Hi, I’m sort of a fence sitter right now, and I never would have seen myself that far from faithful. It’s shocking for me to be entertaining the thought that what I’ve been taught all my life is untrue.

I want to share what’s going through my mind and hopefully hear from those of you who feel the same.

Several years ago, I started trying to picture what it would be like to be gay in the church. I thought up the scenario of a married gay couple hearing the discussions for the first time. What would they be expected to do? How would they be expected to react? Or would they be written off as not worth teaching?

I couldn’t see any good Mormon answers to these questions. And I wondered how I would react if I had a gay child.

Frankly, I began heavily questioning my beliefs when I saw the way conservatives were acting during the election. I had always considered myself conservative, because I considered myself a good Mormon and those went hand in hand in my mind. But what I saw was so incredibly, undeniably unchristian. It simply couldn’t be defended in my opinion. It was a shock when I realized I was liberal. I no longer felt comfortable around conservatives, which caused me to stop attending church regularly.

I’m not stating that something is wrong with all conservatives, but it was shocking to me just how many of my neighbors had opinions that were exactly opposite mine. Opinions that I found to be in direct opposition to Christ’s teachings.

I don’t think I’m going to recover from that, and I assume I’m in the drawn out process of losing my religion.

Recently my daughter came out as gay. It made it much easier to see the flaws in church teachings. I couldn’t see a way to be LDS without rejecting her. I decided to love and accept her first, knowing that I would have to abandon some previous beliefs. The way I handled it was way different than what I expected. I basically just turned my back on the church.

It was no longer compatible with my life. So I’m kind of in shock. I had planned on building a life around this church. And an afterlife. And my wife is understanding, but somewhat in shock to my lack of belief. It just feels like a mess.

You're in transition mode from losing your religion. It is deeply unsettling as a Mormon since our whole identity was grounded in a cult.

It takes time to undo the brainwashing and indoctrination. It may take years. Be patient with yourself, gentle and forgiving.

As a parent I'd feel the same as you if any of my children came out as gay. Being in a cult that bashes gay people and their children is as unChristian as it gets.

Amyjo Wrote:
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> You're in transition mode from losing your
> religion. It is deeply unsettling as a Mormon
> since our whole identity was grounded in a cult.
>
> It takes time to undo the brainwashing and
> indoctrination. It may take years. Be patient with
> yourself, gentle and forgiving.
>
> As a parent I'd feel the same as you if any of my
> children came out as gay. Being in a cult that
> bashes gay people and their children is as
> unChristian as it gets.

It definitely takes years.

The rug has been yanked out from under you. Your wondering where you will fall without the churches safety net. Most people here have had your same feelings. Life gets better and you realize that you've been in a bubble. Enjoy the journey. Lean, grow, and good luck. Post your feelings as often as you'd like. Welcome to the board.

Mixing religious and political topics is messy at best. Especially when political discussion is discouraged here.

You don't need to look at church policy towards gays to discover the church is false. There are dozens of other things to look at to discover the falsity of the church if one is actually willing to look.
The church has successfully conditioned its membersheep to simply "doubt their doubts" and not investigate any of the evidence that exposes it as a fraud.
Members are conditioned to feel that they are committing a sin if they examine their doubts. The church ISN'T true even though some of what it teaches may have some truth to it. One of the best places to conceal a lie is between two facts.
Conservatism has some truth to it as well.
Congratulations for thinking your way out of and escaping the box they put you in.

It’s a huge part of my story.

Conservative politics and LGBT issues are the two things specifically pushing me away.

Seeing people crying and “feeling the spirit” tell them things in US politics that I am whole-heartedly opposed to made me realize how unreliable my feelings were.

I've never really changed my "tribal status"; I grew up mormon and l have no interest, nor intention, of changing that. Of course the tribe has really al compared to 60 years ago.

I am now a foul mouthed, beer drinking, immoral atheist who grew up mormon and has never loved life or his fellow man more. One trip through the temple was all it took for me to know mormons are not in touch with a divine being.

They try hard to make their religion relevant, which is why it is constantly changing, but it remains flawed, because the GAs serve themselves, not the "church", meaning the members. Well, that's just one proof, of the ever so many that exist.

Mormonism, the eternal public relations nightmare of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The sow wishes Joseph Smith had been an honest farmer.

