Those pesky Messianic out-to-save the Jews from a fate worse than death, ie, being Jews - from themselves. Are sneaking "Messianic Perspectives" newsletter by CJF Ministries out of San Antonio in the Israeli section of the supermarket, in between food items. It's a big, bulky newsletter so you cannot miss it.

It's annoying as all getup. I picked it up to dispose of it, so no one else has to. What a waste of time and effort trying to convert the Jews by such sneaky, uninvited methods. It's insulting.

Occasionally I will see a Messianic local leader wandering through the same supermarket. Now I shall be more circumspect, because that is what they're about. Surprisingly, the majority of them in our community were never Jewish to begin with. Only a tiny minority of them were before becoming Messianic. But they are the ones who rule the local synagogue with an iron fist.

It's run so much like the Mormon cult in some respects, as in very controlling from the top down. They don't tolerate dissent or questioning from within the ranks. The leadership is not to be questioned, especially. And what they say goes. Jews see them as betrayers of the Jewish faith. They are considered like Judas Iscariot to Jesus' in Jewish ranks in terms of their betrayal.

But sneaking Messianic materials into the Israeli food section of the grocery isle? Are they getting that desperate for new members? That would be my guess, is they're hurting for money, and know that Jews forbid proselytizing. How else are they going to reach them unless they're calculating and underhanded? Except they forget one thing: doing that just pisses Jews off even more!

It's not just in North America, either--from what I understand, there are similar campaigns going on in Israel (with Israelis increasingly concerned, on all kinds of levels--very much including possible consequences in regard to international politics in general, as well as possible consequences regarding the Temple Mount).

[My own supposition is: If there are these kinds of conversion efforts are going on in North America and in Israel, then the same thing is either happening, or is in the pipeline, for not only Western Europe, but anywhere in Eurasia where there are concentrations of Jewish residents.]

Most Christian missionaries who function as parts of organized conversion efforts (as versus those whose objectives are service, and similar, projects: medical supplies, food, school materials, etc.) have the objectives of increasing their denominational membership numbers, and also, in some cases in particular, their annual income.

In the case of at least some Christian missionaries whose overall goal is to convert Jews to their niche of Christianity, however, the goals seem to be something else altogether:

1) Trying to speed up the arrival of Armageddon, which makes this particular conversion effort of great interest to not only Jews (who are the target of it), but also anyone who would rather NOT "bring about Armageddon" or anything similar.

2) This conversion effort seems to have quite a bit more going on behind-the-scenes than [in contemporary times] was true of
previous, and relatively unsuccessful, efforts to "convert Jews to Christianity." There seem to be, behind-the-scenes and in a macro vision of what is going on, efforts to "create Christians" who (as a goal) would gradually become politically active in different ways, in accord with their new Christian denominational activities and beliefs.

People have been trying to convert Jews to other religions for literally thousands of years, and sometimes they have been enormously successful in specific cases (in medieval times in Spain and Portugal, etc.)

This newest iteration seems to be different.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2018 09:15PM by Tevai.

Agree with this here. Messianics have set up shop in Israel through forming congregations there, and charitable foundations. The Jewish Messianic Alliance of America is the largest single organization for Messianics in America, and has chapters both here and Israel.

They do believe in saving Jews from themselves, and that Armageddon is right around the corner. They're zealous, overly so IMO. I haven't met a "moderate Messianic."

They also interact more with the evangelical Christian groups in their communities than the Jewish ones. Jewish synagogues want nothing to do with them. One Jewish rabbi in our community told the Messianic rabbi when he was in the market to expand the synagogue size, and wanted to buy a Jewish synagogue that was for sale. The Jewish rabbi told him it would never happen, and "over his dead body." He was that serious.

I ran into one in Paris. He offered to show us the sites. We declined as he likely had ulterior motives

Messy antic

They're called "Messies" for a reason!

Words are neutral in themselves and assume significance only by the meanings we assign to them. No small deal as words can ignite wars. Always good to check your definitions!

