go on an on about
> the end times.


Exactly.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 02:18PM by anybody.

. . . the noise and the policy.

Elections have consequences, and this is what we have to deal with right now, unfortunately.

I hate this administration. Loath it

Jerusalem is considered the eternal capital of Israel. So whether it is a fulfillment of prophecy or not to move the embassy there is a moot issue IMO.

What matters is that no matter where the embassy is located, Jerusalem's location as the "eternal capital" is fixed.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jerusalem is considered the eternal capital of
> Israel. So whether it is a fulfillment of prophecy
> or not to move the embassy there is a moot issue
> IMO.
>
> What matters is that no matter where the embassy
> is located, Jerusalem's location as the "eternal
> capital" is fixed.

Absolutely true...

That being said, however, I think this present moving of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem is fraught with all kinds of will-be-played-out-in-the-future complications.

I can see no good in this for the United States...nor any good for Israel...nor for the Middle East at large...or for the world as a whole.

However: For those who yearn for Armageddon to arrive, and as soon as is possible, this is a wonderful thing...God bless them all. ;)

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jerusalem is considered the eternal capital of
> Israel.

It wasn't so "eternal" when no state/nation of "Israel" existed for thousands of years, hence Jerusalem wasn't its capital...

That's where the current nation has its seat of government. So it's probably where our embassy should be. But this "eternal" stuff is historically inaccurate, and loaded with religious baggage.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jerusalem is considered the eternal capital of
> > Israel.
>
> It wasn't so "eternal" when no state/nation of
> "Israel" existed for thousands of years, hence
> Jerusalem wasn't its capital...
>
> That's where the current nation has its seat of
> government. So it's probably where our embassy
> should be. But this "eternal" stuff is
> historically inaccurate, and loaded with religious
> baggage.

I usually agree with you, Hie, but not on this.

"Israel" means "the people Israel" as well as "the territory Israel," and Jews have always kept their identity as "the people Israel."

During the two thousand years of dispersion, Jews have always, and very consciously, maintained their personal and their community identification with the land of Israel.

Right now as I type this, and as you are reading this, the sites of ancient Israel are being dug up, grain of sand by grain of sand, from the literal trash dumps of ancient history...and most of what is being dug up is connected with what was, in ancient times, the land of the people of ancient Israel.

This has something to do with religion, yes...

...but mostly it is about the Jewish people, who have (worldwide, and sometimes in the MOST improbable places) maintained their identity as Jews (even the "hidden Jews" who are coming out of five centuries of secrecy right now, right here in the United States...and all of those Jews who, in ancient times, went to Africa and the Indian subcontinent, and the far reaches of the Muslim world and to China...and who are now in a safe enough place to acknowledge not only their Jewish ancestry ("the past"), but their present status as a people who have maintained their attachment to the land of Israel despite centuries, and millennia, of secrecy and genocide).

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Israel" means "the people Israel" as well as "the
> territory Israel," and Jews have always kept their
> identity as "the people Israel."

I understand that's what it means to Jews.
It's not what it means to me.

Personally, I'll be very, very happy when these kinds of ancient, tribal, ethnic divisions disappear. When we don't "judge" or segregate a group of people based on their ancient ethnicity. When all we humans treat all other humans as simply humans.

I understand the historic persecution, and how bad it has been, for Jews (and other ethnic groups). I understand the need to "belong" to a group, the grounding it can give you, the identity and solidarity it can supply.

I also want to move past it. And I think the continued insistence by Jews (and other ethnic groups) of separating themselves by a tribal/ethnic identity keeps us from moving past it.

I know the Jewish saying, which has been used for a very, very long time, "Next year in Jerusalem!" I get it.

I also long for the day when that no longer matters. When Jews don't feel the need to express their ethnic identity as a small, persecuted group of humans -- but are just humans like everyone else. And those who (still, to this day) want to rid the world of Jews stop doing so, and treat them like any other humans.

I simply don't find the "biblical" assertion of "this is our land, and our capital, because it's always been so!" reasonable, accurate, or useful. If we Americans felt so strongly about such ancient, tribal land claims, we should hand over most of the US to the Native Americans. We aren't going to, and to assert that we "should" is absurd -- our history in dealing with them was awful, but the reality of today is what matters most.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 06:54PM by ificouldhietokolob.

And Europe (including the UK) needs to be given back to the Italians...

I think not. I'm with Hie on this.

What Jeffress and others want though isn't the reunification of Jerusalem as Israel's capitol. What the evangelicals want is to usher in Armageddon, not the peace of Israel *or* Jerusalem.

This is one step closer in that direction.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next world war begins right there given the rising tensions in the Middle East between opposing factions, and none other than Israel's enemies surrounding her on all sides - who each faction declares Jerusalem to be their capitol, not Israel's.