Welcome to the possibility of living YOUR authentic life. So what if no one else gets it? Mormonism is always going to like be wearing a tuxedo for a day at the beach. You can only make sense of it by sticking with the the other tuxedo-wearing frolickers. And what kind of a holiday is that?

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Mormonism is always going to like be wearing a
> tuxedo for a day at the beach.


So, in effect, MORmONS are Penguins?

Some things now make so much more sense!

Isn't it amazing how "beliefs" you hold all your life can come crashing down in an instant when someone you love is the victim of those beliefs?

And isn't it wonderful that you let them crash down, and chose your daughter over such beliefs?

Yes, it is wonderful. You chose to love your child unconditionally. Bravo. Well done.

Your love opened a crack in your belief. Open it further. The claims the church makes about its "priesthood," its origins, its scriptures, its temples, its "afterlife" -- all false. Not a one of them is true. Revel in the realization that it was your love for your daughter that let you finally examine those things critically, rather than just "play along."

You're about to enter a world where YOU decide what's right, based on observable facts, your own experience, and your innate empathy for others -- instead of one where other people tell you what's right based on made-up nonsense. It's a great world you're entering. It's full of love and acceptance and tolerance and wonder and facts...and it's full of challenges, because now it's up to YOU to figure out what to do, rather than simply following what some old guys in SLC tell you to do. That can be scary...but it's oh so rewarding!

I believe you would like reading sid143 on the biography exmormon board here, page 5. Very similar to your story. As a gay exMormon his story warmed me to the core. I was so happy some gay kid had a parent who really understood and was full of unconditional love. Read the one titled "Leaving the church was easy because I had somewhere to go."

Your head and your gut and your integrity and your empathy are all in the right place, which happens to be a million miles away from the Mormon church.

You have found out what is even more important that knowing about the fraud and the troubling (to put it mildly) history of Jospeh and Brigham. Trust your gut. Trust yourself. There is no point if you don't do that. This is much bigger than politics or selfish Mormons. This is the part of life where you choose yourself even as you choose your daughter over a mean church.

Your daughter is lucky to have you, There is plenty of happiness up around the corner. Best to you.

One more thing. As a Mormon gay kid who went through hell with the guilt and torment that came with that, with the terror of my secret, I cannot tell you how beautiful the joy of that heavy burden being lifted from me when I realize the Mormon church was one big lie. Most beautiful moment of my life that made all the rest possible.

Your realization is a great gift. You aren't losing anything that is worth keeping. You are gaining a real life. You already know that though from your post.

Reading the OP, I am wondering what is going to happen with my TBM grandson and his TBM wife: Their oldest child, a brilliant young man, named "Dallin" (after Apostle Oaks), who will start college next fall at age 14, has informed his parents that he is really female, is letting his hair grow long, and wants to go by the name "Lynn." He is hoping to get sex-change surgery and hormone therapy as soon as he is 18.

He (as a "she") will never be allowed in the temple. She will be excluded from the "eternal family"... The Mormon church will ostracize her.

We'll see how this affects his parents' faith....

One of my dearest friends since college days has been a gay guy. He is an outgoing, friendly guy and we have always had the kind of relationship I used to think you could only have with a woman friend. We talk about feelings, our relationships, and just about everything else. He is a very gifted linguist - probably the most remarkable I have ever met - as well as a prolific writer with a wonderfully witty outlook on life.

When I met my Mormon DH, he was shocked that I had a gay friend. It took him a while to understand that because my friend was gay, he was no threat to our very hetero relationship. He hinted for a while that it was not really appropriate for a Mormon to have an openly gay friend. I made it very clear that this guy was my buddy for life, come hell or high water.

When my friend sent a wedding announcement, telling me that he had married his partner of 30+ years, I was thrilled. He lives in another State, so I had to choose and send a wedding card to him and his husband. (It is a little tricky to find a nice card that does not refer to "the bride and groom!)

As I was signing the card with "Love, catnip" (as usual), DH asked me if he could sign it too. So he added, "and DH [name.]" So with that, he acknowledged and accepted my friendship with my longtime friend. For a dyed-in-the-wool TBM to accept my long-held and very real friendship with a gay guy, was a BIG step for him.