The word in your subject line, AmyJo, "buggar" is one such. It brings back a funny memory. Long ago I used to read a Mormon board every once in a while. Someone included that word in their sub line (which is actually usually spelled with an 'e', not an 'a'). I was shocked that the very strict Mormon board with ever-present Admin vigilance, would allow such a big swear word to be used and in such plain view. I knew the word to be exceptionally profane and read it that way, to the point that I reported it to their mods. The main mod edited into the post that the word had been removed as it is apparently considered severe swearing in some locales. That was the first I knew that words can mean such drastically different things to people, often determined by location. I had thought that "everybody knows" what it means, as if there is only one definition. Turns out it's of UK origin which perhaps explains why in the Constitutional Monarchy of Canada it is also considered to be deeply profane. Interesting though that in this century even salty language is getting more play. Maybe with the increased exposure one day my ears will lose their sensitivity to many of the previously forbidden or at least hidden or "adult" words.

But it's not just me. The Oxford English calls it "vulgar slang". Another reference states it refers to a person who is considered "contemptible". Yet another: "a person who engages in what is considered abnormal sex" (eg: with an animal). Way back (1400s and beyond) it apparently meant "heretic". Of course back then one would not want to be classified as a heretic as the tolerance level for religious differences in many places was zero. Hence its longtime negative connotation.

The meaning I am familiar with (being British/Cdn) is the same as that condemned city in the Bible that is paired with Gomorrah (the first name won't post here - too offensive or troll bait?), as well as ******** (the adjective for a person from that city) obviously having exceptionally derogatory intent.

Some people use it as a general curse, not referencing the (city that can't be named) meaning, as in "this computer is buggered" (i.e., broken). It can be a useful word in that way, a satisfyingly hard and direct cuss to express annoyance. However, knowing full well the primary meaning that I have always heard about it, I certainly avoid its usage. It still seems strange to me that the meaning is apparently so regional.

The Encyclopedia Britannica writes, in part:

"[city I can't name], noncoital carnal copulation. The term is understood in history, literature, and law in several senses: (1) as denoting any homosexual practices between men, in allusion to the biblical story of [name of city] (Genesis 18:19), (2) as denoting anal intercourse, (3) as synonymous with bestiality or zoophilia (i.e., sexual relations between human beings and animals), and (4) as comprehending a number of other sexual activities, ranging from sexual contacts with minors to oral-genital contacts and oral intercourse between adults.

[It] is a crime in some jurisdictions and is condemned as a mark of abnormality in many others."

I enjoy words and especially finding shades of meaning. Some people are highly talented at selecting exactly the correct word or phrase at just the right time. I like that.

This word, in my experience and locale, is pretty clearly profane as well as offensive to people who have been too long and too often targeted as "abnormal" (except maybe the sheep guy - that is definitely out there).

So imagine my shock/surprise to read at RfM that there were "buggars" in the kosher deli. For one instant in time the thought flashed through my brain that it didn't sound very "kosher" to me. {{jk}} :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 04:56PM by Nightingale.

Hehe. And I meant it to mean contemptible. I thought the letter a could've been replaced with the letter e, but it looked more contemptible to me to spell it with an a. Plus, buggars rhymes with the Duggars. The huge reality tv show family from Arkansas.

It's very offensive to me to see these materials strategically placed where Jewish people shop. There aren't many Israeli kosher sections in our metro area to shop at. The Messianics know this is one way to sneak into their grocery aisle and plaster Christian materials on them without actually introducing themselves.

Messianics are only out to "save" the Jews. They don't care about converting non-Christians to Christianity. Just Jews to Christianity. And that is reprehensible to Jews in general.

So the derogatory meaning fits! And I didn't have to add "swearage" in the title line. Works for me. :)

Yes, I get it AJ. I missed commenting on your actual post. Sorry. I don't know too much about the topic but it's interesting.

As for swearage: Well, as per my post, it's swearing in Canada! And RfM is actually international. But maybe only just. Not much need to cater to non-USA readers/posters? Maybe it's like that old saying: You say pot-ay-toe, I say pot-at-oh.

I learned a new (and old) swear word today.

Here it's a form of slang for a derogatory term. Per Wikipedia, it can be spelled both with the buggar or bugger. Surprised?! :)

Maybe somebody on Wiki just made a spelling mistake. :)

I don't think so. I've seen it spelled both ways.