There is nothing in Israel. A few halfway decent beaches. Wind sailing on the Sea of Galilee is decent. You can smear the mineral rich mud of the Dead Sea on yourself. There is nothing there to defend except for religion. There is no oil or natural resources worth fighting for. It's all religion. Jerusalem is a butt ugly piece of rocky real estate. I say if someone wants it, let them have it. Only fanatics care about such a place.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is nothing in Israel. A few halfway decent
> beaches. Wind sailing on the Sea of Galilee is
> decent. You can smear the mineral rich mud of the
> Dead Sea on yourself. There is nothing there to
> defend except for religion. There is no oil or
> natural resources worth fighting for. It's all
> religion. Jerusalem is a butt ugly piece of rocky
> real estate. I say if someone wants it, let them
> have it. Only fanatics care about such a place.

I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that all Jews worldwide care about Jerusalem, and about Israel--and only a small percentage of Jews are fanatics.

I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that Palestinians care about Jerusalem, and about Israel--and most are NOT fanatics.

What non-human, economic resources a specific place possesses can have little to do with its value to those to whom it is a part of their being and their identity...and "ugly" is a personal decision of every individual.

What may be "ugly" to you may be precious to someone else, who looks at it and says: "Three thousand years ago my family was part of this land, and here I am, linked to this place, and to them, through time."

Any Native American, any Australian aborigine, any ancestral African (black or white...doesn't matter), any Japanese, etc., etc., etc. feels the same.

The Six-Day War happened while I was at UCLA. There were a lot of Jewish kids there, and the atmosphere was electric. I remember coming back to the dorm after classes one day, somebody in my dorm had painted a bed sheet with a huge, blue Star of David and hung it out of their window.

A day or two after that, I was coming out of a classroom when a group of kids launched an impromptu "hora" rang dance. Somebody grabbed my hand and pulled me into the group. I had been dating a Jewish boy, so I could at least pretend to dance along. Several people were singing a song - in Hebrew, I think - and I remember feeling a kind of sorrow, because these weren't really "my" people.

And yet, they were. There was a sense among many of us that "we are in this together." L'chaim! (sp. . .)

catnip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And yet, they were. There was a sense among many
> of us that "we are in this together." L'chaim!
> (sp. . .)

L'chaim...and Todah (Thank you!), catnip!!

:D

There really is no reason for the US to be in the middle east anymore. We currently are the world's largest oil producer. In the past we went into the middle east to keep the Soviet Union out and to keep them from controlling the cheap oil there. The only thing that keeps us in the middle east is feeding the military industrial complex and Israel need us there to survive. Israel would never survive without the support of the US. Because of this Israel needs an enemy. Iran is convenient due to the rhetoric of it's mullah leadership. Of course Iran is on the verge of revolution and we could overthrow the mullah government by covertly backing the revolution there. This does not help Israel so Netanyahu is appealing to Trump's ego to keep US support of Israel and to get the US to fight Israel's wars for them. Bibi needs war since he's a crook and has come under fire for his crimes. Have a war as a distraction. The scriptures say Israel does something to piss the world off and bring the world's military's against it. Oddly enough this could be a possibility even when we would be smart to just ignore Israel and wish them luck. You have 300 nuclear weapons and more PHD's per capita than any other nation. You believe you are God's chosen people. Great. Let God help you and I would rather see our money used her at home.

Perfect predatory person to patronizingly promote some people's sense of prophecy.

Mormons did it with Columbus. Evangelicals can Trump that.

Trump is the perfect example of an "anti-Christ," if ever there was one. :(

A whole lot of alliteration there!

We do not know what Trump or anyone else is thinking, so we can't make assumptions one way or another.

However, the Islamic movement did not appear on the scene until approx. 600 AD, they have no say in the matter.

Islam might as well forget it - Israel will NEVER give up their ancient capital - Jerusalem the eternal.
NEVER.

It did come first. And will probably be the last.

I don't think Trump would give a rat's behind but his daughter and son in law are Jewish and he's getting his butt kissed by the Jews and Trump likes getting his butt kissed. He needs to stop listening to Netanyahu and bringing Bolton into the White House is a big mistake. Trump really could escalate things in the middle east if he's not careful. I say leave. Pull out. We don't need to be there.

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We do not know what Trump or anyone else is
> thinking, so we can't make assumptions one way or
> another.
>

I'm not sure that anyone can actually accuse Trump of thinking.

Whatever happens in Israel doesn't stay in Israel, simply put.

This Middle East debacle has gotten a whole lot more personal to me because my daughter currently resides in Israel, where she has made it her home. She is an innocent in all of this.

