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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: May 15, 2018 11:05PM

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bible-loved-by-christian-fundamentalists-written-using-method-they-hate

"Dr. Nicholas Hardy, an early modern scholar at the University of Birmingham, has unearthed new sources that point to the participation of French scholar Isaac Casaubon in the translation of the KJV. Though a prominent scholar in his own day, Casaubon was not previously thought to have been involved in the project at all. But correspondence between Casaubon and John Bois, one of the KJV translators, and Casaubon’s diary in which he records conversations with Andrew Downes (another KJV translator) reveal that the KJV was not an all-English affair. In fact, Casaubon was hardly proficient in English. As Hardy writes in an article, Casaubon’s diary reveals that he struggled to follow English language sermons in church. The British like to think of the KJV as an all-English production that is closely tied in the cultural imagination to national identity, but actually, as Hardy told me, “England was a massive net importer of biblical scholarship in this period, and that situation wouldn’t change for at least a half-century.” It might be the King James Bible, but it was put together with the help of one of France’s greatest minds.

But the discoveries of this correspondence, together with Hardy’s discovery of a copy of the Old Testament that was heavily annotated by Bois, can tell us a great deal about the kinds of philological and interpretive issues faced by the KJV’s translators.

In trying to produce accurate translations that made sense of the Greek, Bois and Causaubon used methods that today would be called “historical-critical.” They struggled with inconsistencies in the chronology of books of the Hebrew Bible and used Greek literature to deduce the meaning and function of passages of the Bible. In their correspondence Bois points to an article Causabon had written on riddles in Greek literature as a parallel to a passage in the Old Testament apocrypha (a part of the King James Version people often don’t know exists). That they are using historical methodologies is stunning; not only because we tend to associate these techniques with the Enlightenment period and the rise of science, but also because, today, conservative fundamentalists consider these methods to be an attack on the Bible itself."

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 03:48AM

Moral: never trust translators ;-)

I should know - I've been one for the last 31 years!

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 08:36AM

Especially French - English translators!

N'est-ce pas Tom? :)

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 09:48AM

Absolument, monsieur. Vous êtes en plein dans le mille ;-)

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Posted by: sd ( )
Date: May 17, 2018 06:40PM

to Mrs Macron. "Will you pee on me?"

Translator: "That's a very nice dress you're wearing today!"

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 17, 2018 06:41PM

Hahahaha. Good one. :-)

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 11:43AM


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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 10:12AM

And this explains the word "adieu" in the BoM.


The church™ is true!!

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 11:51AM

... That the KJV translators of the Bible were an incompetent bunch of amateurs with nary a grip of the ancient Greek?

Seems fitting, as the Bible in ancient Greek came about the same way, and all the authors of all the books of the Old and New Testaments were often, well, ill-informed about the topics they were reporting on.

Note that the earliest gospels appeared over 30 years after Jesus died, and John's appeared another 30 years after that. What can you guys tell me about your neighbours in the 1980s? Your classmates in the 1950s?

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 12:42PM

I think that, if he existed, knowing Jesus might have left more of an impression than my neighbours in the 1980s...

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 01:00PM

And for some reason there is absolutely no word about Christ in any historical source from the first or second century CE. Not one. Only Christian sources. Circular evidence.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife (nli) ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 01:31PM

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, was a late first century history that mentions Jesus in a couple of places.

There may have been some subsequent embellishments but the consensus is that the names and the core treatments, which are not extensive, are genuine.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 02:31PM

Lot's Wife is (as usual) correct.

But the combination of the two posts above merit discussion...VW said "Christ," Lot's Wife said "Jesus."

The christian assumption is that the two different words refer to the same person -- and they usually put them together, as in "Jesus Christ" (as if it were his last name!) or "Jesus the Christ." That assumption is faulty.

See, VW is wrong. Tacitus mentions "Christ" (Christus, actually) in his Annals. He doesn't mention Jesus. This matters, because Tacitus' mention (which itself is considered by some to be questionable) essentially says, "Here's what christians believe -- it's a silly superstition." If he were referring to Roman records for his mention (which christians often claim), those wouldn't have contained any "christ" or "christus" or "messiah" or anything of the sort -- they would have had the common name of the person in question. So Tacitus NOT using "Jesus" indicates (if the passage is authentic) that he was simply reporting what christians of his time believed about their "messiah," and not what "actually happened."

Josephus, on the other hand, mentions "Jesus." In the infamous "testimonium," after the mention of "Jesus" it says, "He was the christ." Pretty much every historian ever considers THAT to be a later christian insertion, if for no other reason than that Josephus never was a christian, so he wouldn't use the Greek term for "messiah" or "savior" if he didn't believe. So if the "testimonium" is authentic, it mentions a "Jesus" (which may or may not be the historical figure believed to be "christ"), but not "christ." In the only other mention in Josephus, only "Jesus" is used -- no "christ."

:)

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 04:51PM

Of course they have. I am not saying there were no christians in the first and second century CE. Christians get mentioned, sure.

But there is no word from any eyewitness of Jesus, or Christ, in any source that isn't a christian source. You'd think that if someone went around healing the sick, curing the blind, raising Lazarus from the dead, feeding thousands of people, turning water into wine, walking on the Sea of Galilee and so on, for three years on end no less, well... You'd think that neutral sources would report on it, no?

But no. That never happened. Jesus only gets mentioned much much later. By people like Tacitus, born decades after Jesus death, and writing about it in his final work, eight decades after Jesus.

Oh, and like I said, even the christian sources were rarely eyewitnesses. Most of the New Testament was written by Paul and other Johnny come latelys.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 06:03PM

Yep.

I just like clarity :) I've had numerous christians tell me, "...Tacitus mentioned Jesus!"
No, he didn't. :)

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 05:15PM

I've told the story before of my brother converting the 1970's, and one thing he related from his new-found belief in the Restored Church™ was that there was a Roman prisoner record of a tall Jesus with blue eyes.

He never "learned" that stuff growing up as an Episcopalian.....

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 06:34PM

First time I've heard of this particular faith-promoting true tale!

Do you recall the provenance of this Lasting Truth?

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 17, 2018 12:44AM

They usually start with someone who heard it from a retired surgeon, lawyer or BYU professor who goes to the same ward as a GA or a bigwig at the COB who told them to keep quiet about this because it would upset other christian denominations, though one of the Apostles is currently writing a book about it which will not be published for a while. Also insert something about secret archives of the Vatican along the way.

/s

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Posted by: Visitors Welcome ( )
Date: May 17, 2018 11:18AM

Lot's Wife (nli) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, was a late
> first century history that mentions Jesus in a
> couple of places.

Again, published sixty years after Jesus died, by someone who wasn't born yet in Jesus' time. At best, because, wait for it...

> There may have been some subsequent embellishments
> but the consensus is that the names and the core
> treatments, which are not extensive, are genuine.

Not true. The two passages about Jesus are heavily disputed, because all the existing copies of his work derive from christian sources. In fact, the earliest complete Greek manuscript of the Antiquities dates from the eleventh century.

So, still no eye-witness ;)

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Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: May 16, 2018 01:10PM

One of the TV series I really enjoyed,"Testament" by John Romer. He explorers the origins of the Bible and the layers of history and meaning that have been built up around it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCgA1-XLA9c&list=PLTu8nanTJo7F3ogLNuIU4uidNBxQT632z

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: May 17, 2018 09:41AM

The Bible is the product of a quilting bee. So many different ways to put scraps together. Pick the colors you like and stitch them together.

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