In fact the Wikipedia meaning is thus (and not as derogatory to the same degree as your take it seems. It is an expletive in the UK, but until you mentioned it I hadn't heard that before.)

"Bugger or "buggar" is a swear word. In the United Kingdom, the term is a general-purpose expletive, used to imply dissatisfaction, or to refer to someone or something whose behaviour is in some way displeasing or perhaps surprising.
Bugger - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugger

Nightingale, I was interested to read your post. While I am aware of the more explicit meaning attached to the word “bugger”, this Canadian girl has never seen it as particularly profane - more as a “not terribly polite but not terrible to use” word. As an elementary school teacher I’ve probably used it more than once in private conversation with other teachers when referring to some of our more lively students, ha ha!

Your point about regional differences when it comes to word meanings is certainly apt, and probably more common than we realize.

Tom-AY-to tom-AH-to however...

Anyway, You say Carmina, I say Burana. Let's Carl the whole thing Orff

(I heard Carm-eee-na / Carm-eye-na)

... whose motto was KBO:

Churchill’s potent spirit of perseverance and determination is best summed up in one of his own maxims: “We must just KBO.” The initials stood for “Keep Buggering On.” Churchill understood the dangers of defeatism and poor morale as a soldier and leader, so he set the example needed to inspire others around him… and he kept “buggering on.”

https://winstonchurchill.org/the-life-of-churchill/life/churchill-leader-and-statesman/

I like it! And I love Churchill quotes.

He was/still is a rock star in his own right.

Churchill was a cousin.

I always understood that "bugger" was worse than the F word because it pertained by perverse sex

George V, King of England until 1936, is alleged to have said "Bugger Bognor" on his deathbed, "...in response to being told that he would soon be well enough to visit the seaside resort Bognor Regis". (Wikiquote)

So yeah. Major English guys weren't shy about expressing themselves.

In general, I think a word is OK if it isn't used as a slur against a specific targeted group.

Even words like this can be amusing and at times absolutely the right one for the situation. Just ask George. As far as last words go, not bad.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 05:20PM by Nightingale.

Messianics are definitely buggers, buggars, and buggy!

While it is certainly away from the intent of Amyjo's original post, nevertheless I find Nightingale's post to be of great interest.

The words we use in and of themselves are not "bad" by any stretch of the imagination--they are just sounds that float from our tongues and teeth. It is we humans who give meanings to the sounds we make and then determine that some are "bad" while others are not "bad", but these words were never "bad" to begin with. You (Nightingale) use the word buggar (or bugger) to illustrate this point. I'm going to illustrate the same point with a different story.

In 1972, a Hispanic band from east Los Angeles recorded a cover version of Van Morrison's "Brown-eyed Girl," and released it as a single. The song got quite a lot of airplay, especially in the Southwest. In the middle of the song between the second and third verses, there is a bass and drum break with one of the band's lead singers shouting out a "BRRRRR Kaka!" before the song enters into that third verse.

Though I didn't know it at the time, the word "kaka" is the Spanish word for shit. Shit is a word that is one of the (then) seven dirty words made famous by the late comedian George Carlin that you can't say on the radio.

Despite this knowledge, I never heard of any of the rock and top 40 stations who played this version of the song being fined or having their broadcast licenses revoked because the song contained a dirty word in it. As I thought about this, I realized that the appointed members of the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) spoke only English and had absolutely no knowledge of Spanish; hence, they would have had no knowledge that the "kaka" of the song's lyrics was the same as the shit that couldn't be said on the air. But (and this is taking this back to religion), if the members of the FCC had the supposed discernment of the LDS priesthood, then they would have known, once they heard the word "kaka" in the song's lyrics, that the El Chicano version of "Brown-eyed Girl" contained a dirty word that made it unairable on any U.S. radio stations. The fact that such discernment was not forthcoming could only mean that so-called dirty words depended only on the particularl language one spoke and the society in which one was raised and that you could be in a completely different society or speak a completely different language and the word that others considered to be dirty would have no such connotation for you.

I could say more about this subject, but I think that all of you reading this will get my point which, though related to Nightingale's post, has absolutely nothing to do with the original post offered by Amyjo.