Baby steps. One at a time. He told me once that he had never really thought of gays as "people" before. He has changed a LOT since then. When he was still teaching, he became the faculty sponsor for the Gay/Straight Alliance at his school. He got to know and love the kids that were in the group. Together, we attended several weekend retreats to cool places with the kids.

One of the girls in the group greeted me with a hug as we were setting forth on an outing. She told me, "You understand me more than my mom does. I can't tell her who I am."

It's a process, and a rewarding one.

I'm a nevermo (never a Mormon) who has been a longtime member of this board. I went through the same thing with the religion in which I was raised, Catholicism. I learned some good values in that church. But there came a point when my own sense of ethics would not allow me to stay for various reasons.

You have been a member of a faith that taught you it has ownership of knowing what is right and what is wrong. You are finding out otherwise. This is just the beginning of your journey.

Welcome. You are among friends here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2018 06:22PM by summer.

I gained a lot of insight to the values held by Conservatives and how they matched the Mormon ethic when I watched Jonathan Haidt on TED, and read his book, "The Righteous Mind". I found my disdain for Republicans loosened just a bit. (Mormonism, not so much).

Liberals value caring, fairness, equality, compassion.

Conservatives (and Mormons) values are vested in respect for authority, tribal loyalty, and sanctity (no premarital, extramarital, homosexual, or non-missionary position sex; no coffee, tea, alcohol, cigarettes, or marajuana.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2018 11:38AM by auntsukey.

So much welcome here.

How lovely that you put your love for your daughter above those old beliefs.

My daughter is gay. I was already out when she came out. I still had to wrap my head around a different path for her.

My daughter is talking forever with her current girlfriend whom I adore. I wouldn't have things any other way.

I was a fence sitter for about 15 years. It feels so good to put your feet back on the ground--and you find out the ground is wonderful--not at all scary and evil as we were told.

I changed my political stance 180 degrees as well. I quit pleasing an imaginary Mormon God and looked inside my own heart and brain.

Again, welcome and good luck on your journey.

You're very brave to question your old assumptions. Enjoy your stay. I'm looking forward to having you here.

I suspect that on some level you knew that your daughter was gay before all the rest of this came up.

Mormonism is a high control religion, right down to what you eat and what underwear you wear. Everyone is expected to have the same views, including that your daughter is so much less than everyone else. This is where you hit a wall. It is both a religious and political issue. And the truly most divisive political issues are religious or have religious overtones.

I can understand why you find the political views of your co religionists abhorrent. They hate your daughter in a fundamental way. You love your daughter. You can’t stand being around people who hate and discriminate against someone you love.

It is all tied together. As an aside, the thing that has moved the needle towards acceptance of gays and lesbians is having an openly gay person in your life. Your Mormon acquaintances just aren’t there yet. If they continue to do as they are told, they might never get there.

I think Felix said it best by simply pointing that the church is false.

No matter how nice the people are, or health benefits of not smoking, the REAL fact is that Joseph and his cohorts made up theology and stole the rest--everything since then has been built on that rotten foundation and spinning the massive mistakes that inevitably followed from created/cribbed works like the BoM, BoA, D&C and all the crap that BY and others spouted as the philosophies men mixed with the philosophies of men mixed with the philosophies men mixed with the philosophies of men...yadda yadda yadda...

When my daughter brought home her girlfriend for the first time...no big deal, as long as people are GOOD people, that's the key.

Happy to meet you, and kudos to you for standing beside your daughter. Having someone who will be there with you through thick and thin is something that cannot be overstated as a life saver.

In my youth I turned to the church because it was friendly, and I thought really cared about me. It didn't take long to find out both were conditional upon my being ultra-obedient, asking no questions, and dotting every "i" while the church was free to lie and break every rule they were saying I must follow.

Take your time discovering.

One book I would suggest that I think is a good read being both interesting and informative is Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History about Joseph Smith.

We need to talk. I am a smoot. I want everyone to go check out my declaration of war on the Western Smoots. Its serious. We are gonna go crazy.

It is a mess. The church rearranges our lives in a way that is inconsistent with reality. When we finally open our eyes, and try to transition back to reality, everything is a mess. I would venture to say that practically everyone on this board knows exactly what this is like and what you're going through.