Ivanka and Jared along with Mnuchin can fly home to their ivory castles where they are guarded by Secret Service. Not so for the ordinary civilians living in eretz Y'Israel. They are literally at the mercy of their enemies, and their God.

While Trump plays with fire, real lives hang in the balance.

Yes.

I don’t see the problem, ten years from now nobody will care.

Whiskeytango Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t see the problem, ten years from now
> nobody will care.

Sure, 'cause this hasn't been an issue since before WWII.

Oh, wait...never mind.

You have no idea.

Still waiting for Mormons and Lamanites to build the New Jerusalem in Missouri. Or not.

This is a disaster! Jerusalem was supposed to be overseen by the U.N. It is disputed territory. Signing it over to Israel is a betrayal of the Palestinian people, no less.

I have a very right wing conservative that cited some biblical passage about the end of times when Obama did not meet with Benjamin Netanyahu when he came to the U.S. a couple years ago

I looked up the reference and couldn't find any kind of connection to the end of times prediction.

My friend belongs to a fundamentalist church and often preaches there. So he comes across as a biblical scholar.

I asked about his end of times declaration and to further enlighten me.

Didn't hear from him for about a month, then I got a short note that he was preparing for the Easter program and would get back to me afterwards.

Haven't seen any updates for over two years.

But who couldn't adore Netanyahu's chicken dance yesterday? Adorable!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-celebrates-eurovision-win-with-chicken-dance/

How is that different from opening a bagel franchise? Leavened bread is mentioned in the Bible. Embassies, not so much. If Jesus does return, it will be for the smoked salmon.

Some future president can move it back to Tel Aviv, if he or she wishes. I'm not going to get worked up about it.

Tell that to the 60 or so dead Palestinians since Monday.
Oh, wait, you can't.

Never mind.

It would be difficult to pull the embassy out of Jerusalem. That would imply that the US no longer considered Jerusalem an inalienable part of Israel and invite attempts to change its status, including who occupies and controls it.

Since Jerusalem is part of Israel's legitimizing ideology, moving the embassy would also indicate a reduced American commitment to the country. It would deeply offend Israel and turn parts of the American Jewish lobby and the Christian fundamentalists against the administration. I'm not sure any political leader would want to bear that risk.

Putting an embassy in Jerusalem is a lot easier than removing it. That's why the US refused to do it for 70 years.

The current embassy location in Jerusalem is temporary at best. There is a piece of land there owned by the US and earmarked for a future building, Since the current location is temporary it cane be moved back to Tel Aviv by any future president.

...Allow me to place myself in the middle of the political spectrum here. Where both sides will attack me, I know.

I don't believe in scripture, so by no means will I ever defend any biblical claims to the Holy Land as the sole property of the jewish people. But neither will I accept the myth (widely believed by most Europeans and muslims) that the jews suddenly left Palestine around the time of Jesus' death and didn't return until 1947ish.

Ottoman censuses from around 1880 show that jews then outnumbered both muslims and christians in Jerusalem, as well as in many other towns and villages of what is now Israel. That was before Theodor Herzl et al started promoting Aliyah. And even those early "colonizers" between 1885-1915 basically got themselves a passport at the embassy and legally bought property. Then, after WWI, the League of Nations and the UK agreed that Cisjordan (22% of what was Palestine until then) would become a jewish state, with Transjordan being separated from it. More jews emigrated in the 1920s and 1930s as a consequence, and after 1945 this became a flood.

Now, those who shout "Palestine shall be free, from the river to the sea" need to explain just where all the jews whose parents and grandparents were born there, should go? Some say "back to Poland, Germany, Europe!" But millions of Israelis have more Arab than European blood. Millions of jews lived in, and were pestered out of, muslim countries like my Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen, Iran, the islamic parts of southern Russia.

The two sides are unwilling to compromise, but the only solution will have to be a compromise. To me, Israel has a right to exist because of the promises made 100 years ago. And to me that includes Gaza and the West Bank. But we need to help the Arabs who do not wish to live in a jewish state. We should be able to make another desert bloom, this time for them.

For those, jews and Arabs, who DO want to stay where they are, I am sorry, but they will have to see eye to eye, negotiate, compromize. Or as we call it, belgiumize.

I'll go dodge your bullets now ;)

Meh...your post is well stated. Doubt anyone will flame you here. In 1967 Israel won back Jerusalem, and doubt they will give it back. Sort of a moot point. I don't agree that "we" need to help the Arabs who do not wish to live in a Jewish state...they can either live there and abide by rule of law (which most do anyway) or get the F out. When anti-Semitics say "free Palestine", the question should be asked, "Free them from what?"