I always enjoy reading your posts, blindguy. Your account of the Spanish word being used in the song played on American radio is a good example of what I was referencing, with an extra dimension. I was thinking of words in a person's own language. As you say, a word is given context based on its meaning as we learn it, with a large contribution by our geographical location. I am amazed it took me so long to realize that. Now you add the element of language. As you say, it's all just sounds which we ourselves give meaning to but not the same meaning from place to place or certainly in different languages and cultures.

To stay somewhat related to Mormonism, I'll add this. The title of the Mormon book 'Pearl of Great Price' sounded so poetic when I first heard it. Of course, it is used outside Mormonism too and sounds so lyrical. But now I can never hear it without instantly thinking of how it's part of the Mormon "quad". The friend who fed me to the missionaries told me that investigators were not allowed to read it as they are "supposed to be converted by the BoM" and if they read the PoGP first they will be converted too fast. Does that make any sense? And yet it sounded intriguing to me and I followed his injunction to hold off. Turns out I never read it at all.

You can often tell a person's locale, and their age, by the words they know and choose and what they mean to the speaker/writer. (Also their favourite music but that is definitely another subject). As stated, I had quite a strong reaction at seeing in a subject line here what to me is a highly profane word, especially as RfM allows swearing only in the body of a post. Others don't even realize it's on the naughty list for millions of people.

Your story, blindguy, reminded me of another example of language usage, literally. When I was living in Quebec, as a JW "missionary", one of the guys was famous for "swearing" by uttering religion-related words in French, for example, "tabernacle" he would often yell (pronounced "taber-nack") and we would all laugh. Who knows why it amused us so much. To the French, of course, it would have been highly offensive (he didn't do it in front of them). He had a good few other words too that French Catholics use for their sacred beliefs and objects. Rude, yes, because we knew that it was considered gross profanity by religious French folks to use their words that way. But not sacred to our English-speaker ears and so it didn't sound at all profane. Thus he could get away with swearing when of course as a JW it was forbidden (which we scrupulously obeyed, but only in our own language, according to our lax moral code in that regard as 20-somethings).

I know I went off track in my previous response to AmyJo's opening post that was about the unwanted pamphleting of a Jewish deli. I know it's seen by some as rude to go down a rabbit hole like that. I usually try not to do that but I think there's no harm if threads follow a meandering course, especially if there's even a tenuous link to the OP, reminiscent of an in-person conversation that wanders like a living, breathing creature and means no disrespect. I tend to be on the intense side, hyper-focused, literal, so stepping outside of bounds like this, taking a little diversion, is like a holiday for me, kind of relaxing and enjoyable, if the situation warrants and no harm is meant. So, in that way my rabbit holes are part of my recovery process (exits laughing).

You were a JW missionary? Wowsy! You joined two different cults and look how wise and mature you are today from that experience.

I appreciate your posts as well. You are an in depth thinker, and bring a different perspective.

Yeah. I'm sensitive about it. Maybe that's why I avoid calling them cults.

From being on this board, mostly, I guess I have a bit of a complex about it. Surprising how many call us double-dippers all manner of stupid. If I were feeling defensive (which I still do, to an extent) I was 16 yrs old, my family had moved out of town, I stayed behind to finish high school (amazed that Dad would let me do that and yes, danger lurked). I moved into a apt with girlfriends whose boyfriends were less than squeaky clean, known to police, and predatory (which obviously I wasn't aware of before moving in). Three bad experiences.

First, a mob fight on the lawn one late night. Strangely, to me, everyone on one side held back while one of their own was getting severely beaten up by several thugs from the other side. The victim had veered off to urinate on the grass, with his back to both groups. He got jumped from behind. I was exceptionally naive let's just say. I yelled "hey, that's not fair" and waded in to get them away from the stricken one on the ground by then. Fortunately for me perhaps we heard sirens and they all scattered.

Second, the girl who had invited me to live with them had her boyfriend overnight in the room I shared with her. Yeah, uncomfortable. Then he wanted to climb into my bed. Instead of a decided NO WAY, she encouraged him, laughing. Not funny to me. He was most persistent but I managed to fend him off.