Congratulations on starting to use your brain again. I know I always thought I belonged to a "smart" religion, and that we were so much more intelligent than our protestant "cousins". But we were just as bad, if not worse. We followed our leaders. We followed the prophet. We attended our meetings. We bowed our heads and said "yes". We were just a herd of brainwashed sheep. Like little children, afraid to think for ourselves, because we were conditioned to be afraid of thinking for ourselves.

You are breaking free from that. You are replacing the flawed worldview model the church has supplied with the beginnings of a much, much better model. If you value the truth, you just can't be content with a worldview model that does not agree with observed reality. All that does is create cognitive dissonance, confusion, stress, and unhappiness (if you value knowing what's true ... if you don't, then go ahead and take the blue pill).

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I just want to offer my support to you and your family as you make this transition. All members of your family may not be able to make the transition. That is the crushing reality of just how bad the church really is. I sincerely hope you can get all of them out, and you can enjoy the remainder of your days searching for truth and happiness, and chunk this pile of crap in the garbage can where it belongs.

Hang in there. It's worth it.

Welcome to RFM, Scoates!

You are a true hero to stand by your daughter!

I left the Mormon cult (yes it is a CULT) one Saturday morning, when I sat my children down at the breakfast table, and asked them directly, "Why do you hate church so much?" I had to make sure they knew I was on their side, that I loved them unconditionally, and that I would listen, and not get angry. You see, the children's Mormon leaders made them believe that as a Mormon parent, I would reject any complaints, and punish them for any questioning or rebellion against "The Church." Before my children would open up to me, I had to promise them I would not punish them. I had never punished them before, but the leaders had threatened them so severely, that they were afraid to talk to me. The leaders had also threatened punishment, and shunning. They had also threatened God's punishment! That's right, they threatened my children that God would withdraw His blessings from our entire family.

Mormonism is a cult based on fear and threats.

I can't imagine the courage it must take for a Mormon gay person to come out!

My children had been abused by our ward priesthood leaders! My little 10-year-old girl had been molested by the bishop's son, a creepy, repulsive high school senior. It happened at a ward campout, and there were witnesses! My daughter screamed, and other kids saw what was happening. The bishop threatened the kids that saw. He told them that there would be no more campouts and no more ward activities and that my daughter and the witnesses would be to blame for this. Everyone would hate them. He told my daughter that the molestation was HER FAULT (she was asleep when it happened), and that I as her Mormon parent, would ground her and punish her.

My sons had been assaulted, kicked, hit, and shoved, when priesthood leaders came into our (unlocked) house, and pulled them out of bed to go to meeting. At meeting, my boys were ridiculed for looking disheveled. They threatened my sons, telling them if they told me, I would be angry that they were sleeping in and missing the meetings. This happened several times, and I didn't know about it, because I was already at church, playing the organ. My children were and are good kids. Actually, no child deserves to be bullied and abused to this extreme, by strangers.

I still believed in Mormonism at the time, but it took me only those few minutes of Truth at the Saturday breakfast table, for me to tell my children, "You never have to go there again!" We were all crying. I'm a single mother, when we stopped attending (and I quit being their organist and paying tithing), the Mormons harassed us, banging on our door in groups of 2 and 3, late at night. I found RFM, and discovered that we could actually resign--most Mormons don't know this--and we formally resigned, together.

Mormons have a way of interfering in parent-child relationships. (Have you ever heard: "The Bishop is the father of the ward?" The cult makes the rules for raising children, and the parents obey these rules. Mormonism was causing a rift between me and my children. After we left the cult, we went to the Lutheran Church, and sometimes the Presbyterian Church. The boys joined a scout troop, sponsored by both churches. Other religions didn't make us argue. We are closer than ever, now.

Sorry for the rant.

Most of Mormonism is in direct opposition to Christ's teachings.

Where is the Love?

I was profoundly unhappy for the first 40 years of my life. When I began to understand the church was at the core of what's wrong and I began to admit to what I had seen my whole life and left, I've found genuine happiness. I live a more authentic and honest existence.

Thinking your way out of an oppressive cult that discourages thinking is a noble action. But, most people don't have the will power or know how to do so. My hat has always been off to those that have escaped their clutches.

Mormonism is a mess.

It's not us!

M@t