Third, I was out of town visiting my parents and sibs and when I returned the police had been through our apartment, including searching my belongings, on suspicion of drug activity (I had no knowledge of that but it could well have been the case). I really did not like that and moved out that day, showing up at school with my little suitcase. My favourite teacher noticed my plight and kindly found me a place to stay right away. Happened to be with his mom. Who was a JW. I felt so grateful to her and we got along really well and I came to love the rest of his family as well as his mom's friends and their families. They were all JWs (not my teacher or any of her other children or her husband, from whom she was separated due to his disdain for her conversion to the WatchTower way of life).

So we talked. I was always curious about religion. I was not brought up in any specific faith, just with a vague acquaintance with the principles of Protestantism. I was wounded, for several reasons, in ways I did not realize. In talking to a woman I was fond of about her abiding faith I felt warm towards it and more than willing to attend the Kingdom Hall with her. The message I got was basic, simple, welcome, appealing, seemingly reasonable, desirable. Especially as they did not rush me to join (unlike Mormons with their investigators, as we know) I got deeper and deeper into it. They wouldn't even let me get baptized until I was 18, which gave me two yrs to inch into it, like the frog in cold water that finds itself eventually cooked. I don't usually do things by halves. Once in, I had one goal - to be a missionary (I've always been kind of that type). My idea of a huge adventure was going to Quebec, somewhere different, not all that desperately far from home, and I already knew quite a bit of French from yrs of classes at school (not that I've ever mastered the accent - it hurt to see Quebecers wince when they heard me, ha! But fair enough, I did the same when I heard their distinct French accents too - they sound way different from the Parisian French we got at school).

I loved it at first, fell in love a few times, met many people at the doors who weren't nasty to us, even got a job. For reasons I've mentioned here before, gradually I came to have serious questions about many things. Foremost was the whole women shall be silent thing. "Elders" (not the young guys as in Mormonism) had absolute authority, women cannot talk in meetings (as in give "sermons" from the podium), question men, think outside the box, make suggestions, or even "teach" a male who was getting close to being baptized without covering her head (as even unbaptized males have more authority than baptized females who are teaching them the beliefs).

Two major head-shakers got me on a plane home. One: Good friends who I was living with (I eventually realized I gotta be more careful about who I bunk with!) were newlyweds but the wife had a 3-yr old son from another relationship. The husband, who had been a good friend of mine here at home before we both went to Quebec, who I thought was so nice and pretty darn good-looking and zealous in the faith (important to me at the time) turned out to be a rigid authoritarian. He became more and more harsh with this sweet and darling little boy, who eventually started wetting the bed. I awoke early every morning to the sound of the new husband first yelling at the kid and then beating him because his bed was wet. He kept thinking the boy was doing it on purpose. Clueless. I couldn't stand it, and knew the husband just didn't understand the first thing about bed-wetting. I eventually got the courage to speak to the wife about it. She would not question him, saying "he's my husband" as if that was the end of it. For her it was. I next went to the wife of the "presiding elder", thinking she could talk to her husband who was in charge of our group. She told me they don't "interfere" in domestic matters. I think everybody knew something was wrong as that little kid got hauled out of every meeting for some imagined and exaggerated infraction and was administered hands-on punishment in full hearing. Horrific. I couldn't stand it and moved out. They never asked me why. I didn't know what I could do to help the boy. I had absolutely no clue about going to civil authorities.

Next thing was when my dad had a bad fall from a height and his severe injuries were life-threatening. When Mom called to tell me, of course right away I said I'd fly home to help out. My best friend in Quebec, who I lived with at that time (sigh) said I shouldn't go as "we're your family now". That shocked and disgusted me. As if you wouldn't walk a country mile to help a stranger, never mind help your mom and three younger sibs. At the least I could take them to the hospital every day (Mom didn't drive). And obviously I wanted to see my dad in his badly injured state in case it was curtains for him, which it very nearly was.

So, perhaps predictably, getting away and back with my family (who had by then returned to town from up country) gave me time to think and in a very short time I called to tell the local presiding elder that I quit. The guy's only question? "Have you been with a man?" The reason for that, I figured out later, was that his only concern was whether I needed to be ex'd for sexual sins or not. Nice.

I was shunned, though, as they do. Also, disfellowshipped (aka ex'd) for the mere sin of just leaving.

That wasn't enough for me though. I next went EV (with a friend - another big sigh - fundamentalist, I came to realize much later and again did not fit in). Then I made a friend at a volunteer job who happened to be Mormon. Became friends with him and his family. Rinse, repeat. Tried out their church. Some of the most hurtful of all my negative experiences with religion, as I've detailed here.

I sure know how to pick 'em. Or maybe not. Now I just read thrillers and leave the mysteries of the universe to others. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 10:51PM by Nightingale.

It's easy to get drawn in to such religions at a young age IMO. As a teen I was more open to hearing what JW had to say, and that was when I was a Mormon.

One of my cousins converted to JW from Mormonism. He credits that for saving his life at the time from drug addiction and alcohol.

He did JW for a few years, and then left that too. He was a good guy who had a hard life. He was a fine artist in his younger years, who used to sell his landscape Rocky Mountain paintings in Jackson Hole, WY.

Growing up LDS all religions were screwy; we were taught not to trust any one of them. I truly believe that's one reason why so many ex-Mormons become agnostic or atheist. After having been Mormon that cult thinking affected their ability to consider other religious creeds after getting burned so bad by a cult.

I could probably have learned to not celebrate the holidays as a JW. The not being able to accept a blood transfusion to save lives was a real turn-off for me. But when I was young and searching there was some appeal there, or I would not have welcomed a pair of JW missionaries when they came calling one day while my dad was at work.

Now I cringe at the thought of any missionary/ies from any persuasion doing that. It just feels like a violation of my personal space. I'm not one to care to discuss religion with missionaries. I sense they're there to convert, not really to listen. And I'm not there to convert them to my philosophy. Nor do I care to debate their beliefs, or feel a need to defend mine to them.

Last time JW came calling I pointed to the "no soliciting" sign on my door, and he said "But we're not selling anything." I said right back, "Oh, yes you are." They haven't been back since. ;-)

The Messianics target Jewish people. Jewish people don't try to convert anyone. Their religion forbids proselytizing. I wish Christians and Messianics would take a lesson from them for a change.

It might be the origin of the much milder, "bug off."

Time to boogy at the Buggy Wug ball ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxTZyeadI_s

interesting diversion Nightingale!

My experience of the word 'bugger' over many decades in the UK and Australia, is that it is a fairly mild swear word and quite acceptable in reasonably polite company. It actually sounds more comical than angry.

'Playing silly buggers' means being a nuisance or a deliberate hindrance.

'Bugger off!' is a more polite way of saying 'F... off!' Similarly 'Bugger!' or 'Bugger it!'.

"It's buggered!" means it is beyond repair...


'Buggery' I think, has the anal sex connotation, and may even have been the legal term for it (as an offence) in the UK.

And in all my born days I've never seen it spelt with an A!

You have now. :)

To-may-toe; to-mah-toe. I like the inflection on the second syllable when saying Buggar v. Bugger.

Especially when describing contemptuous behavior!

And yes, it is spelled both ways per the wikipedia definition above.

This reminds me when we were stationed in England.They had a briefing for us on on the differences there and certain American words that were cuss words there and our “ peace sign”, which there is vulgar when your hand is facing the opposite direction.
They never told us about the word “ stuffed” though. We use it when we’re full after eating a lot.
We went on a coach trip one time there , and were the only Snericsbs on the trip, most of them were at retirement age .
We were in a restaurant and someone asked me if I wanted his dessert, because he didn’t like blueberries. I just told him thanks, but that I was stuffed. The whole table went quiet.
They soon figured it out and politely told us it was a cuss word there. That was so embarrassing.
I do know what you mean about the messianic Jews. I thought when the messiah comes, there will be world peace, which is the opposite of what’s going on now.
There are also a lot of people considered “ messiahs”.
The Christian religion didn’t even start until after Jesus died, and the NY was written a long tine after and different books font agree with each other.

Sorry, meant that we were the only Americans on the trip, and meant NT, not NY. I’m tired, just going to bed now. My niece woke me up , calling , wanting to know whether or not to take her daughter to the ER or wait until the morning, so not checking my spelling.